399 réponses à ce sujet

[Schneidend]

Brockololly wrote...

Totally agree, especially with regards to having the PC voiced. If I just selected what my PC is going to say, why should I have to have it regurgitated back all over again- its just redundant and boring.

The options you choose from in Dragon Age 2 won't be repeated by Hawke's voice. You're choosing the gist of the response, and Hawke says the whole thing. It worked wonders for Mass Effect 1 & 2

[AlanC9]

In Exile wrote...
You like BG more? There's something incredibly dated about the game. I played it once, because I felt like I wanted to see what all the experience was about, but it really is not a fun game. The companions are very rudementary (and work on a timer, apparently); the combat is spell & counterspell, brought to you by Trial and Error through Each Encounter...

Yeah, they're mostly on timers. It can result in some really bizarre timing with romance conversations.

The spell system doesn't have to be learned by trial and error. The manual's actually pretty good at describing what you need to do, if you can stand to read all those spells and do your own analysis. The big exception is monster abilities -- a new player probably won't realize that dragons' most powerful ability is Fear, for instance, or that the breath weapon type is determined by color.

But overall, yeah, I found the game kind of dated too. Or rather, "find", since I'm currently 2/3 through ToB on a new playthrough. I suppose I'll wrap that up this weekend, though I've been planning to do that for weeks.

[In Exile]

AlanC9 wrote...
The spell system doesn't have to be learned by trial and error. The manual's actually pretty good at describing what you need to do, if you can stand to read all those spells and do your own analysis. The big exception is monster abilities -- a new player probably won't realize that dragons' most powerful ability is Fear, for instance, or that the breath weapon type is determined by color.

I should have clarified. What I meant was, each encounter is trial and error. It might be my ignorance of D&D, but playing through the game the first time and not knowing what encounters you're going to face means you don't know how to optimize (i.e. where to buy spells for your wizards, the equipment, etc.).

There's the confused aimless wandering in BG, and the wolves of doom ™. The plot in BG is actually very threadbare until very close to the end. BG II is where Bioware really jumps off into their writing and development, but for me it is hard to look at that game and not see an element where Bioware exported the feature, better and more polished.

[MerinTB]

I read text fast. It makes the game go faster.
On replays it makes the game far more enjoyable being able to skip stuff I already know well.

I did do a play of ME and ME2 with the subtitles disabled. It was a different experience, to be certain, and for what ME is I found that more enjoyable than reading the subtitles.

But given ME or, say, Wasteland... I'll take Wasteland, thanks.

I know it's been said ad naseum, if I wanted to WATCH A MOVIE, I'd put in a movie and put down the mouse and push away the keyboard.

Heck, if I wanted a more cinematic experience, I'd take away the dialog-choice delays and do a game with more involved cut-scenes, like say Final Fantasy XIII.

This blend towards a middle is a middle I'm not comfortable be.

Just my preference. Other people's do vary.

Modifié par MerinTB, 13 octobre 2010 - 04:46 .

[Addai]

Brockololly wrote...

Gecon wrote...

Well what I found out is that not only can I read faster than people speak, but also I try reading even faster just to get rid of that annoying talking person who feeds me silly crap I dont care about at all.

Totally agree, especially with regards to having the PC voiced. If I just selected what my PC is going to say, why should I have to have it regurgitated back all over again- its just redundant and boring.

Agreed.  My character's response is in my head, having to watch it pulls me out of the moment and is boring to boot.  I just want to get on with it and get antsy having to listen to the voiced protagonist echo everything.

[Leonia]

MerinTB wrote...

I read text fast. It makes the game go faster.
On replays it makes the game far more enjoyable being able to skip stuff I already know well.

I did do a play of ME and ME2 with the subtitles disabled. It was a different experience, to be certain, and for what ME is I found that more enjoyable than reading the subtitles.

But given ME or, say, Wasteland... I'll take Wasteland, thanks.

I know it's been said ad naseum, if I wanted to WATCH A MOVIE, I'd put in a movie and put down the mouse and push away the keyboard.

Heck, if I wanted a more cinematic experience, I'd take away the dialog-choice delays and do a game with more involved cut-scenes, like say Final Fantasy XIII.

This blend towards a middle is a middle I'm not comfortable be.

Just my preference. Other people's do vary.

Well, one could also say "If I wanted to read a novel, I'd read a novel!"

But I get the sentiment of your post. To each their own. That's the wonderful thing about players, no two are the same. We're all a little like snowflakes.. wait.. no, that's not quite the analogy I was after.

[Addai]

Schneidend wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

Totally agree, especially with regards to having the PC voiced. If I just selected what my PC is going to say, why should I have to have it regurgitated back all over again- its just redundant and boring.

The options you choose from in Dragon Age 2 won't be repeated by Hawke's voice. You're choosing the gist of the response, and Hawke says the whole thing. It worked wonders for Mass Effect 1 & 2

Says you.  I hated it, especially since neither of the VO's fit what I would have wanted as my Shepard.  I tried to play a female Shepard, gave up because the butch thing really annoyed me, and played a male because the voice was better, but he was so dull and wooden that I ended up tossing the game aside.  It wasn't the only thing I didn't like about ME, but the VO was a real drawback.

[Addai]

leonia42 wrote...

But I get the sentiment of your post. To each their own. That's the wonderful thing about players, no two are the same. We're all a little like snowflakes.. wait.. no, that's not quite the analogy I was after.

The problem is that Bioware seems to have decided that some snowflakes are flakier than others.

[John Epler]

Addai67 wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

But I get the sentiment of your post. To each their own. That's the wonderful thing about players, no two are the same. We're all a little like snowflakes.. wait.. no, that's not quite the analogy I was after.

The problem is that Bioware seems to have decided that some snowflakes are flakier than others.

I'm certainly not discounting the idea that non-VO'd characters have merit. In some games, certainly. I can think of at least a few titles where I either greatly enjoyed the lack of VO, or I felt that the VO was unnecessary to my enjoyment and ended up skipping a lot of it.

For DA2, however, we've decided that VO fits what we want to do with the title. I'm not saying you should never disagree with us (because what fun would a forum be where everyone agreed all the time?) but in this case, we will have to agree to disagree. Which isn't to say you should stop sharing your opinion - far from it! I do enjoy reading what everyone has to say, and I know I'm not alone.

[Brockololly]

Schneidend wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

Totally agree, especially with regards to having the PC voiced. If I just selected what my PC is going to say, why should I have to have it regurgitated back all over again- its just redundant and boring.

The options you choose from in Dragon Age 2 won't be repeated by Hawke's voice. You're choosing the gist of the response, and Hawke says the whole thing. It worked wonders for Mass Effect 1 & 2

And thus thats my problem with the paraphrase system- you're only guessing what the PC is going to say. Thats fine in third person narrative like ME. But in DA2 its supposed to be a first person narrative like Origins- so I shouldn't have to guess what Hawke is going to say if I'm supposed to be fully in control of that character.

Now if the paraphrases are really good, that can mitigate the issue. BUt another reason I love the full text is that you can read all of the possible responses and just appreciate all of them even if you don't pick that one. So maybe I have no intention of choosing the jerk-face response, but at least I can read it and see that its there- can't do that with the VO wheel.

Modifié par Brockololly, 13 octobre 2010 - 05:12 .

[Brockololly]

JohnEpler wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
The problem is that Bioware seems to have decided that some snowflakes are flakier than others.

I'm certainly not discounting the idea that non-VO'd characters have merit. In some games, certainly. I can think of at least a few titles where I either greatly enjoyed the lack of VO, or I felt that the VO was unnecessary to my enjoyment and ended up skipping a lot of it.

For DA2, however, we've decided that VO fits what we want to do with the title. I'm not saying you should never disagree with us (because what fun would a forum be where everyone agreed all the time?) but in this case, we will have to agree to disagree. Which isn't to say you should stop sharing your opinion - far from it! I do enjoy reading what everyone has to say, and I know I'm not alone.

I get what you're saying but from the outside looking in at BioWare it sure seems that you're trying to make full VO with the dialogue wheel and pushing the whole "cinematic" angle into each of your games now. And thats fine, but for myself its a bit disappointing as one of the reasons I enjoyed Origins so much was that it played differently than ME and presented itself differently than ME. I don't think DA2 will be some ME clone, but when TOR and now DA2 adopt ME's "cinematic" angle with voiced PC and everything, you'll have to pardon my skepticism that I think you guys will ever go back to the silent PC. And its that loss of diversity in how the game is presented that disappoints me most.

[TheBlackBaron]

Doesn't The Witcher 2 have a wheel with the entire phrase written out instead of a paraphrase? Or am I thinking of another game?



Or did I just totally make that up?

[Brockololly]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Doesn't The Witcher 2 have a wheel with the entire phrase written out instead of a paraphrase? Or am I thinking of another game?

Or did I just totally make that up?

I'm not sure about the Witcher 2, but I was reading somewhere that in Deus Ex: Human Revolution they're going to have a similar dialogue wheel, with the option to see the text if you want- so if you want to be surprised with the paraphrases you can, or if you want the full text you've got the full text.

And here is the relevent quote from the Joystiq article on Deus Ex I just linked to:

When given a choice in the conversation, you'll see big key words appear on the screen, not unlike in Mass Effect. A quick glance should give you an idea of the end result, but Human Revolution goes a step further by providing your full response at the bottom of  the screen. That way, there's no confusion over what your character will say when selecting an option.

Modifié par Brockololly, 13 octobre 2010 - 05:22 .

[DPB]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Doesn't The Witcher 2 have a wheel with the entire phrase written out instead of a paraphrase? Or am I thinking of another game?

It doesn't have a wheel, but it does have paraphrases. The first game has the full responses written out which Geralt then repeats after you've selected one.

[The Hardest Thing In The World]

Brockololly wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Doesn't The Witcher 2 have a wheel with the entire phrase written out instead of a paraphrase? Or am I thinking of another game?

Or did I just totally make that up?

I'm not sure about the Witcher 2, but I was reading somewhere that in Deus Ex: Human Revolution they're going to have a similar dialogue wheel, with the option to see the text if you want- so if you want to be surprised with the paraphrases you can, or if you want the full text you've got the full text.

I'd prefer this.

[Meltemph]

I love all the comments that seem to infer "My tastes are superior because it requires more character", crap. Only on forums can you see such over attachment and resentment, for not liking the same thing, when it comes to this kind of stuff.



Some people like 1 style of video games over the next, it does not in anyway make your preferences better and does not make the game worse for not only using your preferences. For instance, I do not like filler content in games(Chantry boards for instance and things of that nature) but I'm not about to say that liking them means you have bad taste or that it is ruining the game by putting resources in something that will take away from parts of the game I like, just to fill the likes of others.



I realize they are trying to please as many as possible, and I don't expect to be the "only sparkle in their eye", and that I don't own a corner of a market due to my own personal preferences.



It seems to me that some expect every game a certain company makes to be aimed specifically at them, either because of brand loyalty or expectations. Or even expect that the industry must pay them attention and I just find that a bit silly.

[John Epler]

Brockololly wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
The problem is that Bioware seems to have decided that some snowflakes are flakier than others.

I'm certainly not discounting the idea that non-VO'd characters have merit. In some games, certainly. I can think of at least a few titles where I either greatly enjoyed the lack of VO, or I felt that the VO was unnecessary to my enjoyment and ended up skipping a lot of it.

For DA2, however, we've decided that VO fits what we want to do with the title. I'm not saying you should never disagree with us (because what fun would a forum be where everyone agreed all the time?) but in this case, we will have to agree to disagree. Which isn't to say you should stop sharing your opinion - far from it! I do enjoy reading what everyone has to say, and I know I'm not alone.

I get what you're saying but from the outside looking in at BioWare it sure seems that you're trying to make full VO with the dialogue wheel and pushing the whole "cinematic" angle into each of your games now. And thats fine, but for myself its a bit disappointing as one of the reasons I enjoyed Origins so much was that it played differently than ME and presented itself differently than ME. I don't think DA2 will be some ME clone, but when TOR and now DA2 adopt ME's "cinematic" angle with voiced PC and everything, you'll have to pardon my skepticism that I think you guys will ever go back to the silent PC. And its that loss of diversity in how the game is presented that disappoints me most.

And that's certainly a fair concern. Homogeneity in game design is not, for most people in the industry, a desireable goal. Though I think that, aside from the introduction of the dialogue wheel, DA2 and the ME series are still rather distinct in presentation. At least on the Cinematic Design side, I feel as though we treat both series differently. It's hard to describe without spoiling something that will get me a stern talkin' to, but in a more general sense - the writing teams are still very distinct. Both series have their own flavour in both dialogue and cinematically.

I think what it comes down to, honestly, is the idea of being immersed in the story versus the idea of being immersed in the PC. The former will be far more accepting of a voiced protagonist, as the thing they're the most interested in is not their own PC, but rather the characters and story as a whole. The latter attaches a lot more importance to their own character - it serves as a representation of 'themselves' within the world that the game creates. They tend to be more leery of a voiced PC - after all, it's not their voice, and that can cause some dissonance.

Of course, I could be completely off-base  But I don't think that using a voiced protagonist in DA2 is a sign that we're going to turn all our games into the same sort of thing. I still feel that ME2 and DA2 (to use the most recent examples) are fundamentally different - and I've spent about a year and a half with both franchises at this point. So I feel like I can make that judgment  I'm rambling at this point, though.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

Also, seriously, you're against all VO in-game?

I am.  At least, I don't generally think voice-over in games is worth the cost.

In Exile wrote...

You like BG more?

I do.  It's one of my top-5 all-time games.

There's something incredibly dated about the game. I played it once, because I felt like I wanted to see what all the experience was about, but it really is not a fun game.

It's not a game at all.  It's an RPG.

Playing BG is a great way to see that distinction I keep making.

I can see how Bioware became the company that it is from having produced BG/BG2, but I absolutely do not think this game stands up well to the scrutiny of time.

It offered roleplaying freedom.  Right at the start of Chapter 1, just outside Candlekeep, what do you do?  The answer to that question is reached through roleplaying.  What does your character think the best course of action is right then?  He's free to do it, almost regardless of what it is (he can't throw himself into the sea in despair, for example).  He's standing on a road, somewhere just south of where he was ambushed the night before.  What does he do?  What does he want to do?  What does think is going on?

[Addai]

Brockololly wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
The problem is that Bioware seems to have decided that some snowflakes are flakier than others.

I'm certainly not discounting the idea that non-VO'd characters have merit. In some games, certainly. I can think of at least a few titles where I either greatly enjoyed the lack of VO, or I felt that the VO was unnecessary to my enjoyment and ended up skipping a lot of it.

For DA2, however, we've decided that VO fits what we want to do with the title. I'm not saying you should never disagree with us (because what fun would a forum be where everyone agreed all the time?) but in this case, we will have to agree to disagree. Which isn't to say you should stop sharing your opinion - far from it! I do enjoy reading what everyone has to say, and I know I'm not alone.

I get what you're saying but from the outside looking in at BioWare it sure seems that you're trying to make full VO with the dialogue wheel and pushing the whole "cinematic" angle into each of your games now. And thats fine, but for myself its a bit disappointing as one of the reasons I enjoyed Origins so much was that it played differently than ME and presented itself differently than ME. I don't think DA2 will be some ME clone, but when TOR and now DA2 adopt ME's "cinematic" angle with voiced PC and everything, you'll have to pardon my skepticism that I think you guys will ever go back to the silent PC. And its that loss of diversity in how the game is presented that disappoints me most.

Yes, what Brock said.  The marketing has been "this is where games are going," and with both DA and ME franchises doing things this way, it doesn't sound like a case of "this is what works best for this particular game."  I would be happy if you proved us wrong!

[The Masked Rog]

It offered roleplaying freedom.  Right at the start of Chapter 1, just outside Candlekeep, what do you do?  The answer to that question is reached through roleplaying.  What does your character think the best course of action is right then?  He's free to do it, almost regardless of what it is (he can't throw himself into the sea in despair, for example).  He's standing on a road, somewhere just south of where he was ambushed the night before.  What does he do?  What does he want to do?  What does think is going on?

That right there completely cut me out of the game. I had little idea of what I should do. My character was basically a pile of nerves that couldn't hold himself together because he had no idea what he should do next, since the game provided so little guidance. Needless to say he died in the very next encounter. Now that was great fun...:innocent: 

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

There's the confused aimless wandering in BG

That confusion - that lack of awareness of what's happening and why - that's BG's story.  And because that confusion will be so specific to the PC's personality, that's what makes it a great RPG.

The plot in BG is actually very threadbare until very close to the end.

This is a massive strength of the game.

[Reclusiarch]

I personally love that this game will have a voiced Player Character. Awesome!

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In Exile wrote...

There's the confused aimless wandering in BG

That confusion - that lack of awareness of what's happening and why - that's BG's story.  And because that confusion will be so specific to the PC's personality, that's what makes it a great RPG.

The plot in BG is actually very threadbare until very close to the end.

This is a massive strength of the game.

Exactly, also areas of the world aren't all confined to a 24x24 space with the "EPIC GRAPHICS"  A forest in BG or BG2 actually has the size and feel of a forest which makes the scope of the game that much better. They just don't make RPG's like that anymore, and it makes me a sad panda.

[Meltemph]

It's not a game at all. It's an RPG.

A game is a structured activity, usually undertaken for enjoyment



umm...

[The Masked Rog]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In Exile wrote...

There's the confused aimless wandering in BG

That confusion - that lack of awareness of what's happening and why - that's BG's story.  And because that confusion will be so specific to the PC's personality, that's what makes it a great RPG.

The plot in BG is actually very threadbare until very close to the end.

This is a massive strength of the game.

Exactly, also areas of the world aren't all confined to a 24x24 space with the "EPIC GRAPHICS"  A forest in BG or BG2 actually has the size and feel of a forest which makes the scope of the game that much better. They just don't make RPG's like that anymore, and it makes me a sad panda.

What about the dead trenches in DA:O. NOw that was a large area. Not that I really enjoyed it, too much walking around fighting and not enough meaty plot sequences or cool cutscenes.