399 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

maxernst wrote...

Huh? Baldur's Gate's "forests" were meadows with occasional clumps of trees.  And they really weren't all that big either.

True, but the areas are somewhat larger than DAO areas. However,  movement rates in the IE are much faster than in DAO, so a party can cross the Slums District in Athkatla faster than a party can cross the Market District in Denerim.

[AngryFrozenWater]

I am not against voice acted PCs. VA can make the PC come alive. FemShep is a character that if it wasn't for her voice actress would totally suck. Click the links in my sig and see how voice acting can help portrait a believable character and make it come alive (both genders). That said, to me if there was no FemShep and only MaleShep was available then I rather have a PC without a voice. You might not agree, but his current VA adds little to the character. And of course voice acting the way BW does it has a price. Many of the options in dialogues (at least in ME1/ME2) lead to the same actions in the end. Lots of those and voice acting in general are not free and may lead to less deep stories or cause other game sacrifices. You can deny that, but a game has just an X budget and voice acting eats some of that. That means other stuff has to make room for it.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 13 octobre 2010 - 07:00 .

[Meltemph]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The Masked Rog wrote...

No point in having a choice in game if nothing changes because of it.

This is where we disagree.  First, I think it's the decision-making itself that is the core of the gameplay, so eliminating decision-making opportunities from the gameplay is exactly the wrong thing to do.

Second, you can't really know what choices are going to affect the game.  The game might not react to the choices, but that you made that choice earlier may well affect a later choice you make, and that second choice (regardless of whether the game acknowledges it) is thus a demonstrable consequence of the first.

does not matter if you don't know or not, if people don't like that the causality never changes, that is completely in their right.  Just because you only care about the choice, and not the causality of the choice is irrelevant if someone dislikes the pointlessness in terms of effecting causality.

[FieryDove]

JohnEpler wrote...

 But I feel we gain more than we lose by using the voiced protagonist. That's my opinion, of course - and I don't expect everyone to agree!

I disagree. Huge awesome epic game vs a short/medium awesome/good/great/fair (we don't know yet) game. I'd pick the first every time *if* I was given a choice, at least with RPG's.

[Mordaedil]

I think Other M is a good example why giving voices to silent characters is a terrible idea and should never have been done.

[JrayM16]

Mordaedil wrote...

I think Other M is a good example why giving voices to silent characters is a terrible idea and should never have been done.

Well, the difference there is that in the early MEtroid games, Samus doesn't actually have any lines, voiced or not.  In RPGs like DA:O, the characters do say stuff, just without voice.

[Alodar]

To answer the original poster, IMHO, the point of full voice over is to move the gaming experience closer to the entertainment medium that a majority of gamers are most comfortable with -- tv and movies.

It allows for rousing speeches and for characters to be more active in cut-scenes.
It creates a more even cinematic experience and, when done well, can be very enjoyable.
If you're brave enough to turn off subtitles it is quite an immersive experience.


As for the rose coloured trip down memory lane, the idea that there is one correct way to role-play is flat out ridiculous. What makes role-playing fun, or for that matter what makes role-playing role-playing,  is a personal distinction, no different than what constitutes good music. To each their own.


Alodar

Modifié par Alodar, 13 octobre 2010 - 07:45 .

[Morroian]

Elvhen Veluthil wrote...

Another problem with VO for me is that it makes the world more "real", "real" like real life. It the same problem I have with "tough" choices, smartass companions, and actually anything that insert in the game world a "real life" logic. I prefer game worlds that take into other dimensions altogether, in BG or Planescape you adventure somewhere far away, the setting, the characters, everything was so damn magical. As with many things, imagination is the key here.

No it isn't, thats simply using games as an escape from reality. One is perfectly able to be imaginative in a gritty real world setting.

Modifié par Morroian, 13 octobre 2010 - 09:42 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Mordaedil wrote...

I think Other M is a good example why giving voices to silent characters is a terrible idea and should never have been done.

Other M was just a terrible game with a terrible story, and a completely inane script.

[NamiraWilhelm]

DA is still new, they're just testing out new things and styles. I love ME, but i think i do prefer a NV, just because it feels that i'm more immersed in the game

[AlanC9]

FieryDove wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

 But I feel we gain more than we lose by using the voiced protagonist. That's my opinion, of course - and I don't expect everyone to agree!

I disagree. Huge awesome epic game vs a short/medium awesome/good/great/fair (we don't know yet) game. I'd pick the first every time *if* I was given a choice, at least with RPG's.

But that's easy for you to say since you don't think protagonist VO makes the game much better in the first place, as is obvious from your rankings. If someone did, then the comparison would be a huge awesome game versus a medium more awesome game. Or huge good versus medium awesome if you want to grade on a curve.

How come we ended up talking about protagonist VO. Gecon was talking about something much more radical: going back to pre-KotOR standards.

Modifié par AlanC9, 13 octobre 2010 - 08:31 .

[AtreiyaN7]

I read as part of my job, which involves and endless stream of manuscripts. On my personal time, I've read monster-size books ranging from 600-1000 pages (not that I do that too often anymore since I read quite enough manuscripts as it is). I like reading, but sometimes I want a more cinematic experience. Excellent voice-work can really add to a game, and if you speed through it, then I suppose you're the one lacking in patience or a willingness to immerse yourself in the experience.

That being said, Oblivion didn't actually have stellar VO work anyway (barring Patrick Stewart who wasn't even in the game that long). If you're talking about the common-folk I think it was a total waste of time/effort as far as Oblivion goes. In other games with consistently good VO, it can help make an emtional connection to the characters. I enjoy the cinematics and the VO in Starcraft 2, for example, because they tell the story quite well - and it's an RTS, not even an RPG.

I do, however, agree that David Warner (Jon Irenicus) does an excellent job as a VA. I've been watching Wallander (Masterpiece Mystery! - and yes, I have a penchant for watching British mysteries ), and David Warner plays the father of the main character (played by Kenneth Branagh - heh), so I've been able to listen to him again recently (albeit DW's character is suffering from dementia).

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 13 octobre 2010 - 08:44 .

[Morroian]

simfamSP wrote...

Because 1998 was 12 years ago (and PLEASE note that I have played and fell inlove with BG I and II, so don't go to your console conclusions just yet). It would be weird having someone talk and no voice coming out of that person. It's the market, if one person has done it, EVERYBODY has to do it, in this case voice overs.

I think also the way the visuals are directed provides an impetus to have a protagonist VO. If the game is going to have close ups of conversations, as DAO did, then its immersion breaking to focus on the PC and have him/her staring off into space, as happened a lot in DAO. No VO is OK if the designers want to keep the camera at some distance form the characters.

[In Exile]

JohnEpler wrote...

I think what it comes down to, honestly, is the idea of being immersed in the story versus the idea of being immersed in the PC. The former will be far more accepting of a voiced protagonist, as the thing they're the most interested in is not their own PC, but rather the characters and story as a whole. The latter attaches a lot more importance to their own character - it serves as a representation of 'themselves' within the world that the game creates. They tend to be more leery of a voiced PC - after all, it's not their voice, and that can cause some dissonance.

This comes up all the time, and many people say this, but I have to point out that for me it is the opposite. I like a voiced PC precisely because the PC feels like my character - my avatar - translated in the world moreso than a silent PC would. I dislike silent VO because it makes the character feel a lot less like my character. I suppose part of the reason is that the PC never speaks with my voice (fundamentally) but with the voice of the writers, whether silent or not. Adding voice just allows you to foreground the player in cut-scenes and cinematics instead of background the player like KoTOR and Origins, and to me that is more important, since there is no freedom trade-off. I suppose another part of it is that despite creating different characters (in terms of what they do) I keep many things the same - like appearance. So for me, for the voice (and race, and face) to be the same most of the time is quite natural.

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Exactly, also areas of the
world aren't all confined to a 24x24 space with the "EPIC GRAPHICS"  A
forest in BG or BG2 actually has the size and feel of a forest which
makes the scope of the game that much better. They just don't make RPG's
like that anymore, and it makes me a sad panda.

They do make sandbox games, though. I just happen to really dislike sandbox games with little-to-no plot or interaction, which is what BG had.

Youplayed BG first - so when you see a Bioware sequel, you see them using something that BG used, and it lacking that first unique experience. Forme it is the reverse. In BG/BGII I see a feature that Bioware implemented comparatively poorly compared to their later games; so for me this feature is just improvrished, not briliant.

A good example of this is the timed companion interaction, and the amount of content for each individual party NPC.

Modifié par In Exile, 13 octobre 2010 - 09:54 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

simfamSP wrote...

Because 1998 was 12 years ago.

I still think of 1998 as the modern era.  It was only 12 years ago.

12 years before that - 1986 - now while that was a classic era for gaming, I can see why people wouldn't want to go back to it (though some of that period's features are worth reviewing).

[Pauravi]

Gecon wrote...

So whats the point really ? Why does everyone and their grandma think voiceover is such a big thing ?

I'd venture that most people find that Morrigan, or Alistair, or Leliana are more enjoyable and individual
when they have full-time voice actors.  They seem like more
fleshed-out, more real characters.  The VA's can add little inflections,
or deliver the lines in ways that enhance the character's personality. 
It is just more compelling.

Wulfram wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

If it's really bothersome for you, you can always turn off your speakers and just read the text

Even if you do that, you're still playing a game crippled by the need to take into account the voice acting.

"Crippled"?  My, such a harsh word.  I don't see how that is the case.  In fact, I find that it is the opposite, at least with good voice acting (which Bioware tends to get).  I think that it makes the characters much more believable and forceful with good voice acting.

[Pauravi]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I still think of 1998 as the modern era.  It was only 12 years ago.

In the realm of computers, it certainly is not.

[Pauravi]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

You might not agree, but his current VA adds little to the character.

I disagree.  MaleShep would be a non-character without his VA, too.  I think Meer does a good job, I don't see why he gets bashed so much.  In many instances I like his delivery better than Hale's.

And of course voice acting the way BW does it has a price. Many of the options in dialogues (at least in ME1/ME2) lead to the same actions in the end.

But this is 100% true in DA, too, and was the case for Baldur's Gate.  What's your point?

[_-Greywolf-_]

Brockololly wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Doesn't The Witcher 2 have a wheel with the entire phrase written out instead of a paraphrase? Or am I thinking of another game?

Or did I just totally make that up?

I'm not sure about the Witcher 2, but I was reading somewhere that in Deus Ex: Human Revolution they're going to have a similar dialogue wheel, with the option to see the text if you want- so if you want to be surprised with the paraphrases you can, or if you want the full text you've got the full text.

And here is the relevent quote from the Joystiq article on Deus Ex I just linked to:

When given a choice in the conversation, you'll see big key words appear on the screen, not unlike in Mass Effect. A quick glance should give you an idea of the end result, but Human Revolution goes a step further by providing your full response at the bottom of  the screen. That way, there's no confusion over what your character will say when selecting an option.

Actually that is a pretty good idea, I am not a big fan of the dialogue wheel but this is not because of the wheel itself but the paraphrasing, if Bioware were to implement a system like this then my problems with the wheel would be unfounded.

[Morroian]

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

Actually that is a pretty good idea, I am not a big fan of the dialogue wheel but this is not because of the wheel itself but the paraphrasing, if Bioware were to implement a system like this then my problems with the wheel would be unfounded.

But the problem then becomes you read the response and then you see that exact response said on screen, its redundant. The solution I guess is to put a feature like that in that can be turned off or on.

[nightcobra]

Morroian wrote...

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

Actually that is a pretty good idea, I am not a big fan of the dialogue wheel but this is not because of the wheel itself but the paraphrasing, if Bioware were to implement a system like this then my problems with the wheel would be unfounded.

But the problem then becomes you read the response and then you see that exact response said on screen, its redundant. The solution I guess is to put a feature like that in that can be turned off or on.

like a... toggle?

whoops there goes another puppy:devil:

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 13 octobre 2010 - 10:32 .

[Pauravi]

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

Funny thing is that I found the BG series much more interesting and engaging than Origins or Mass Effect ever were and as we all know the BG games had very little voiced dialogue, tell me how that works?

Well, it works because that's your personal opinion, perhaps with a bit of fond nostalgia thrown in.
You can't make a subjective personal statement and treat it as some sort of objective proof that BG is lacking nothing compared to modern games.

Don't get me wrong, I played BG all the way through ToB when it was out, and I still hold it up as one of the best RPG's ever made.  But we always make those sorts of statements in the context of when we played them and what else was around at the time.  Consider, also, that although it wasn't fully voiced, many of the characters DID have voices.  And if you ask me, those voices had A LOT to do with how I percieved the characters and how much I liked them.  After all, who is "Xan" without his whiny "our quest is vaaaaiiin...", or Viconia's sultry, dusky voice?  If they could have been fully voiced I would have loved it.  By the same token, fully voicing a PC also makes sense, assuming that they are trying to tell the story of a specific character, which they are (as they were in ME).

[_-Greywolf-_]

Morroian wrote...

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

Actually that is a pretty good idea, I am not a big fan of the dialogue wheel but this is not because of the wheel itself but the paraphrasing, if Bioware were to implement a system like this then my problems with the wheel would be unfounded.

But the problem then becomes you read the response and then you see that exact response said on screen, its redundant. The solution I guess is to put a feature like that in that can be turned off or on.

Well the thing is from what I understand Deus Ex will use a system that has the dialogue wheel with the paraphrased options that you can choose without looking at the whole line however when you highlight an option what Adam is actually going to say will be displayed under the wheel. You can still choose lines quickly based on the paraphrased line or if you want you can read the whole line so there is no confusion as to what Adam is going to say and you wont end up choking someone out when all you meant to do was say hello. I see no problem with that as it offers the best of both worlds.

That being said I do prefer a silent protagonist but if we are going to have a voiced protagonist then a system like that wouldnt be too bad.