399 réponses à ce sujet

[Meltemph]

I found the BG series much more interesting and engaging

Well Bg had a huge advantage of having a very detailed world with set pantheons, rule sets, characters, detailed cities, and very fleshed out classes and lore. Starting with the Forgotten Realms I would have to think, makes the writers job much easier, in the sense of having material to work with.

Where as with DA, they have to make-up the material while they are writing about it.

Modifié par Meltemph, 13 octobre 2010 - 11:00 .

[Pauravi]

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

When given a choice in the conversation, you'll see big key words appear on the screen, not unlike in Mass Effect. A quick glance should give you an idea of the end result, but Human Revolution goes a step further by providing your full response at the bottom of  the screen. That way, there's no confusion over what your character will say when selecting an option.

Actually that is a pretty good idea, I am not a big fan of the dialogue wheel but this is not because of the wheel itself but the paraphrasing, if Bioware were to implement a system like this then my problems with the wheel would be unfounded.

Of course it partially defeats Bioware's purpose in using the wheel, which is to make dialogue decisions quicker, and based more on gut reactions (as they would be in real life), rather than having people read long responses and carefully choosing among them.  I don't mind the wheel at all, it is only annoying when little synopses don't accurately reflect the tone or content of the dialogue.  If they get better at doing that then I don't see any problem with it.

[_-Greywolf-_]

Pauravi wrote...

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

Funny thing is that I found the BG series much more interesting and engaging than Origins or Mass Effect ever were and as we all know the BG games had very little voiced dialogue, tell me how that works?

Well, it works because that's your personal opinion, perhaps with a bit of fond nostalgia thrown in.
You can't make a subjective personal statement and treat it as some sort of objective proof that BG is lacking nothing compared to modern games.

Yes you are right, that is my personal opinion however in no way was I trying to imply that everyone should share it, the point I was trying to make that there are many of us who dont need VOs for a game to work and in the big scheme of things the VO isnt as important as many players and even Bioware themselves think it should be, great writing and imagination will always be more important than VOs in my opinion and this is why I think that the BG games are superior to both the Mass Effect series and Dragon Age, it has nothing to do with nostalgia.

[_-Greywolf-_]

Pauravi wrote...

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

When given a choice in the conversation, you'll see big key words appear on the screen, not unlike in Mass Effect. A quick glance should give you an idea of the end result, but Human Revolution goes a step further by providing your full response at the bottom of  the screen. That way, there's no confusion over what your character will say when selecting an option.

Actually that is a pretty good idea, I am not a big fan of the dialogue wheel but this is not because of the wheel itself but the paraphrasing, if Bioware were to implement a system like this then my problems with the wheel would be unfounded.

Of course it partially defeats Bioware's purpose in using the wheel, which is to make dialogue decisions quicker, and based more on gut reactions (as they would be in real life), rather than having people read long responses and carefully choosing among them.  I don't mind the wheel at all, it is only annoying when little synopses don't accurately reflect the tone or content of the dialogue.  If they get better at doing that then I don't see any problem with it.

Ask people if they want their conversations based on a timer and you will see that many people dispite having the wheel will sit there and carefully consider every dialogue option dispite the paraphrasing.

I see no problem with offering both the whole line and the paraphrased line, if you want to shoot through the conversations quickly then just choose the options based on the paraphrased line.

[Morroian]

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

Ask people if they want their conversations based on a timer and you will see that many people dispite having the wheel will sit there and carefully consider every dialogue option dispite the paraphrasing.

Did they in ME and ME2? Somehow I doubt that.

[Meltemph]

Unless they are trying to get away from the "writing a letter" approach.

[Addai]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I am not against voice acted PCs. VA can make the PC come alive. FemShep is a character that if it wasn't for her voice actress would totally suck. Click the links in my sig and see how voice acting can help portrait a believable character and make it come alive (both genders). That said, to me if there was no FemShep and only MaleShep was available then I rather have a PC without a voice. You might not agree, but his current VA adds little to the character.

Whereas I felt the same about femShep and since I don't like playing a male character, it basically made ME unplayable.  Another would be Leliana, it was not only her VO that made me "ew" about her character, but that contributed and would much rather have had an unvoiced DLC.

People's tastes differ and no matter who the VA is, being forced to play your PC with only one voice is going to have an impact.

[Caralampio]

Personally, I read through what someone is saying in the time he or she has said about 2 or 3 words. Then I feel that hearing them out is pointless and a waste of time. I use Esc (or spacebar in ME) to cut them short even in first playthroughs.

I hope they use Esc instead of the spacebar for DA2. I can Esc through a long conversation in DAO in a few seconds, but the spacebar in ME isn't as efficient and sometimes doesn't cut the voiceover.

I don't like it at all that they gave a voice to the hero in DA2. This only makes the conversations so much longer (in real time I mean, not in textual words). I believe that this decision was also instrumental in forcing the player to use only the standard (downright ugly) character, like it was with Shepard in ME.

Another thing I hate about the wheel is that the hint or paraphrase frequently has nothing to do with what the character actually says, so he says something you didn't mean to. Like, the wheel might say "I agree" and the character says "You're wrong".

Modifié par Caralampio, 13 octobre 2010 - 11:26 .

[_-Greywolf-_]

Morroian wrote...

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

Ask people if they want their conversations based on a timer and you will see that many people dispite having the wheel will sit there and carefully consider every dialogue option dispite the paraphrasing.

Did they in ME and ME2? Somehow I doubt that.

This is based on a thread that was posted a while back in which the poster put forward an idea to put conversations on a timer somewhat like Alpha Protocol, it diddnt go over so well as many people said "they dont want to be rushed through the conversation" and stated that they liked to consider their options carefully.

To me that kind of defeats the purpose of the dialogue wheel however if people are going to sit there and consider their options carefully you might as well give them the full line so they can make a more informed choice.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Pauravi wrote...

Of course it partially defeats Bioware's purpose in using the wheel, which is to make dialogue decisions quicker, and based more on gut reactions (as they would be in real life),

In real life, if people spoke to me that way, they wouldn't get to speak to me again.

[upsettingshorts]

I definitely try to make my dialogue decisions - when there's a wheel - fairly quickly in order to maintain the illusion of an actual, well-paced conversation. That's only really led to my picking the "wrong" choice a couple of times, but that was always because in my haste my finger slipped and not because I misunderstood or failed to guess what the paraphrase option was going to lead to.

Though I tend to lean heavily on assumptions that at least in my view almost always turn out to be correct or consistent - you know, the top left option will always be Paragon-ish, bottom right a kind of benign impatience... that kind of thing. So the little icons they're including in DA:2 should actually be an improvement on the whole concept.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In real life, if people spoke to me that way, they wouldn't get to speak to me again.

But that is how it works though.  When I saw your post I thought internally - "I disagree."  Though it wasn't so much that I internally spoke those words, it was a feeling.  I didn't internally speak the entire post I'm typing out to you now any more than I would have if you were standing right infront of me.  

Do people actually have immediate reactions to things that result in entire sentences of thought before they actually speak?  I mean at anything other than some kind of formal debate.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 octobre 2010 - 11:41 .

[Meltemph]

In real life, if people spoke to me that way, they wouldn't get to speak to me again.

So are you saying you respond to people much like you respond to a letter? Well aren't you great at social gatherings. >.>

But in all seriousness, different strokes, I guess, but some of you are much more "my way highway" type of thought, it is a bit jarring.

Modifié par Meltemph, 13 octobre 2010 - 11:45 .

[Tokion]

Anyone who played Mass Effect knows that there are some moments being able to captured with ONLY a VO main.



examples.

[Sir JK]

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...
This is based on a thread that was posted a while back in which the poster put forward an idea to put conversations on a timer somewhat like Alpha Protocol, it diddnt go over so well as many people said "they dont want to be rushed through the conversation" and stated that they liked to consider their options carefully.

To me that kind of defeats the purpose of the dialogue wheel however if people are going to sit there and consider their options carefully you might as well give them the full line so they can make a more informed choice.

The problem with providing the full text to a voiced line is that it's so very grating to have it repeated to you, to the point where some cannot even enjoy it at all (I belong to that group... I'll never finish the witcher). That's why it needs to be shortened down, to prevent being forced to have it repeated. If shortened down properly, what the lines means should still be clear enough (I imagine the tone/intent-icons will be very helpful in that regard).

The full line is seldom really needed either. It's a bit of a myth that it provides more information than a paraphrase. They are generally written to be more clear in their intent and meaning (because of lack of voice), hence why they provide more information. A vague but fully written line is just as troublesome as a misleading paraphrase, it makes the former choice just as ill-informed as the latter. The crux doesn't lie in that it is paraphrased, but that it's intent was too vague. That's a presentation issue though, not a problem with the model as such.

[Meltemph]

Don't forget this one!

Modifié par Meltemph, 13 octobre 2010 - 11:44 .

[Anarya]

Tokion wrote...

Anyone who played Mass Effect knows that there are some moments being able to captured with ONLY a VO main.

examples.

There are definitely advantages and disadvantages to both options.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Morroian wrote...

Did they in ME and ME2? Somehow I doubt that.

I certainly did.  Those subtle differences in phrasing matter, and it's doubly hard to determine what they're going to be in ME with the actual line hidden from us.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Meltemph wrote...

So are you saying you respond to people much like you respond to a letter?

By considering my remarks and constructing complete sentences?

Yes.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 14 octobre 2010 - 12:14 .

[ErichHartmann]

Bah.....nevermind.

Modifié par ErichHartmann, 14 octobre 2010 - 12:21 .

[_-Greywolf-_]

Sir JK wrote...

The problem with providing the full text to a voiced line is that it's so very grating to have it repeated to you, to the point where some cannot even enjoy it at all (I belong to that group... I'll never finish the witcher). That's why it needs to be shortened down, to prevent being forced to have it repeated. If shortened down properly, what the lines means should still be clear enough (I imagine the tone/intent-icons will be very helpful in that regard).

Yes that was already mentioned and I thought the solution that was proposed would effectively solve the problem and give the player the best of both worlds. Please tell me what the problem is with giving the player both the full line and the paraphrased line like what I assume is being done with the new Deus Ex game?

Modifié par _-Greywolf-_, 14 octobre 2010 - 01:20 .

[Blastback]

I've been skimming, so I don't know if this has been brought up, but one potential worry is that the player just won't like the voice in question. It could be very difficult to sit though a Bioware length game knashing your teeth everytime your pc opened his or her mouth.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Morroian wrote...

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

Ask people if they want their conversations based on a timer and you will see that many people dispite having the wheel will sit there and carefully consider every dialogue option dispite the paraphrasing.

Did they in ME and ME2? Somehow I doubt that.

I certainly tried to take my time, other wise why bother if you're just randomly picking dialog choices? Obviously some people really don't care about having any input in the game at all.

[upsettingshorts]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

So are you saying you respond to people much like you respond to a letter?

By considering my remarks and constructing complete sentences?

Yes.

You're putting the cart before the horse.

"Gut feelings" and initial reactions precede and inform on the complete sentences that follow, they don't necessarily replace them.

Mass Effect-style paraphrasing gives the player input over that reaction.  Shepard him or herself - well, more accurately the writer - takes over after that. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 14 octobre 2010 - 05:01 .

[Lucy Glitter]

Blastback wrote...

I've been skimming, so I don't know if this has been brought up, but one potential worry is that the player just won't like the voice in question. It could be very difficult to sit though a Bioware length game knashing your teeth everytime your pc opened his or her mouth.

^

Hence why I liked the distinction between ME2 and DAO. DAO I felt I could customise my PC to a full extent. In ME2, we had a set PC, we just chose how they would act, and they would do their own thing, which is fine.

I liked being able to make my OWN character in DAO. There were times in ME2 I went, "This is not how I wanted Shepard to act" and I dislike that in an RPG. I still love ME2, but it was hard to shake off the silent protagonist expectation all through every single playthrough. I still shudder whenever femshep talks to Jacob. Ugghhhhhh.

I just know I will have this reaction in DA2. 

Modifié par Lucy_Glitter, 14 octobre 2010 - 05:02 .