135 réponses à ce sujet

[AntiChri5]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

Lucy_Glitter wrote...


Also, can you tone down the language and rudeness, please? 

no, it's too unrealistic and improbable. Chances are 1 in 100000000000000000

Actually, Tenga, i think you should. She asked nicely, there is no need to be uncivil.

@ Lucy: Why the obsession with genre? If it helps, just think of Mass Effect as fantasy in space, many already do.

Modifié par AntiChri5, 14 octobre 2010 - 02:43 .

[Mecha Tengu]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Mecha Tengu wrote...

Lucy_Glitter wrote...


Also, can you tone down the language and rudeness, please? 

no, it's too unrealistic and improbable. Chances are 1 in 100000000000000000

Actually, Tenga, i think you should. She asked nicely, there is no need to uncivil.

ridicolously stupid and nitpicky reasons for disliking a sci fi universe. Boring thread anyway

[AntiChri5]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Actually, Tenga, i think you should. She asked nicely, there is no need to uncivil.

ridicolously stupid and nitpicky reasons for disliking a sci fi universe. Boring thread anyway

If i was an ass in every thread i thought was ridiculous i would have been banned long ago.

If you think the thread is ridiculous then perhaps you should leave it? Thats what i do.

Modifié par AntiChri5, 14 octobre 2010 - 02:48 .

[Lucy Glitter]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

no, it's too unrealistic and improbable. Chances are 1 in 100000000000000000

Come now, isn't that a little immature?

mr hankey1083 wrote...

If you think about evolution and how intelligent beings like us have evolved, it only makes sense that an alien would resemble humanity. Think about it, what do we need to be successful at surviving? We need eyes to see, legs to move, arms to do work with. If an alien being had more than 2 legs and arms, too much brain power is dedicated into coordinating that, thus it is a less intelligent being. Same thing goes for eyes, we have two eyes, if an alien had more, again, too much brain power used. Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe every citadel alien has 2 eyes with the exception of the Hanar. I would say that the ME universe is rather accurate in terms of how an alien being might evolve, some physical and cosmetic differences, but bipedal with 2 eyes. Just my opinion though.

You have a good point, I suppose. Is it illogical to say their body has already adapted to, say, 5 limbs? That their brains (or whatever they have)  have expanded and evolved to be able to multi task 5 limbs moving at the same time?

Alright, so, I can accept one or two alien species having a similar structure to humans, like I said originally, I can suspend my disbelief to that.

I get thingy when I see it in all the aliens, I guess that's my gripe. The lack of diversity in the alien bodies. I should have been more clear, apologies, everyone.

[Shepard Lives]

Oh please.



One of the MAIN themes of the game is the deconstruction of the "Planet Of Hats" trend: every goddamn race presents different individuals.

Let's take the turians for instance: you defined them "militaristic". Let's take a look at their job descriptions, shall we?

There are turian mercenaries, turian Presidium Groundskeepers, turian barkeeps, turian merchants and more. Same goes for personalities: Saren was a homicidal ******, whereas Garrus is remarkably well-adjusted and morally upstanding.

Now, asari. Asari mercenaries, asari merchants, asari bartenders, asari vigilantes, asari crimelords: we've got all these and more. Think about that for a while and you'll see you can do that with all the other races. The short description you give (nerdy, militaristic, wise) is merely a stereotype that other races have of the race (man, I said race a lot of times).



And humans are regarded so highly because they're the next big thing: they arrived 30 years ago and they spread at an incredible rate while quickly advancing up the "food chain". It's not like they're presented as superior: much like in many other settings, they're the jack-of-all-trades race. They're not as strong as a krogan or as smart as a salarian or as wise as an asari (keep in mind, though, that we have indeed met our fair share of weak krogan, stupid salarians and above all idiotic asari), but they 've got a little bit of everything.

Also, do you even pay attention to the dialogues? Some aliens see humans as admirably skilled and special and others (maybe the majority) see them as vermin who spread alarmingly quickly.



Now, about humanoid races... first and foremost, look at AntiChri5's post. Bipedal and with two arms doesn't mean humanoid, no it doesn't. And even if it did, we've got hanar, elcor, volus, rachni, yahg, frickin' Reapers, plenty of nonhumanoid species.

Other very valid reasons for the existence of humanoid aliens are:

* Convergent evolution. The "two arms, two legs" model is quite useful for sentient species.

* Programming. How the hell do you create weapons, armor, dialogue or even a 3D model for a gas particle alien?

* It's a videogame. Videogames are supposed to be fun, not realistic or reasonable. And, I, myself, think Mass Effect is ridiculously fun. So stop torturing yourself with questions and enjoy the experience.



That is all.

[Pacifien]

Mecha Tengu wrote...
ridicolously stupid and nitpicky reasons for disliking a sci fi universe. Boring thread anyway

If you do not like the thread, stay out of it and move on to one that better suits you. That is not difficult and helps keep threads free of antagonistic and insulting atmospheres.

[Khayness]

DarthCaine wrote...

erm, which sci-fi setting do you know of that doesn't follow those rules ?

There are some oldschool russian sci-fis out there. Feels like an acid trip, but atleast they are original

[Nightodie]

Actually I was thinking along different lines. It is not odd for like species to congragate. Hence the 2 arms 2 legged creatures will tend to end up in the same place. If there were creatures who were intelligent but looked different isn't it possible that their needs, wants, politics would be different and therefore so would their mode of travel and what they need to live, work and be happy. Why would they even want to equate themselves with creatures that are not anything like themselves?

[AntiChri5]

Also, keep in mind that all species you meet got to the advanced stage they are at now by using "prothean" technology. It is entirely possible that races very different are stuck on their own worlds because they are too different to adapt it.

[Nightodie]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Also, keep in mind that all species you meet got to the advanced stage they are at now by using "prothean" technology. It is entirely possible that races very different are stuck on their own worlds because they are too different to adapt it.

and this^^

[Lucy Glitter]

shepard_lives wrote...

Oh please.

One of the MAIN themes of the game is the deconstruction of the "Planet Of Hats" trend: every goddamn race presents different individuals.
Let's take the turians for instance: you defined them "militaristic". Let's take a look at their job descriptions, shall we?
There are turian mercenaries, turian Presidium Groundskeepers, turian barkeeps, turian merchants and more. Same goes for personalities: Saren was a homicidal ******, whereas Garrus is remarkably well-adjusted and morally upstanding.
Now, asari. Asari mercenaries, asari merchants, asari bartenders, asari vigilantes, asari crimelords: we've got all these and more. Think about that for a while and you'll see you can do that with all the other races. The short description you give (nerdy, militaristic, wise) is merely a stereotype that other races have of the race (man, I said race a lot of times).

And humans are regarded so highly because they're the next big thing: they arrived 30 years ago and they spread at an incredible rate while quickly advancing up the "food chain". It's not like they're presented as superior: much like in many other settings, they're the jack-of-all-trades race. They're not as strong as a krogan or as smart as a salarian or as wise as an asari (keep in mind, though, that we have indeed met our fair share of weak krogan, stupid salarians and above all idiotic asari), but they 've got a little bit of everything.
Also, do you even pay attention to the dialogues? Some aliens see humans as admirably skilled and special and others (maybe the majority) see them as vermin who spread alarmingly quickly.

Now, about humanoid races... first and foremost, look at AntiChri5's post. Bipedal and with two arms doesn't mean humanoid, no it doesn't. And even if it did, we've got hanar, elcor, volus, rachni, yahg, frickin' Reapers, plenty of nonhumanoid species.
Other very valid reasons for the existence of humanoid aliens are:
* Convergent evolution. The "two arms, two legs" model is quite useful for sentient species.
* Programming. How the hell do you create weapons, armor, dialogue or even a 3D model for a gas particle alien?
* It's a videogame. Videogames are supposed to be fun, not realistic or reasonable. And, I, myself, think Mass Effect is ridiculously fun. So stop torturing yourself with questions and enjoy the experience.

That is all.

Nice post. Thanks

Just as a side note, though, I never said more logical looking aliens wouldn't be near impossible to animate or whatever. I am not looking at the game from a development perspective, I am looking at it through a writer's perspective. I still love the games, too, it's just a niggling irritation of mine.

Nightodie wrote...

Actually I was thinking along different lines. It is not odd for like species to congragate. Hence the 2 arms 2 legged creatures will tend to end up in the same place. If there were creatures who were intelligent but looked different isn't it possible that their needs, wants, politics would be different and therefore so would their mode of travel and what they need to live, work and be happy. Why would they even want to equate themselves with creatures that are not anything like themselves?

AntiChri5 wrote...

Also, keep in mind that all species you meet got to the advanced stage they are at now by using "prothean" technology. It is entirely possible that races very different are stuck on their own worlds because they are too different to adapt it.

Two brilliant points made. I never looked at it like that, thanks!!

Modifié par Lucy_Glitter, 14 octobre 2010 - 02:57 .

[Shepard Lives]

Lucy_Glitter wrote...

Nice post. Thanks

That's what I'm here for.

[Lucy Glitter]

[Mox Ruuga]

Mmm...

Hedy Lamarr

...what was the topic again?

Oh yes, Mass Effect is generic, and derivative. But its fun!

[Pacifien]

Lucy_Glitter wrote...
*snip*
Alright, so, I can accept one or two alien species having a similar structure to humans, like I said originally, I can suspend my disbelief to that.

I get thingy when I see it in all the aliens, I guess that's my gripe. The lack of diversity in the alien bodies. I should have been more clear, apologies, everyone.

Problem with just about all science fiction created in a visual medium is that you're unlikely to find huge diversity in alien design. A good deal of that is limitation of the medium, but for a game where you're not limited to human actors and can manipulate the environments quite readily, you'd think you could get away with a great deal more variety.

Only from reading up on how the developers designed certain aliens, from seeing commentary on other science fiction shows, the greatest hurdle in getting completely off the wall with alien design is the human audience. To understand the environment and the creatures that inhabit it, they need to be able to relate to them.

You see this

and you're instantly sympathetic in spite of the fact the cat has a sword and wants to stab you to death.

Age old question: why does Liara have eyebrows? Psychology of reading faces. Ever seen someone without eyebrows? Something is off, something about them is not right, somehow they are a bit more sinister. Now, of course, we know plenty of eyebrowless Asari who we don't deem as sinister beings, but Liara being designed as a love interest probably needed a distinctly human aesthetic. I don't doubt that if you introduce two new people to the character and show one a Liara with eyebrows and another person sees the one without, the person who saw the one with eyebrows will describe a character with a great more emotion displayed on her face.

Even the psychology of mind, if I try to describe my concept for how an adaptive, transient artificial intelligence like the geth can work, people don't follow me because I'm describing something completely different from the human mind.

Mass Effect is designed for a large audience in the manner of Star Trek, Star Wars, Farscape and a multitude of other science fiction/science fantasy/speculative fiction creative works. While I am a huge fan of hard science fiction, I have been disappointed time and again with the various visual mediums trying to capture such a concept in regards to aliens. So I don't ever expect it. Such an environment panders to a very small group which doesn't make a lot of business sense.

[Saibh]

Lucy_Glitter wrote...
I get thingy when I see it in all the aliens, I guess that's my gripe. The lack of diversity in the alien bodies. I should have been more clear, apologies, everyone.

Think also about the game engine.

We only see an elcor move once, and that's in a cutscene, because of how difficult it would be to animate them. Any bipedal species can be animated to move the same way. You need enemies, and they need to be able to pick up guns and shoot.

Ok, Liara's apartment in LotSB. She has wine glasses, bread boards... KNIVES. Didn't Asari have their own cutlery? Did they even have cutlery?? WHATT?!?!?

Knives are a sharp piece of metal with one edge (usually) on the end of a blunt stick. This is a very basic tool for any sapient creature to have. What do you think asari knives should look like? Katanas? Do you think they lack chewy, tough food that needs to be sliced open, or that they prefer eating everything in one whole?

The argument would be, of course, well why can't they be like us? Uh, well Jimmy, the chance of having another completely different species on an entirely different planet evolve in the exact same way as us is... 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 (etc.) to one chance. It's pretty slim. For a whole lot of species? Um, yeah. No.

Familiarity is important. People need to be able to recognize and understand aliens well enough in a setting that doesn't focus on our relationship with them. In a movie like District 9, they can afford aliens with a much different psychosis because there's, a) only one other species and the story focuses on prawn-human dynamics. But, for the purposes of this story, there are many different types of species and the story is primarily human based.

Mass Effect also works to subvert old science tropes of how a species coming from one planet will have one defining characteristic. In sci-fi, the quarians would usually be referred to as Quarians and they'd come from the planet Quaria. Just as we come from Humania. As much as it seems like you can define the asari and salarians and krogan and vorcha into neat and tidy groups, Mass Effect proves time and again that they are individuals. You can make some reasonable guesses about their attitude and personality, but you'll rarely be spot on. Garrus is nothing like the Turian Councilor. Liara is nothing like Samara. Feron is nothing like Thane.

Now, not only do I dislike that, but you know what really gets me? A number of times in ME2, I come across aliens saying how AMAZING humans are. They really make human out to be the best. Samara is one. Yep, I said it. Humans, even in space, amidst a crapload of other species, are supposed to be new and innovative and passionate and diverse...

A new species will never be as detailed and complex as humanity. They are fictional, and it is impossible. We have thousands of years of culture that no writer can match. They'd be foolish to try. Instead, they do what makes sense: use their own species as a launching pad for others and acknowledge our diversity amongst aliens invented by just a few people who don't have the weight of thousands of years of culture to back them up.

I think one line from Samara is: ""Yours is a very interesting species. For example, if there are three humans in a room, there will be six opinions."

I'm not sure where you're thinking Samara is sitting there hailing all humans as disagreeable gods. She says they're very diverse--and that's humanity's biggest trait. This isn't unrepentant worship of us naked apes.

Modifié par Saibh, 14 octobre 2010 - 03:18 .

[the_one_54321]

I agree with Lucy.



Personal Opinion to follow!!



It's probably one of the few things I actively disliked about the the ME story world. (the others that come to mind is the complete and utter lack of an explanation for why everyone speaks the same language and the 3rd person perspective and cover system) I thought all the races were really neat. I loved hearing about these different alien cultures. I loved the juxtapositions they created between characters through race and such. I really liked that there were even some races that were not humanoid in the slightest. Like the race that communicates through bio-luminescence.



I absolutely cannot stand that they have to make the races feel relatable, visually and emotionally. In some ways emotional repeatability is awesome for story presentation. In that they have to create faces that are human reminiscent, it most certainly is not. They could have done without that. They could have use story, position, background, conflict, relationships, anything at all like that to make you relate to the alien characters. Just look at District 9. Those aliens were literally bugs and the director managed to get you to sympathize with them.



And don't even get me started on the love and sex with aliens things. That is just outright disturbing.

[AntiChri5]

the_one_54321 wrote...

 utter lack of an explanation for why everyone speaks the same language

The codex says.....

Technology: TranslationHuman cultures remain linguistically divided. Some converse in Spanish, others in Mandarin, Arabic, Swahili, etc. Every alien race has their own equally broad panoply of languages and dialects.Most individuals know only their mother tongue, and rely on machine translation. Modern portable computers allow anyone with a few hundred credits of equipment to enjoy seamless real-time translation of alien languages, courtesy of handheld PDAs, computers in clothing or jewelry, or sub-dermal implants. Without fast and accurate translation, galactic trade and culture would not exist.Governments provide subsidized software, updated through the public extranet "on the fly", often as users approach spaceport customs facilities. Even the batarians, who isolated themselves from galactic society nearly two decades ago, take pains to provide up-to-date glossaries and linguistic rules, though most suspect that this is only so they can continue exporting propaganda.It is still considered broad-minded and practical to be able to speak without machine aid. Children often take courses in alien language, and most races can speak the simplified artificial "trade tongue" with little difficulty.Some species must rely on machine translation to interact with the rest of the galaxy. Hanar, for example, cannot reproduce the spoken language of any humanoid species, and other races cannot reproduce hanar bioluminescence without mechanical aid. Newly discovered or obscure races don't have machine translation available until the linguists have had time to study them.

Modifié par AntiChri5, 14 octobre 2010 - 03:15 .

[the_one_54321]

AntiChri5 wrote...

The codex says.....
Technology: TranslationHuman cultures remain linguistically divided. Some converse in Spanish, others in Mandarin, Arabic, Swahili, etc. Every alien race has their own equally broad panoply of languages and dialects.Most individuals know only their mother tongue, and rely on machine translation. Modern portable computers allow anyone with a few hundred credits of equipment to enjoy seamless real-time translation of alien languages, courtesy of handheld PDAs, computers in clothing or jewelry, or sub-dermal implants. Without fast and accurate translation, galactic trade and culture would not exist.Governments provide subsidized software, updated through the public extranet "on the fly", often as users approach spaceport customs facilities. Even the batarians, who isolated themselves from galactic society nearly two decades ago, take pains to provide up-to-date glossaries and linguistic rules, though most suspect that this is only so they can continue exporting propaganda.It is still considered broad-minded and practical to be able to speak without machine aid. Children often take courses in alien language, and most races can speak the simplified artificial "trade tongue" with little difficulty.Some species must rely on machine translation to interact with the rest of the galaxy. Hanar, for example, cannot reproduce the spoken language of any humanoid species, and other races cannot reproduce hanar bioluminescence without mechanical aid. Newly discovered or obscure races don't have machine translation available until the linguists have had time to study them.

That one is new to me, thanks.

[OneDrunkMonk]

Well it's just artistic license and the fact that us humans relate better to other anthropoids. I mean...Do gaseous energy clouds have side boob? So right there you see that Mass Effect is Science FICTION and meant for humans to enjoy and relate to.



I will say that I agree that humans get a little too much consideration in the Mass Effect universe based upon it's own lore. I mean...By Mass Effect lore the intergalactic community has been around and interacting with each other long before humans came across FTL technology and yet somehow humanity has been able to become one of the major players in the Mass Effect universe in a very short time. Not to mention the fact that Shepard is nothing more than a good leader with a very talented squad to back him/her up. The only reason Shepard stands out is because he happens to be part of a winning team.

[the_one_54321]

OneDrunkMonk wrote...

Well it's just artistic license and the fact that us humans relate better to other anthropoids. I mean...Do gaseous energy clouds have side boob? So right there you see that Mass Effect is Science FICTION and meant for humans to enjoy and relate to.

I think there are much better ways of doing it.

If you stop and think about it rather than go with your gut reaction to what's presented, the fact that any of the aliens can have side boob is pretty ridiculously nonsensical.

Again, I'm going to refer back to District 9, because they got it right. They touched on all manner of things that we can relate to given our world. Theft, oppression, scavenging, exploitation, family, duty, determination, ambition, empathy, apathy, survival, inter-species sex. All with a species that people called Prawns because they are basically giant bugs. And they treated it all correctly. Inter-species sex was implied to be a perversion. Oppression of the alien species was exposed as abuse and "inhumane" treatment. Survival and the notions of duty and determination and family were shown to cross the borders of species.

They took the time to convince you that these bugs were also people.

In ME they just take human personalities and stick alien skins on them. That was not the right way to do it. I liked the character of Ashely because her points of view were the only ones that actually made sense to have in the situations presented in the first game. Not that I thought she was automatically right, but that this was the way things should be presented and progress from there. Instead we're given her view point as though it's already automatically wrong and we need to treat it as an obstacle.

Don't get me wrong though. I did actually really enjoy playing the game. This was just one of the few things that I thought they really did wrong. Especially considering that they did such an awesome job developing the cultures behind these races. They give you a wide ranging and diverse set of aliens races that you can learn about and your own group of samples that you can converse with, but then they treat them all like they're just everyday people right from the start. Lost potential, in my mind.

[Saibh]

the_one_54321 wrote...
I think there are much better ways of doing it.
If you stop and think about it rather than go with your gut reaction to what's presented, the fact that any of the aliens can have side boob is pretty ridiculously nonsensical.
Again, I'm going to refer back to District 9, because they got it right. They touched on all manner of things that we can relate to given our world. Theft, oppression, scavenging, exploitation, family, duty, determination, ambition, empathy, apathy, survival, inter-species sex. All with a species that people called Prawns because they are basically giant bugs. And they treated it all correctly. Inter-species sex was implied to be a perversion. Oppression of the alien species was exposed as abuse and "inhumane" treatment. Survival and the notions of duty and determination and family were shown to cross the borders of species.

I said this earlier...

"Familiarity is important. People need to be able to recognize and understand aliens well enough in a setting that doesn't focus on our relationship with them. In a movie like District 9, they can afford aliens with a much different psychosis because there's, a) only one other species and the story focuses on prawn-human dynamics. But, for the purposes of this story, there are many different types of species and the story is primarily human based."

Also.

I'm pretty sure they're named after the seafood, not the New Zealand pest.

There was also problems with making the prawn sympathetic. Pacifien's post goes into detail about that. Christopher acted far more human, and was therefore likable. He was chosen as the prawn we were supposed to feel for. Not the murderous thieving drone kind.

Modifié par Saibh, 14 octobre 2010 - 03:52 .

[AntiChri5]

Not to mention that it is the entire plot of District 9, and a side issue in Mass Effect.

[the_one_54321]

Saibh wrote...
Familiarity is important. People need to be able to recognize and understand aliens well enough in a setting that doesn't focus onour relationship with them. In a movie like District 9, they can afford aliens with a much different psychosis because there's, a) only one other species and the story focuses on prawn-human dynamics. But, for the purposes of this story, there are many different types of species and the story is primarily human based.

Saibh wrote...
There was also problems with making the prawn sympathetic. Pacifien's post goes into detail about that. Christopher acted far more human, and was therefore likable. He was chosen as the prawn we were supposed to feel for. Not the murderous thieving drone kind.

The differences you're listing between the settings aren't really as significant as you're making them out to be.
For one, we're given an individual from each of a number of species to directly interact with. And we're given dialog at length with each of these characters and even missions that deal specificaly with their back story and our relationship with them. You can spend as much time interacting with these individual characters through actual dialog and through overhearing "banter" as the entire length of the movie District 9. But instead of creacting this kind of development during this time, they just treat them like everyday companions and even have elaborate ways for you to form romantic relationships with some of them.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 14 octobre 2010 - 03:54 .