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[MrFob]

implodinggoat wrote...

*snip*

In ME3 I'd like to see Karpashyn tasked with writing the main storyline, while making sure Walters stories avoid contradicting the nature of established characters (Liara, Shepard) or factions (Cerberus).  And I'd like to see Walters tasked with writing smaller independent narratives (like the loyalty missions) while collaborating with Karpashyn on the dialogue throughout the main storyline.  Such an arrangement would play to the strengths of both writers and could deliver both an epic main story on par with ME1 while delivering the powerful independent narratives that ME2 excelled at.

Well said. I agree with the whole post (though snipped to avoid too much text).
Just read redemption last week and you can see how DK in the novel kind of compensates.

In the book it is expressed that TIM compartmentalizes information and that for his very fragile alliance with Shep he only let the commander see (and emphasized) what was within the bounds of Sheps moral stance. That makes Cerberus' appearance in ME2 much more believable as part of TIMs attempt to manipulate Shep into doing what TIM needs him/her to do. It is not directly said like this in the book but it is hinted at several times and that is what I like about Drew Karpyshyns stories. He can give than coherence by subtly mentioning or hinting at things which only become relevant at another time. The whole book Retribution did a great job linking all the games and novels together IMO.
So yeah, I also really hope Drew will have some part and influence in ME3 because as the culmination of the trilogy we need a story that ties a lot of strings together but is in itself still even exceeding ME1.

[implodinggoat]

JamieCOTC wrote...

It was nice of Walters to give the interview and I'm sure he's a great guy. It is also cool that he admits to using the wiki. That's something we fans just eat up. I respect anyone who has even a modest bit of writing talent, so I'll give Walters credit for that, but I can't say I am a fan of his work. It's nothing personal, but the ME1 plot was just so much better. It was an interesting read nonetheless. Thanks.

To be fair I actually like Walter's writing its just very apparent that as a comic writer he's used to writing short self contained stories and when he's doing that he's damn good at it.

My critique of Walters as a writer is that since he's not a novelist he thinks in the short term rather than the long term, so while he excels at keeping you excited about what's going on at the moment, he lacks Karpashyn's skill when it comes to getting you intrigued in the overarching narrative.

(Spoilers)

Every single mission in ME2 is exciting while you're playing it; but the missions don't build upon eachother to create the same sense of intrigue that Karpashyn's story had in ME1.  By themselves every mission in ME2 works great; but the manner in which they work together to advance the narrative feels arbitrary rather than deliberate.  Basically the ME2 narrative reduces to you being told to assemble a team for a vaguely defined mission then going on a series of unconnected missions to recruit and then attain the loyalty of that team.  Not even the main storyline missions really feel connected since they all lead up to you going on a mission to retrieve a piece of intel (the Reaper IFF) which the Illusive man reveals that Cerberus had know about from the start of the game.  The end result makes the entire game feel like you're just getting jerked around from one random objective to the next all the way up until you get the Reaper IFF.   You're never bored by what's going on at the moment; but you're never really intrigued by where the story is going next either.

In contrast Karpashyn's ME1 ultimately has the feel of an ancient mystery which you as the player are slowly unraveling as you chase an initially mysterious villian whose tragic motivations slowly reveal themselves over the course of the narrative.  You enjoy each mission; but unlike in ME2 you're constantly wondering what's going to happen next and where all these clues will ultimately lead you.

(End Spoilers)

The interesting thing is that Karpashyn's greatest strength (creating an epic overacring story) is Walter's greatest weakness, while Walter's greatest strength (creating short independent stories and memorable minor character's) is Karpashyn's greatest weakness.

That's why I think ME3 could be truly spectacular if it Walter's and Karpashyn collaborated together.  Karpashyn could craft the epic overarcing storyline that keeps you constantly wondering what's going to happen next while Walter's could spice up the story by providing memorable independent side quests and awesome minor character's like Kal Reeger or Nito Cal.

[implodinggoat]

I think this quote from the interview really demonstrates Walter's tendency to reinvent the story's history in order to achieve the short term objectives he wants from the story....

Quoting Walters....

"So we wanted to go back and show a little snippet of time and show what
the Illusive Man was doing, say, 30 years in the past. During this time
Cerberus was still very “pro-human,” and so was the Illusive Man. He’s
very much about humanity’s interests. So we took it to a time when
humanity was first stepping onto the stage."

The idea being that when Walters was writing the the ME2 story he was given a very pro human organization called Cerberus to work with and because he realized that player's would be revolted by working with a group who are basically the Mass Effect universe's equivalent of space ****s, he rewrote Cerberus into a vigilante organization which attracts its members not through xenophobia; but by appealing entirely to their disgust at the Alliance's lack of action.

(SPOILERS)

The problem is that only 2 years have passed between ME1 and ME2 and yet we are lead to believe that in a mere 2 years the Illusive Man has managed to heal Cerberus's reputation to the extent that he's able to recruit an entire crew of decent tolerant people like Joker, Jacob, Kelly and Dr. Chakwas.  I mean seriously in ME1 both Ashley and  Navigator Pressly voiced legitimate concerns about having non humans on board the Normandy and they were an Alliance crew, yet in ME2 your entire crew seems perfectly content to load the ship with aliens while Kelly tells you about how she loves all species.  It just doesn't add up.

He did the same thing with Liara who despite a hundred year obsession with archeology apparently walked away from her life's work and became an information broker all to fulfill her desire to avenge some random Cerberus collaborater Drell who she went on one mission with.    And she does this in spite of the fact that in ME1 she made the most important archeological discovery EVER and then witnessed the council and the Alliance deny her discovery despite the fact that doing so imperils all sentient life in the galaxy.   Now I'm sorry; but thats simply a choice that the single most intelligent and benevolent character in ME1 is going to make.

(END SPOILERS)

As a writer Walters needs to learn that he can't arbitrarily reinvent an established character or faction in order to have them fulfill the role in the story that he wants them to fill.  Character's change and factions change over time; but as a writer you have to show exactly how that change takes place if you want your audience to believe it.  You can't just have characters proclaim that they or the organization they work for has completely changed and expect the audience to just roll with it.

[Mister Mida]

implodinggoat wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

Meh, nothing of interest. So far I'm not much of a fan of Walters.

I think Walters dialogue is really good; but the fact that he's a comic writer definitely shows in his story writing.

When he's writing a short self contained narrative like the recruitment and loyalty missions or DLC like Overlord and Lair of The Shadow Broker he does a good job.  However; when he's writing a larger interwovern narrative like the main storyline in ME2 he has trouble keeping your interest and often includes story elements which clash with past events and the backgrounds of the characters he's writing for.   

[Minor Spoilers]

The way he dealt with Liara's character in the Redepmtion Comic, the main game and to a lesser extent the LOTSB DLC  is the most obvious example of his tendency to write a storyline which works unto itself; but which feels contrived and artificial when you consider the events which preceded it.    Liara becoming obsessed with revenge works as an independent story; but it never provides an adequate explanantion how her character would get to that point.  Likewise the concept of Shepard working with Cerberus is intriguing as its own story; but when one considers Shepard's interactions with Cerberus in ME1 the concept falls apart.  I mean in ME1 Cerberus is a twisted terrorist organization whose members are highly driven by anti alien xenophobia, yet in ME2 these motivations are almost totally absent and the sole motivation your crew members provide for joining Cerberus is because the Alliance wasn't doing anything.  In essence Liara in ME1 is an entirely different character from Liara in ME2 and Ceberus in ME2 is an entirely different organization than it was in ME1.

[End Minor Spoilers]

I'd like to see more input from Drew Karpashyn in ME3 since he's much better at crafting an epic storyline the gives the player with a sense of freedom and  provides meaningful ethical choices for the player.

As a comic writer Walters is more like Quentin Tarantino in that he's really good at crafting excellent dialogue and short independent scenes (Pulp Fiction); but struggles when it comes to crafting a longer interwoven story (Inglorious Basterds).  While as a novelist Karpashyn is more like George Lucas or James Cameron in that he excels at crafting an epic storyline set in a fascinating universe.

In ME3 I'd like to see Karpashyn tasked with writing the main storyline, while making sure Walters stories avoid contradicting the nature of established characters (Liara, Shepard) or factions (Cerberus).  And I'd like to see Walters tasked with writing smaller independent narratives (like the loyalty missions) while collaborating with Karpashyn on the dialogue throughout the main storyline.  Such an arrangement would play to the strengths of both writers and could deliver both an epic main story on par with ME1 while delivering the powerful independent narratives that ME2 excelled at.

I understand your point of view. I'm more of the opinion that Karpyshyn shouldn't have been taken off the trilogy in the first place just for the sake of him working on SW: tOR. I don't know who's choice it was (Bioware's, EA's, hell maybe even LA's choice), but it makes as less sense as for example to have George Lucas write A New Hope and then have someone else do The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. I don't say Walters flat out sucks but so far I'm not impressed.

Any chance of Karpyshyn coming back and being actually active in the writing process instead of just having his name on it will be slim at best.

Modifié par Mister Mida, 14 octobre 2010 - 08:42 .

[implodinggoat]

Mister Mida wrote...

I understand your point of view, but I'm more of the opinion that Karpyshyn shouldn't have been taken off the trilogy for the sake of working on SWtOR. I don't know who's choice it was (Bioware's, EA's, hell maybe even LA's choice), but it makes as less sense as for example to have George Lucas write A New Hope and then have someone else do The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. I don't say Walters flat out sucks but so far I'm not impressed.

I totally agree that Karpashyn shouldn't have been taken off Mass Effect, particularly to work on SW:TOR which as an MMO is going to have to revolve around short independent narratives rather than larger overarching stories like the one Karpashyn delivered in Mass Effect.

Honestly,  I think the idea to take Karpashyn off the project probably had to do with the stupid concept that Mass Effect 2 had to be darker than Mass Effect 1 (the term "Dark Second Act" seemed to become a mantra) and they figured that Walters could deliver a darker story better while Karpashyn's talent's for space opera would be better applied to Star Wars the Old Republic.

While they certainly succeeded in making Mass Effect 2 a darker game than Mass Effect 1 they also made it a game that's down right depressing to play through.  Mass Effect 1 left you feeling like a badass savior of the galaxy while Mass Effect 2 left you feeling like the meek puppet of the Illusive Man.   And really people don't play game's to feel like powerless puppets, they get enough of that **** in real life.

As I said I do think Walters has some good contributions to make; but if I had to choose between the two I'd definitely go with Karpashyn.  If nothing else Karpashyn is way better at convincing the player that their choices are advancing the story, while Walters tends to drag you along kicking and screaming into the decisions he wants you to make (like siding with Cerberus).

PS:  I wouldn't completely discount the chance of Drew Karpashyn being brought back to do more work on Mass Effect 2. 

Despite the universal (and well deserved) critical acclaim for Mass Effect 2 almost every reviewer mentions a weak central story as one of the games few flaws, while an exceptional central story was universally recognized as one of Mass Effect 1's greatest strengths.  Were I working for Bioware or EA that alone would make me strongly reconsider the necessity of Drew Karpashyn to Mass Effect.

Modifié par implodinggoat, 14 octobre 2010 - 09:05 .

[Mister Mida]

implodinggoat wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...
I understand your point of view, but I'm more of the opinion that Karpyshyn shouldn't have been taken off the trilogy for the sake of working on SWtOR. I don't know who's choice it was (Bioware's, EA's, hell maybe even LA's choice), but it makes as less sense as for example to have George Lucas write A New Hope and then have someone else do The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. I don't say Walters flat out sucks but so far I'm not impressed.

I totally agree that Karpashyn shouldn't have been taken off Mass Effect, particularly to work on SW:TOR which as an MMO is going to have to revolve around short independent narratives rather than larger overarching stories like the one Karpashyn delivered in Mass Effect.

Honestly,  I think the idea to take Karpashyn off the project probably had to do with the stupid concept that Mass Effect 2 had to be darker than Mass Effect 1 (the term "Dark Second Act" seemed to become a mantra) and they figured that Walters could deliver a darker story better while Karpashyn's talent's for space opera would be better applied to Star Wars the Old Republic.

While they certainly succeeded in making Mass Effect 2 a darker game than Mass Effect 1 they also made it a game that's down right depressing to play through.  Mass Effect 1 left you feeling like a badass savior of the galaxy while Mass Effect 2 left you feeling like the meek puppet of the Illusive Man.   And really people don't play game's to feel like powerless puppets, they get enough of that **** in real life.

As I said I do think Walters has some good contributions to make; but if I had to choose between the two I'd definitely go with Karpashyn.  If nothing else Karpashyn is way better at convincing the player that their choices are advancing the story, while Walters tends to drag you along kicking and screaming into the decisions he wants you to make (like siding with Cerberus).

Well, my impression is that tOR's gonna have a big overarching story for each class since Bioware keeps saying 'We want to add story to the MMO genre'. Karpyshyn has the credentials so in theory he would be up for the task. But not if it's gonna compromise a series in which he still should be involved in.

I agree that ME2 is darker, but not that much darker. They've blown out a few candles but you easily forget the darker stories that are the loyalty missions since they're short and have no real impact on the main story.

Modifié par Mister Mida, 14 octobre 2010 - 09:08 .

[PROKNIFER69]

you guys talk to much .... like the illusive man.

[Gibb_Shepard]

He uses the wiki? He forgot whether a particular character was killed in mass effect, and had to refer to the wiki to get information on something he supposedly wrote?



I really don't like the fact that this guy is in charge of writing ME3, how he's completely reinvented Liara's character and Cerberus is terrible. How he made shepard a grunt for hire with no opinion on his new overlord is bull****. I'm not expecting good continuity into ME3, in fact i'm expecting the story to be about random side missions that do not build on eachother, with a bunch of action added to the mix.



Bring back Drew.

[AllThatJazz]

I thought the interview was an enjoyable read, and given that I thoroughly enjoyed Mass Effect 2, am not concerned in the least about Mac Walters, though it's a shame Drew K is gone.



Just a pity there were no hints about a Mass Effect 3 announcement - come on Bio, isn't it about time? :0)

[AntiChri5]

Sareth Cousland wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
Bring back Drew.

Seconded.

Thirded and fourthed.

[Kolos2]

Drew not having a part in ME3 aint good. Its very obvious that the main plot in ME1 was better done and he was behind the whole concept of the ME universe



I wasnt found of the comic eather, full of plot holes and inconsistencies

[Eagle94]

So will still have no news about DLC?....hmm......that is.........frustrating

[Ceasefire]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Sareth Cousland wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
Bring back Drew.

Seconded.

Thirded and fourthed.

Fifthed, Drew has to return and work with Mac, ME1's Main plot was better.

[JamieCOTC]

Ceasefire wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Sareth Cousland wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
Bring back Drew.

Seconded.

Thirded and fourthed.

Fifthed, Drew has to return and work with Mac, ME1's Main plot was better.

Sixthed ... I can forgive a couple of side quests not being all that great, but when the main story fails to meet expectations there needs to be some reevaluating done.

[ZombifiedJake]

Prefer Drew but this guy is ok. Shouldn't be tasked with writing the main story in ME3, though.

[Fraevar]

rynluna wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Don't know why it's only hitting me now, but after reading the majority of the storyline posts on the forums being about Cerberus, about why Shepard is with Cerberus, about what it means to work for the Illusive Man, about his role in Retribution, and now the buildup to this comic... I suddenly feel like I'm not in Commander Shepard's story anymore. I feel like I'm watching the Illusive Man's story from Shepard's POV.

It's like I knew this already, but reading this interview makes me now feel this. It's not a pleasant feeling.

All of this especially the bolded part.  ME3 is the last chance to focus on Shepard.  They can use other games if they want to explore other characters.  I have a bad taste in my mouth for Walters after Redemption.  Ugh.

Quoted again for extra emphasis and truth. Stop trying to be "cool" and learn how to develop characters, Mac.

[Zenyxia]

Nice interview, thank you.

[JamieCOTC]

rynluna wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Don't know why it's only hitting me now, but after reading the majority of the storyline posts on the forums being about Cerberus, about why Shepard is with Cerberus, about what it means to work for the Illusive Man, about his role in Retribution, and now the buildup to this comic... I suddenly feel like I'm not in Commander Shepard's story anymore. I feel like I'm watching the Illusive Man's story from Shepard's POV.

It's like I knew this already, but reading this interview makes me now feel this. It's not a pleasant feeling.

All of this especially the bolded part.  ME3 is the last chance to focus on Shepard.  They can use other games if they want to explore other characters.  I have a bad taste in my mouth for Walters after Redemption.  Ugh.

Part of the wonder of ME1 was exploring Shepard as a character.  I realize part of that was due to the fact that we were playing Shep for the first time and that aspect will never be recaptured.  Still, ME2 felt like Shepard was guest starring in his/her own game rather than growing as a character.  I don’t want an avatar to feed on a narcissistic need to shoot bad guys and save the universe.  I want a character that I can develop through actions, dialogue and choices and also shoot bad guys and save the universe.  ME2 is still a great game, but the main story and Shepard's character development falls short of BW’s past glories.  Ultimately, I hope that both BW and Walters understand these criticisms stem from the fact that we love the game and the character. Given the right plot and a much needed boost to Shepard's character, I truly believe both the universe and the character of Shepard have the potential to surpass even BW’s best accomplishments of the past. 

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 14 octobre 2010 - 06:41 .

[adneate]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
Bring back Drew.

This a million times over, in fact fire Mac Walters and steal David Gaider from the Dragon Age 2 team for a couple days. I'd like at least a competent writer at the helm not this butcher.

[Mox Ruuga]

Hm... this thread is getting feisty.

I support the idea of Drew and Mac working together, supplementing each others' strengths.

[Ghostano]

I am not a writer and do not claim to be one. Just seems a bad thing to have a writer that needs to use wiki while writting a story. When I first read the orginal writer of ME did not write ME2 I was suprised and made the weak story make sense. When t coems down to it the main story is the biggest drag on ME 2 for me and still does not feel like Shapard's story to me. Even with Liara's DLC her changes for 2 years just seem so drastic to me.



For me even if they get ME3 story back on Shapard I will still have to play Attack of Miranda's Butt (ME2) if I ever want to play all the chacter's I made in ME. Oh well nothign can be done but wait and see.

[adneate]

Mox Ruuga wrote...
I support the idea of Drew and Mac working together, supplementing each others' strengths.

Wouldn't Mac have to have strengths in order for someone to compliment them? Unless you consider shoddy writing, railroading the player and an utter contempt for the entire concept of continuity a strength I don't see what he did well in ME2. Mass Effect 3 is the end of the trilogy why in God's name would you give it to someone who time and time again has shown they are not competent and not up to the task. Unless, by some miracle, in the intervening time he's become a different writer who can actually write convincing characters and plots I don't see the point of giving him another game to frack up.