36 réponses à ce sujet

[ForceXev]

Let me start by saying I'm kind of a noob with DOA.  I've been struggling to figure out exactly how you are supposed to play this game.  Traditionally in Bioware games (KOTOR, Jade Emprie, ME, ME2), I pick companion characters based entirely on who I want in my party, for story reasons or because I just like certain characters.  In DOA, it seems to me that you need to have a tank and a healer in the party, and a rogue too if you want to pick locks and disarm traps.  This makes choosing a party very restrictive.  There is really only one tank and one healer in the party (Alistair and Wynne, I don't have that golem DLC character).  If my player character is a damage-dealer, which seems most fun for me to play, I feel like I'm forced to take Alistair and Wynne with me ALL THE TIME.  This is extremely limiting, and gets really boring.  If I also want to be able to handle locks and traps, and my PC is not a rogue, I must take Zevran or Leliana as my third character.  That leaves Dog, Sten, Morrigan, and Oghren sitting in camp for the entire game.  I should just tell them all to leave.

I understand that I can retool those characters, turning Morrigan into a healer or Sten into a tank, but that feels like I'm gutting the identity of the character.  Morrigan casting heals, Sten with a shield...  it just seems ridiculous to me, story-wise.  I can also do easy stuff with a less-than-optimal group, but as soon as I go anywhere interesting and challenging, I have to bring out the A-Team.

I hope for DA2 they do something different to make party selection more flexible.  So this is part rant and part question.  If I'm doing it wrong, if there is some way to play the game successfully while having more freedom in party selection (without having to make my character the healer or tank role), please do tell.

[Elhanan]

You stick to a certain party design purposely, and ask Bioware to be more flexible?

If you are a damage dealer, take Lil for Deft Hands (or get the Lock bash mod), and try two mages to buff your melee weapon with varied spells.

There is no need to take a tank, unless you are using MMO tactics such as Taunt and the like, I guess. And many others post that a healer is not needed, though I take one or two along myself.

[miltos33]

A healer and a tank can be useful in any party but they are not really needed. It's up to you whether you want to recreate the traditional D&D party comprised of a cleric, a mage, a rogue and a warrior or perhaps come up with something more imaginative.

[DWSmiley]

The traditional party is a good choice for a first playthrough but as you get familiar with the game you'll find you dont need to play that way. I never have a traditional tank anymore and rarely use Wynne. Give Morrigan Heal and that should suffice. A rogue is handy, though, and your pc or Leli are the best choices. But you can get by without one for variety.

[demonss]

My current play through I've got an archane mage who isn't really known for tanking (at least the holding agro side) and sten as my upfront and leliana and wynne.

Prior to that, I used Leliana (I just love the character, and admittedly great for looting), Morigan (just gave her one heal for when the team needed it), Alistar, and myself as a rogue.

Next play though I plan to make an dual wielding/archer rogue with leliana, morigan and either the dog or shale.

Having one of each is definitely the easiest, but with mages being able to lock down opponents and deal pretty massive damage, or rogues sneaking into position to take out the highest damage dealing opponents first.

I will say you can go without a tank, or a mage, but it's tough to go without a rogue (simply for the ability to pick locks). That's the only one I feel is neccessary..

Heck I've heard of people "soloing" through the game (no clue what difficulty).. So if a single class can make it through the game, then a team missing one or two of the classes should be able to as well.

Modifié par demonss, 13 octobre 2010 - 04:16 .

[Benzboysl500]

You can solo the game on any level its just a matter of build and strategy... and the proper use of consumables somewhere in here I saw someone was going to try a solo naked nightmare run which sounds awful unless you were a mage I guess but even then with out boosting gear would be terrible imo.

[Addai]

DWSmiley wrote...

The traditional party is a good choice for a first playthrough but as you get familiar with the game you'll find you dont need to play that way. I never have a traditional tank anymore and rarely use Wynne. Give Morrigan Heal and that should suffice. A rogue is handy, though, and your pc or Leli are the best choices. But you can get by without one for variety.

Exactly.  I don't bother with the concept of a tank and consider a spirit healer to be mostly superfluous.  I prefer using mages as crowd control + damage dealer, and concentrating on offense with my melee fighters rather than a defensive tank.  If everything's dead fast, you don't need a tank.

You can also get by without a rogue.  I have Lock Bash mod, but even without it, chests don't have much in them and there are few places where traps are so deadly that you couldn't get by.  OTOH I think rogues are better fighters overall than warriors, so Zevran is a staple in my party.

[Liliandra Nadiar]

I found I needed a 'tank' and 'healer' until around level 14, at which point my mage had enough tricks, mana and gear to wipe out fights before they lasted too long. After the second treaty quest (Circle then Orzammar in this case) I generally had a party of my mage warden, archer Lel (unlocker/disarmer), dual stabbie Zev, and damage/hex/glyph Morrigan. Just in case, my mage had Heal/Group Heal/Revive, but they rearly got any use.

[demonss]

Addai67 wrote...
Exactly.  I don't bother with the concept of a tank and consider a spirit healer to be mostly superfluous.  I prefer using mages as crowd control + damage dealer, and concentrating on offense with my melee fighters rather than a defensive tank.  If everything's dead fast, you don't need a tank.

You can also get by without a rogue.  I have Lock Bash mod, but even without it, chests don't have much in them and there are few places where traps are so deadly that you couldn't get by.  OTOH I think rogues are better fighters overall than warriors, so Zevran is a staple in my party.

Sorry my views come from a console version of the game where I sadly can't have the lock bash mod.

So in my opinion the rogue (on console) is the only necessity if you want to loot for money and such.. I agree there's really nothing in the chests or traps that are 100% necessary..  But I still like taking it for the $$

[termokanden]

Addai67 wrote...

Exactly.  I don't bother with the concept of a tank and consider a spirit healer to be mostly superfluous.

Of course Spirit Healer is not necessary. This goes for any specialization. There are really very few things you *need*.

I am a bit surprised Group Heal is not considered very good around these parts though. It's a more powerful heal than Heal (even on a single person), but more costly. Is everybody low on mana but me?

[soteria]

Since when is group heal not considered good? I find healing in general to be a bit of a waste of time/mana, but it's a great healing spell.

@OP And yeah, the problem is mostly in your head. I'm sorry you feel like Sten can't tank and Morrigan can't heal, "story-wise," but I don't have that problem.

[Eliadur]

I choose my team members based on who is going to gain approval on where I am going It sounds meh I know, but it just proves you don't need to fulfill a specific role in order to get through - tactics trumps the traditional tank-healer-damager-utility setup anytime.

[Ashaman X]

Generally speaking, my holy trinity was myself, Alistair and Leliana. I love those two characters, but they also earn their way through the game. Alistair is a good tank and battle leader, while Leli is brilliant at lock picking, making poisons and archery. Before I could make myself an Arcane Warrior, I hung back at the end of the party, but after I got Arcane Warrior, I changed a bit. Myself and Leli were almost always central, with the others rotating based on location and expected enemies.

[termokanden]

soteria wrote...

Since when is group heal not considered good? I find healing in general to be a bit of a waste of time/mana, but it's a great healing spell.

Sure if every single one of your characters is highly optimized, you won't need healing. Otherwise, I don't see how to avoid it. It's difficult for me to optimize my characters as well early in the game, since I'm not using mods.

Unless you mean that you can just use potions. That's true.

But anyway I found blood magic and group heal to be a nice combo. Start in blood magic mode (for Blood Wound), burn through some health, switch back, group heal. By now everyone has usually taken a bit of damage. Now your health is at 100%, your mana almost at 100%. And you've healed everyone.

@OP And yeah, the problem is mostly in your head. I'm sorry you feel like Sten can't tank and Morrigan can't heal, "story-wise," but I don't have that problem.

Of course they can. At some point. If you are using the respec mod, it's easy. Without mods, it takes quite a while to develop Morrigan to be a support mage and Sten to be a good, well, anything. Zevran also starts out with no lockpicking skills, for example, so with the respec mod you do need Leliana if you want to unlock things.

Modifié par termokanden, 15 octobre 2010 - 04:55 .

[BootOnFace]

You don't ever NEED a rogue, except in a few places, like Howe's palace. I played a triple mage party with Alistair and I'd just run through everywhere again with Leli after I killed everything.

[soteria]

Sure if every single one of your characters is highly optimized, you won't need healing. Otherwise, I don't see how to avoid it. It's difficult for me to optimize my characters as well early in the game, since I'm not using mods.

Unless you mean that you can just use potions. That's true.

But anyway I found blood magic and group heal to be a nice combo. Start in blood magic mode (for Blood Wound), burn through some health, switch back, group heal. By now everyone has usually taken a bit of damage. Now your health is at 100%, your mana almost at 100%. And you've healed everyone.

I don't use mods, either. I've just found it to be more efficient in the long run to build my group around dealing and preventing damage rather than healing it. The earlier parts of the game are definitely harder, though there are mitigating factors. Grenades, for example, are relatively speaking far stronger at level 6 than they are at level 15. I could pick up Group Heal for a single point, but not having any healing forces me to think about how I approach a fight. And sure, a sufficient quantity of potions will get you through any fight. "Highly optimized" is a bit nebulous, isn't it? One person's "highly optimized" character is another's basic setup.

Another way to make Blood Magic work in low mana situations even before you get Blood Sacrifice is to drop Blood Magic, cast regen, and then turn blood magic back on. It works because the amount Regen heals for is determined at the cast time... meaning it still heals you for the full amount even if you turn blood magic on.

Of course they can. At some point. If you are using the respec mod, it's easy. Without mods, it takes quite a while to develop Morrigan to be a support mage and Sten to be a good, well, anything. Zevran also starts out with no lockpicking skills, for example, so with the respec mod you do need Leliana if you want to unlock things.

Really? I'd say Morrigan is a support mage right from the start. Most of the spells she has or can easily pick up are crowd control. Heal is a single point away... how is that "eventually"? Same with Sleep, Force Field, and Cone of Cold. In fact, I believe the only damaging spell she starts with is Winter's Grasp or whatever it's called. Sten's value (or lack thereof) is more dependant on what gear you have available than anything else. His defense will never really be that high unless you totally remake him, but in the right armor he's just fine for tanking almost all of the most dangerous enemies (dragons, revenants, etc). You have a point with Zevran, but it's not as though lockpicking is a required skill.

I wasn't talking about using a respec mod. I just disagree that you need a sword and shield warrior to tank or a dedicated spirit healer to keep your group alive. 2h in massive armor, archer in heavy armor, entropy mage with heavy CC, multiple warriors focusing enemies down quickly... the game offers many alternatives to the traditional roles.

[Jamess225]

Agreeing with Soteria...Just finished a Nightmare run in DA:O with a 2hander PC, Alistair as S&S with all points in Str for the talents, meaning he's not really tanking anything, Leliana as DW rogue and Wynne as sustainable support.

It is simply more efficient for any party to build around damage and avoidance thru talents like Warcry and the like than direct tanking...the less time you spend fighting the less damage you risk taking....

My companions were those as I felt, they'd fit my char most storywise. An easy way to struggle in this game is to neuter your Alistair by making him a traditional tank with Dex or Con...for him, just pump his Str and get him a Knight Commanders suit to wear. Sten, pump Str and he'll be sweeping groups to the ground(2h Sweep), and one hitting with Sunder Arms/Armor...do what you will with Morrigan and Wynne though max magic is always useful..

Leliana, if repeater gloves are available she'll make a great archer, if not make her a DW or a cun support with Captivating Song...a boring but pretty useful ability aswell.


-Yeah, wanted to point out that this was a playthrough with fun in mind. That's the reason I'd ever go with S&S Alistair or 2hander PC. It felt right, but efficiency speaking it's a sub par choice. But proof you can do what you like with your party and still do fine. No need for Shale archery tricks or whole DW team's.

Modifié par Jamess225, 17 octobre 2010 - 04:56 .

[termokanden]

soteria wrote...
"Highly optimized" is a bit nebulous, isn't it? One person's "highly optimized" character is another's basic setup.

Whatever you want to call it, the non-player characters can't really avoid taking a lot of damage in the beginning. You'll have bad gear first of all. But they also have low defense and none of the good skills yet. I very seriously doubt there is a strategy such that they don't take a lot of damage, other than simply leaving them out of the fight.

Really? I'd say Morrigan is a support mage right from the start.

Why? She just has random spells, some of them even Shapeshifting. Sure you can call anything support, but the really good support spells I think are the heals and Haste. That's a matter of opinion I guess, but in my opinion Wynne starts out as a better support mage, though of course after a while you can turn them into anything.

Wynne has an advantage there because she starts out with some of them. So I bring her and then build her to become a damage dealer later. Depends on the character I'm playing of course. 

how is that "eventually"?

Perhaps I should have said this, but I prefer having both Haste and Regeneration. For Morrigan, that's "eventually" (= 6 levels later). No, it's not the end of the world.

Sten's value (or lack thereof) is more dependant on what gear you have available than anything else. His defense will never really be that high unless you totally remake him

The thing is, 2h is just not that great early on. Of course gear makes a huge difference, but low strength and few talents just make 2h worthless, and you can't even fix it by giving him a tier 7 axe if you happen to have that in your backpack.

But yeah if you could respec him to DW, his defense and damage could start out higher.

Oh, and why does he only have one specialization? Isn't he bad enough already? Sten really does start out as a weakling pretending to be a fearsome warrior.

I just disagree that you need a sword and shield warrior to tank or a dedicated spirit healer to keep your group alive.

Yeah me too. But you're making it sound like healing is only needed if you don't have the skills to survive otherwise. I'm not too sure about this. Certainly you can replace healing by healing potions, but I always thought that was giving up somewhat.

While the traditional party setup is not needed, it's still strong.

Modifié par termokanden, 17 octobre 2010 - 06:17 .

[Elhanan]

I believe in the traditional party (ie; Fighter, Mage, Rogue) setup and use it quite frequently. What I fail to use or grasp is the newer MMO applications of Tanking, Agro, etc; simply not needed.

[termokanden]

If it had been easier to grab and hold aggro reliably with a tank character, it would have been extremely useful I think.



As it is now, all you really NEED is to keep people away from your mages, and that's only if they're not Arcane Warriors.

[Elhanan]

termokanden wrote...

If it had been easier to grab and hold aggro reliably with a tank character, it would have been extremely useful I think.

As it is now, all you really NEED is to keep people away from your mages, and that's only if they're not Arcane Warriors.

Agreed. Glyph of Relulsion and Stone Fist work rather well as self placed Tactical barriers, as well as the occasional Cone of Cold and/or Fireball to say, "Stay Away!".
 
No need to waste a Warrior to play as an armored-dillo....

[soteria]

If it had been easier to grab and hold aggro reliably with a tank character, it would have been extremely useful I think.

As it is now, all you really NEED is to keep people away from your mages, and that's only if they're not Arcane Warriors.

In Origins, the easiest way to do this is to have a warrior archer with Threaten on open the fight with Scattershot. It seems to have a wider radius than taunt. Anyone you missed can be grabbed with Taunt. If you don't have the armor/defense to handle the attention, turn on Defensive Fire. More traditional tanks can always grab aggro by leading the group and taunting, of course.

Whatever you want to call it, the non-player characters can't really avoid taking a lot of damage in the beginning. You'll have bad gear first of all. But they also have low defense and none of the good skills yet. I very seriously doubt there is a strategy such that they don't take a lot of damage, other than simply leaving them out of the fight.

/shrug. For the challenge of it, I don't use potions. Parts of the Korcari wilds are rough and some other fights require a plan, but it's eminently doable for an experienced player, even on nightmare.

Why? She just has random spells, some of them even Shapeshifting. Sure you can call anything support, but the really good support spells I think are the heals and Haste. That's a matter of opinion I guess, but in my opinion Wynne starts out as a better support mage, though of course after a while you can turn them into anything.

I will never understand why people complain about Morrigan's initial spells--the only truly worthless one is Spider Form. The rest are either solid spells or prerequisites to great spells. She has frost damage because her gear gives a bonus to it, and the rest of her spell selection sets her up to have a lot of crowd control in a few levels without making her overpowered the second you get her.

Otherwise, I'm going to right this off as a semantic disagreement. I consider mages in two basic types, support and damage dealing (either they're killing stuff or supporting people who are killing stuff). Given that Morrigan starts with a single damaging spell, I can't consider her anything but support.

Perhaps I should have said this, but I prefer having both Haste and Regeneration. For Morrigan, that's "eventually" (= 6 levels later). No, it's not the end of the world.

They're good spells, but as above, I don't consider them requisite for being a good support mage. You might try ignoring them sometime, though--I've found that forcing myself to pick different spells makes the game more interesting--otherwise I just end up fighting battles the same way every playthrough. It keeps the combat more fresh.

The thing is, 2h is just not that great early on. Of course gear makes a huge difference, but low strength and few talents just make 2h worthless, and you can't even fix it by giving him a tier 7 axe if you happen to have that in your backpack.

I have to disagree. I think 2h is the strongest warrior build at low levels, but some companions just have bad initial stats.

Yeah me too. But you're making it sound like healing is only needed if you don't have the skills to survive otherwise. I'm not too sure about this. Certainly you can replace healing by healing potions, but I always thought that was giving up somewhat.

I know other players have done mageless runs very successfully with minimal potion usage. One player even soloed the game without potions (no, not as a mage). I'm not crazy enough to try soloing, but I have played through without any healing before.

While the traditional party setup is not needed, it's still strong.

I don't disagree. My pet peeve, though, is people saying or being told that they need certain party members or a certain group makeup to make it through the game. Such a claim is counter-factual.

[termokanden]

soteria wrote...

/shrug. For the challenge of it, I don't use potions. Parts of the Korcari wilds are rough and some other fights require a plan, but it's eminently doable for an experienced player, even on nightmare.

I'm interested in how you can fight a high dragon for example and not heal once or use any potions.

I don't doubt it's possible, but it will require some weird tactics or a very special build I think. I doubt I could do that with a cunning-based rogue for example or a 2h warrior. But then again I've never had that as my goal so I haven't even tried.

I will never understand why people complain about Morrigan's initial spells--the only truly worthless one is Spider Form. The rest are either solid spells or prerequisites to great spells. She has frost damage because her gear gives a bonus to it, and the rest of her spell selection sets her up to have a lot of crowd control in a few levels without making her overpowered the second you get her.

I'm just not thrilled about the initial build of the NPCs in general. I always have a plan for my mages, and it usually means I have to wait many, many levels. Wynne starts out with a great spell selection if you want a healer though.

Otherwise, I'm going to right this off as a semantic disagreement.

Sure. It's not clear what "support" means.

They're good spells, but as above, I don't consider them requisite for being a good support mage. You might try ignoring them sometime, though

I do try to vary spell selections. I skipped some of the more cheesy spells for my current mage, for example.

But I never leave home without Haste if my main character is a 2h warrior. That happens to be my favorite character (for some odd reason).

I have to disagree. I think 2h is the strongest warrior build at low levels, but some companions just have bad initial stats.

I have to say I don't quite understand that. They have so few talents that they're mainly waiting for the cooldowns. You can't even have Haste early on to speed up autoattacks.

I don't disagree. My pet peeve, though, is people saying or being told that they need certain party members or a certain group makeup to make it through the game. Such a claim is counter-factual.

Yeah, no disagreements here. One of my own pet peeves though is being told you're a chump if you use healing.

[soteria]

I'm interested in how you can fight a high dragon for example and not heal once or use any potions.

I don't doubt it's possible, but it will require some weird tactics or a very special build I think. I doubt I could do that with a cunning-based rogue for example or a 2h warrior. But then again I've never had that as my goal so I haven't even tried.

Weird tactics. Sten equipped massive armor with high health regen and used a rock balm and greater warmth salve, everyone else shot arrows/cast spells like crazy. After Sten died I had Alistair taunt. It got messy. Needless to say, I had to wait till a fairly high level to do that, and Flemeth was much easier.

But I never leave home without Haste if my main character is a 2h warrior. That happens to be my favorite character (for some odd reason).

Could be the run speed. I always miss it for that reason if I don't have it.

I have to say I don't quite understand that. They have so few talents that they're mainly waiting for the cooldowns. You can't even have Haste early on to speed up autoattacks.

It doesn't matter that you lack choices--you don't have the stamina to use more than ~3-4 specials a fight at low levels. At character creation you can take sunder arms and pommel strike, and in the next two levels you can take mighty blow and indomitable. By the time you're done with the origin, a 2h warrior already has most of his best abilities (only really missing 2h sweep, in fact). Sunder armor and stunning blows improve the build slightly, but sunder armor is so expensive you wouldn't be able to afford it without deathblow in any event. DW characters have to wait a long time to be as "complete," with whirlwind and punisher both coming along much later. Same with archers and sword and shield warriors.

One of my own pet peeves though is being told you're a chump if you use healing.

I didn't mean to insult you. We all have an opinion on the "best" way to play the game, though. My opinion is that relying on healing slows fights down and makes me personally play more sloppily, making combat less fun. Ultimately, my standard for the best way to play is based on what is fun.

[Liliandra Nadiar]

termokanden wrote...

I'm interested in how you can fight a high dragon for example and not heal once or use any potions.

I don't doubt it's possible, but it will require some weird tactics or a very special build I think. I doubt I could do that with a cunning-based rogue for example or a 2h warrior. But then again I've never had that as my goal so I haven't even tried.

It's very possible, my first two play throughs, nealry all the time and always in the major battles, I completely forgot I had potions. Any of them. Health, lyrium, blams, poisons.... if it wasn't a talent, it didn't mentally pop up.

I'm just not thrilled about the initial build of the NPCs in general. I always have a plan for my mages, and it usually means I have to wait many, many levels. Wynne starts out with a great spell selection if you want a healer though.

Sure. It's not clear what "support" means.

Not too happy with most of the initial build of NPCs eaither. I tend to respec Morrigan right after getting her, though she stays a support mage, I like her to have the hexes as well as weakness. I give her the Heal spell and a tactic line to use it when ally health is 70% and 9/10ths of the time that's enough.

For my definition, damage mages kill things themselves, support mages make it easier for others to kill things. Be it by debuffing the enemy, buffing thier allies or placing mitigations on the field. (Glyphs, Force Field, Paralyze, etc)

I don't disagree. My pet peeve, though, is people saying or being told that they need certain party members or a certain group makeup to make it through the game. Such a claim is counter-factual.

Yeah, no disagreements here. One of my own pet peeves though is being told you're a chump if you use healing.

Agree there too, I may not use a dedicated healer mage anymore, but every mage that gose in my party has the Heal spell, just in case. It doesn't get used much, but better to have the option open and not need it then need it and not have it.