399 réponses à ce sujet

[Meltemph]

that a lot of players don't want to be bothered with reading in games. It is commercialization and casualization due to the realities of the mass market. If we as a culture are dumber for it, that's debatable, but I have to say we are.

Wait, so are you inferring that because people enjoy games like SC2/Halo/ect and not games that you specifically enjoy that the culture is dumber by it? So video-games is part of the lynchpin for intelligence?



Civ5/SC2 are just a couple of examples that are just as deep as anything out their, and that sold a hell of a lot of copies. So, I'm not seeing how you can infer anything from video games and intelligence or the "culture are dumber from it".

[-Semper-]

AlanC9 wrote...

Sure, but your "argument" was that's caused by the majority of game players being simple-minded, stupid, and lazy. As opposed to, say, having different tastes from you.

k, you are right. perhaps the statement was too rude. then i disconnect this and claim that the majority prefer simple games with a flat learning curve, few hours of gameplay to achieve success quickly.

Meltemph wrote...

Civ5/SC2 are just a
couple of examples that are just as deep as anything out their

civ5 will never ever reach millions of copies sold. and actually sc2 was simplyfied at multiplayer in comparison to sc1. today rpgs have to hit a greater audience to be an economic success. you can only reach this goal if you make them accessable and fast paced.

Modifié par -Semper-, 17 octobre 2010 - 09:05 .

[Archereon]

Meh. I'm against PC voicing, but that's because of a different reason entirely; it forces Bioware to make Hawke into, at the very least, a pseudo predefined character.



Its the same thing with Shepard, regardless of how you play him, he has a characteristic personality that transcends alignment, epitomized in the fact that "but thou must" dialogues (one that Shepard automatically says, such as those you see in the middle of gameplay) are possible without breaking character. Its possible for a full paragon to make a renegade comment (or in Mass Effect 1, to go around insulting everyone and being plain mean while still taking the moral highground decisions) without sounding out of character (just angry) except in extreme cases.



This is the problem I forsee with Hawke. Bioware really has two options if they're voicing Hawke: Give him 3 (or more if they'd like) potential personalities (and only three) that clash severely with each other, or give him a semi-predefined personality like Shepard, since its really not possible to give such a character a largely null and up for player interpretation personality.

[AlanC9]

I can see where it comes from. Back in the day computer games, like computers themselves, were only for people who positively liked recreation where you have to know and integrate all sorts of disparate, confusing, and poorly-documented information. You'd also need high intelligence so that your top complexity threshold wasn't too low for the games to be out of range for you; otherwise you'd stick with jigsaw puzzles or some such.



Nowadays you don't have to like that sort of thing to play video games. So that brings a lot more people into the gaming world. Some of them probably are too stupid to enjoy, say, BG2. Some are plenty intelligent enough but don't like that sort of game. Some would like that sort of game but they like other games a lot more.



That's assuming we want to call BG2 complex. I found it kind of simple, myself, so I guess I'm floating above this whole debate.

[Meltemph]

and actually sc2 was simplyfied at multiplayer in comparison to sc1

Based on what? I've played both and I would say there is least as much to SC2.

Also, Civ4 sold 6million worldwide. If Civ 5 does half that good it is still selling 3 million.

Modifié par Meltemph, 17 octobre 2010 - 09:10 .

[Archereon]

AlanC9 wrote...

I can see where it comes from. Back in the day computer games, like computers themselves, were only for people who positively liked recreation where you have to know and integrate all sorts of disparate, confusing, and poorly-documented information. You'd also need high intelligence so that your top complexity threshold wasn't too low for the games to be out of range for you; otherwise you'd stick with jigsaw puzzles or some such.

Nowadays you don't have to like that sort of thing to play video games. So that brings a lot more people into the gaming world. Some of them probably are too stupid to enjoy, say, BG2. Some are plenty intelligent enough but don't like that sort of game. Some would like that sort of game but they like other games a lot more.

That's assuming we want to call BG2 complex. I found it kind of simple, myself, so I guess I'm floating above this whole debate.

Ultimately, the economic questions that need to be asked when making a decision between a "complex in depth hardcore rawr rawr uber hard, harder than early nintendo titles, for elitist" game, or a "lololololololololol casualz for eziesi and bejwld playurz" game, or something in between (which honestly, is where most games fall) is whether or not there is a market for such games, how large that market is, is it sustainable, and what competition are you facing.

These decisions are a lot more complicated than they think.

[Awildawn]

In the case of Dragon Age 2, voice over will juste ensure that the main character can pronounce sentences that are more than 100 or so characters long (remember the toolset limitations). Beside, any game that offers a codex as long as the ones from ME or DaO cannot be culturally dumbed down, it's a lot of data to process.

Nowadays, I feel that most game mechanics are dumbed down/streamlined but I'm not sure whether it's true for game stories or not.

[upsettingshorts]

While I'll dispute using the usefulness of using the phrase "dumbing down" at all, I should point out that some games do have legitimate GUI and player feedback issues that could absolutely use streamlining. The terms shouldn't be used interchangeably.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 17 octobre 2010 - 09:18 .

[-Semper-]

Meltemph wrote...

and actually sc2 was simplyfied at multiplayer in comparison to sc1

Based on what? I've played both and I would say there is least as much to SC2.

- multi build select (easier macro)
- multi unit select (easier micro)
- clever unit ai (e.g. they circle units automatically which results in almost no high apm needed)
- no black maps (you see the entire map from the start)
- units can easily walk above clips (no real tactis needed, no clever ramp tactics at all)
- through neutral units you can easily lock map control
- fewer tactis available

imo it's casualized.

Modifié par -Semper-, 17 octobre 2010 - 09:27 .

[Meltemph]

Making the game better, to allow more strategic control, improving ai, and adding better micro management and allowing more attack options, is in fact, having less tactics, and making the game more casual, to you? I really don't get how you come to your conclusions, so, have fun with that mindset, I guess, cause I don't get it at all...

[upsettingshorts]

And I think Starcraft-like RTS are silly nonsense. See how we can all play this game, and how totally pointless getting into a relativistic discussion over what's smarter and dumber gets us nowhere?



How about we get back on topic. You know. Voiceovers?

[-Semper-]

Meltemph wrote...

Making the game better, to allow more strategic control, improving ai, and adding better micro management and allowing more attack options

it's casualized. there are players who TRAINED years to master micro in sc1. now even a monkey can control an army in sc2 - it's just select and mouse click. also in battles there is no micro needed because there are no overkills. in sc1 you were able to break the stone-scissor-paper system through clever unit control. now that's all gone. there are no real tactis, no real skill needed - yes, i call this casual

Modifié par -Semper-, 17 octobre 2010 - 09:36 .

[nightcobra]

-Semper- wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

Making the game better, to allow more strategic control, improving ai, and adding better micro management and allowing more attack options

it's casualized. there are players who TRAINED years to master micro in sc1. now even a monkey can control an army in sc2 - it's just select and mouse click. also in battles there is no micro needed because there are no overkills. in sc1 you were able to break the stone-scissor-paper system through clever unit control. now that's all gone. there are no real tactis, no real skill needed - yes, i call this casual

difficulty for me it's best when it's against a very intelligent A.I or human player and not to work around the systems limitations. if that is casual then i'm okay with it

[krasnoarmeets]

It's not elitism, it's not the superiority of the older generation. We have been around a bit longer and have a little bit more perspective than the younger ones, however. Some would call it wisdom, others experience. At any rate, the fact of the matter is that the mob are simple folk who can't be bothered reading and using their imagination. They want all their i's dotted and their t's crossed and modern developers seem only to happy to do that for them, as that's the market they want to tap into. It's about economics and mass marketing after all, not pleasing everyone. You younger people don't mind the voice over as it's what you're used to . I don't mind it either, but I just don't think it should be so limiting. Typically the average person doesn't read books, they watch television instead, which I think is rather tragic is all. Thankfully, my young sons are encouraged to read and are barred from watching hours upon hours of TV. As a result they are both above their classes' reading age. Expand your mind and your imagination.

[TheMufflon]

krasnoarmeets wrote...

It's not elitism

At any rate, the fact of the matter is that the mob are simple folk who can't be bothered reading and using their imagination

Yeah, that's elitism. Oh, and when you're looking down on people for not reading you might want to consider proof-reading what you've written. Grammatical mistakes can be quite embarassing in that context.

Modifié par TheMufflon, 17 octobre 2010 - 09:59 .

[The Masked Rog]

krasnoarmeets wrote...

It's not elitism, it's not the superiority of the older generation. We have been around a bit longer and have a little bit more perspective than the younger ones, however. Some would call it wisdom, others experience. At any rate, the fact of the matter is that the mob are simple folk who can't be bothered reading and using their imagination. They want all their i's dotted and their t's crossed and modern developers seem only to happy to do that for them, as that's the market they want to tap into. It's about economics and mass marketing after all, not pleasing everyone. You younger people don't mind the voice over as it's what you're used to . I don't mind it either, but I just don't think it should be so limiting. Typically the average person doesn't read books, they watch television instead, which I think is rather tragic is all. Thankfully, my young sons are encouraged to read and are barred from watching hours upon hours of TV. As a result they are both above their classes' reading age. Expand your mind and your imagination.

Reading is good. I like reading It develops the imagination, etc... But that has nothing to do with TV. TV also develops the imagination. My younger cousins pretend to be wizards and kings and battle against each other. They create awesome plots in their heads and they don't even know how to read. Guess where they get these things from? Television.

[-Semper-]

TheMufflon wrote...

Yeah, that's elitism. Oh, and when you're looking down on people for not reading you might want to consider proof-reading what you've written. Grammatical mistakes can be quite embarassing in that context.

there are many users here whose mother tongue ain't english...

[Ortaya Alevli]

Just wanted to drop in and point out that being an outstanding gamer doesn't necessarily mean one will always seek challenge. You can breeze through any game of any genre in the hardest difficulty easily and yet may simply wish to indiscriminately kill a bunch of stupid cannon fodder or raze a few buildings to blow off steam. I wouldn't want my RPGs easy myself but I wouldn't mind an "easy" difficulty for people who just want to spend an hour or so with the game casually in order to relieve tension while having a "hard" difficulty for players like me who want a challenge, either.

On topic, yeah, voiceover is incredibly important when it comes to game difficulty. Yes, I know it makes no sense. The thread has derailed so bad, I can't even think of a way to tie things up.

[Morroian]

-Semper- wrote...

it's casualized. there are players who TRAINED years to master micro in sc1.

So what, micro management in RTSs is repetive and boring and aimed at twitch players. Streamlining such tasks has been a good thing in RTSs since SC1. It allows players to focus more on the overall battle strategy and actually use their brains instead of reflexes.

krasnoarmeets wrote...

It's not elitism, it's not the superiority of the older generation. We have been around a bit longer and have a little bit more perspective than the younger ones, however.

LMAO, yeah you are being elitist.

[upsettingshorts]

krasnoarmeets wrote...
Some would call it wisdom, others experience. At any rate, the fact of the matter is that the mob are simple folk who can't be bothered reading and using their imagination.

Experience can teach the wrong lesson.  Assuming oneself to be wise is benign overconfidence at best, hubris at worst.  What matters is critical thinking, which I'm going to attempt to apply to the rest of your post. 

krasnoarmeets wrote...
They want all their i's dotted and their t's crossed and modern developers seem only to happy to do that for them, as that's the market they want to tap into.

Overlooking your overgeneralized assumption, what is the problem with games with complete interfaces that provide the player with feedback on what is expected of them, and what the features are for?  Many - but not all - older games that are placed on a pedestal through the power of nostalgia did nothing of the sort.

krasnoarmeets wrote...
It's about economics and mass marketing after all, not pleasing everyone.

We agree.

krasnoarmeets wrote...
You younger people don't mind the voice over as it's what you're used to .

As Sylvius has been clever enough to point out in our debates, voiceovers - specifically of the kind we're talking about - are new and are most definitely not something I am used to, and I'm only 25.  My argument is that based on the way I've always approached CRPGs, the fact I would eventually enjoy the introduction of voiceovers to games was inevitable.  It is not a stretch to imagine that I am not alone, but I wouldn't go so far as to make such an statement without qualification.

krasnoarmeets wrote...
Typically the average person doesn't read books, they watch television instead, which I think is rather tragic is all.

Overlooking your overgeneralized assumption, there's plenty of books out there that are absolute trash mindless entertainment and plenty of television out there that is brilliant and thought provoking.  Your implied demonization of an entire medium in stating that it is somehow beneath you forces me to question your sense of perspective.

krasnoarmeets wrote...
Thankfully, my young sons are encouraged to read and are barred from watching hours upon hours of TV. As a result they are both above their classes' reading age. Expand your mind and your imagination.

There's a lot I can say here, generally or personally, but suffice to say that it is entirely possible to read books and enjoy television.  Furthermore, limiting ones imagination to select sources of inspiration strikes me as counterproductive.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 17 octobre 2010 - 10:31 .

[Meltemph]

 We have been around a bit longer and have a little bit more perspective than the younger ones, however.

Not just because one is older, though.  I have plenty of people who work under me that are probably older then anyone on these boards, and I would not go to them for advice or recommend anyone doing so.

Some would call it wisdom, others experience.

Age does not necessitate wisdom, however wisdom does come with age, but to assume you have it,because you view your perspective as better, is foolish.

At any rate, the fact of the matter is that the mob are simple folk who can't be bothered reading and using their imagination. They want all their i's dotted and their t's crossed and modern developers seem only to happy to do that for them, as that's the market they want to tap into.

Making massive generalizations to make your own opinion seem superior and then claiming you are not doing that, but just have, "more perspective"?  Ya, alright, whatever you think adds credibility to your opinion and makes another's incorrect, I guess.

It's about economics and mass marketing after all, not pleasing everyone. You younger people don't mind the voice over as it's what you're used to . I don't mind it either, but I just don't think it should be so limiting. Typically the average person doesn't read books, they watch television instead, which I think is rather tragic is all. Thankfully, my young sons are encouraged to read and are barred from watching hours upon hours of TV. As a result they are both above their classes' reading age. Expand your mind and your imagination.

Video games are an interactive medium, specifically for entertainment, if you look to video games to "expand your mind", well that is a whole other issue.  Also, if you think imagination is limited by the content in front of you, then you are limiting imagination, not the game, and sounds more like you are trying to tell people "what" to imagine or at least how to.

Excess entertainment in any medium is unhealthy, I agree, but trying to get on a soapbox, over what games one person enjoys over the other, and how people are less intelligent because they don't enjoy video games the same way you do, is just plain ridiculous.

Modifié par Meltemph, 17 octobre 2010 - 10:42 .

[TheMufflon]

-Semper- wrote...

there are many users here whose mother tongue ain't english...

I am well aware of this. I am, in fact, one of them. krasnoarmeets, however, is not.

[krasnoarmeets]

Don't get me wrong, I like certain aspects of television. I don't discount the entire medium, I restrict its viewing with regard to my children who are 8 and 9, as there is so much questionable content displayed. For the most part, the general viewing content is dross. Everyone generalises to some extent and I agree with the counter arguments about there being crap books and crap television, outstanding books and outstanding television. 

Upsettingshorts wrote...

krasnoarmeets wrote...
Thankfully, my young sons are encouraged to read and are barred from watching hours upon hours of TV. As a result they are both above their classes' reading age. Expand your mind and your imagination.

There's a lot I can say here, generally or personally, but suffice to say that it is entirely possible to read books andenjoy television. Furthermore, limiting ones imagination to select sources of inspiration strikes me as counterproductive. 

I agree entirely. I don’t bar them from watching television altogether, I merely restrict the viewing content and limit its duration. I filter it. Many parents don't. 

I don't, however, recall making personal attacks against anyone or belittling their points of view, so in that I am vindicated with respect to maturity, TheMufflon. 

Modifié par krasnoarmeets, 17 octobre 2010 - 11:42 .

[Meltemph]

 recall making personal attacks against anyone or belittling their points of view

Have not been belittling others view points?

I think it stunts the imagination because it does everything for you.

You said this about people who prefer vo's or at least said this about their "point of view".  I would call that far from objective or with any proper assessment of such an opinion and seems quite judgmental, to me.

In my opinion these modern RPGs are just making people too lazy, filling in all the creative blanks for them, dulling their minds to the possibilities of where their own imagination can take them.

If people like these type of "modern RPG's" over the older ones you are inferring that people are, at least in terms of the games they like, lazy and have "duller minds".   Yes, wisdom and maturity, thy name is... Essentially making character estimates over a video game, yes very mature and wise.

 The imagination of this younger generation of gamers has suffered as a result. There's too much VO in modern games. Before you know it the younger generation won't read anything anymore.

As close to an insult as one can get w/o actually saying it, because "you people", prefer a certain type of video game...  I've been playing games since atari, do not assume younger gamers are the only ones who wan't this.  Specially when all these "younger gamers" that the industry is looking to go after are about 34, that are driving the industry.

http://www.theesa.com/facts/index.asp

 is that the mob are simple folk who can't be bothered reading and using their imagination. They want all their i's dotted and their t's crossed and modern developers seem only to happy to do that for them, as that's the market they want to tap into.

So people who like a certain type of game and the people that these companies are going after are, simple folk that can't be bothered using their minds, essentially, because they don't like the games you like? Then you say you are not trying to belittle a point of view?  How can you claim that in good conscious?

 

Typically the average person doesn't read books, they watch television instead, which I think is rather tragic is all. Thankfully, my young sons are encouraged to read and are barred from watching hours upon hours of TV. As a result they are both above their classes' reading age. Expand your mind and your imagination.

I'm not even sure what you are trying to infer with this point, but I can only assume it has something to do with the degradation of society and that is the explanation for the type of games "the simple mob folk", enjoy.

so in that I am vindicated with respect to maturity.

Debatable...

Modifié par Meltemph, 18 octobre 2010 - 12:03 .

[Morrigans God son]

I hate voice overs.