140 réponses à ce sujet

[Saibh]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Saibh wrote...
By that logic, it would be wrong for a cop to arrest crooks, because he is imposing his morality upon the criminal's. What difference does it make if society tells him he's right? They're just imposing their beliefs.

Incorrect.  There are different interpretations regarding the philosophy of law.  I lean towards both legal positivism and realism,  but I wouldn't consider myself either an expert or a zealot regarding my opinion.

I wouldn't personally link to one philosophy to prove your other philosophy. It's irrelevant--you might believe that society may make decisions upon law and justice as a whole and be correct, but I could argue that they haven't the right as they cannot judge me from my own moral standpoint.

[upsettingshorts]

Saibh wrote...
I wouldn't personally link to one philosophy to prove your other philosophy. It's irrelevant--you might believe that society may make decisions upon law and justice as a whole and be correct, but I could argue that they haven't the right as they cannot judge me from my own moral standpoint.

I only stated it was incorrect because you said that you were using my logic to prove something that wouldn't make sense using my logic. 

Your philosophy is perfectly valid.

Your interpretation of the consequences of my philosophy was incorrect.

I wouldn't have much credibility if I were to shrug at Qunari society in one post and be critical of your views in the next.

[Saibh]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Saibh wrote...
I wouldn't personally link to one philosophy to prove your other philosophy. It's irrelevant--you might believe that society may make decisions upon law and justice as a whole and be correct, but I could argue that they haven't the right as they cannot judge me from my own moral standpoint.

I only stated it was incorrect because you said that you were using my logic to prove something that wouldn't make sense using my logic. 

My fault then, for misunderstanding.   I doubt you will be convinced by me, and I am a stubborn b1tch, so I suppose I'll leave it at that.

I wouldn't have much credibility if I were to shrug at Qunari society in one post and be critical of your views in the next.

Perhaps not, but I would have steepled my hands gleefully.

[EmperorSahlertz]

They are only oppressed if they feel oppressed, or if they are treated badly against the law. And neither of these happens to be the case with (most at least) Qunari Mages.

[tmp7704]

Corker wrote...

Not. I'll pass on something that sounds an awful lot like "woman learns to love the man who beats her."

But between unability to talk and the size difference between Hawke and the qunari there's potential for delicious ICO spin-off here.
Should be Ladyhawke and male qunari mage, though. Imagine all the interpretations one could draw from it

[Herr Uhl]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They are only oppressed if they feel oppressed, or if they are treated badly against the law. And neither of these happens to be the case with (most at least) Qunari Mages.

I don't think that most of the mages like the way they're treated, that is an assumption on your part.

[tmp7704]

Herr Uhl wrote...

I don't think that most of the mages like the way they're treated, that is an assumption on your part.

Well, they never voice an objection, do they.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Herr Uhl wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They are only oppressed if they feel oppressed, or if they are treated badly against the law. And neither of these happens to be the case with (most at least) Qunari Mages.

I don't think that most of the mages like the way they're treated, that is an assumption on your part.

Wouldn't it be jsut as much of an assumption on your part?

If the mages of the Qunari have been taught from the beginning of their lives that their place is on the leash of a handler, they might actually accept it as their place in society. Just like farmer Qunari accept that their place is on a farm. If other Qunari have no wish to change their lot in life, why would the mages want to?

[nightcobra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They are only oppressed if they feel oppressed, or if they are treated badly against the law. And neither of these happens to be the case with (most at least) Qunari Mages.

I don't think that most of the mages like the way they're treated, that is an assumption on your part.

Wouldn't it be jsut as much of an assumption on your part?

If the mages of the Qunari have been taught from the beginning of their lives that their place is on the leash of a handler, they might actually accept it as their place in society. Just like farmer Qunari accept that their place is on a farm. If other Qunari have no wish to change their lot in life, why would the mages want to?

i don't know...it'd be interesting to see a mage tal'vashoth.

[Herr Uhl]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They are only oppressed if they feel oppressed, or if they are treated badly against the law. And neither of these happens to be the case with (most at least) Qunari Mages.

I don't think that most of the mages like the way they're treated, that is an assumption on your part.

Wouldn't it be jsut as much of an assumption on your part?

If the mages of the Qunari have been taught from the beginning of their lives that their place is on the leash of a handler, they might actually accept it as their place in society. Just like farmer Qunari accept that their place is on a farm. If other Qunari have no wish to change their lot in life, why would the mages want to?

Because they are not seen as Qunari, they are seen as tools. There is a big difference between being caged and working with one thing for your whole life. As a farmer you still have rights as an individual, that is taken away once you become a mage.

And a mage would not be discovered until they manifest their powers, something that happens in the teens for humans and Elves (I presume the age is similar for Qunari). At that stage they're already well on their way to becoming something else, like your farmer. Then their wills would be systematically broken down until they are little more than beasts.

If that isn't oppressive behavior, I don't know what is.

[NKKKK]

I'm with Saibh, the Qunari need to change and if an invasion is the only way. Well then by golly gee.

[tool_bot]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

To do otherwise would be to assume my cultural superiority, and that would be prejudicial and racist.

Damn... oh well, racial bigotry and prejudice it is.

[tool_bot]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If the mages of the Qunari have been taught from the beginning of their lives that their place is on the leash of a handler, they might actually accept it as their place in society. Just like farmer Qunari accept that their place is on a farm. If other Qunari have no wish to change their lot in life, why would the mages want to?

Personally, just me, frankly don't care if any of you agree with me, that's largely why I would do it. Conditioning a whole people to love and embrace their own slavery (especially when no option well ever be given to them and those that turn away from the lifestyle will become villified and hated) is something I, personally, just me, frankly don't care if you agree, can't tolerate.

[AlexXIV]

Is a female qunari mage with tongue for LI out of question? Could be one of those rogue ones who don't follow the Qun.

[mousestalker]

AlexXIV wrote...

Is a female qunari mage with tongue for LI out of question? Could be one of those rogue ones who don't follow the Qun.

That would be a fascinating companion for Hawke. It would be really cool to get the heretic's view of the Qun.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Herr Uhl wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They are only oppressed if they feel oppressed, or if they are treated badly against the law. And neither of these happens to be the case with (most at least) Qunari Mages.

I don't think that most of the mages like the way they're treated, that is an assumption on your part.

Wouldn't it be jsut as much of an assumption on your part?

If the mages of the Qunari have been taught from the beginning of their lives that their place is on the leash of a handler, they might actually accept it as their place in society. Just like farmer Qunari accept that their place is on a farm. If other Qunari have no wish to change their lot in life, why would the mages want to?

Because they are not seen as Qunari, they are seen as tools. There is a big difference between being caged and working with one thing for your whole life. As a farmer you still have rights as an individual, that is taken away once you become a mage.

And a mage would not be discovered until they manifest their powers, something that happens in the teens for humans and Elves (I presume the age is similar for Qunari). At that stage they're already well on their way to becoming something else, like your farmer. Then their wills would be systematically broken down until they are little more than beasts.

If that isn't oppressive behavior, I don't know what is.

And all of what you just said depends on the fact that whatever the task the Qunari are best suited for is decided before adolesence. For all we know it is a process which takes many years so perhaps the mage's talents has already shown before he is given his role.

tool_bot wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If the mages of the Qunari have been taught from the beginning of their lives that their place is on the leash of a handler, they might actually accept it as their place in society. Just like farmer Qunari accept that their place is on a farm. If other Qunari have no wish to change their lot in life, why would the mages want to?

Personally, just me, frankly don't care if any of you agree with me, that's largely why I would do it. Conditioning a whole people to love and embrace their own slavery (especially when no option well ever be given to them and those that turn away from the lifestyle will become villified and hated) is something I, personally, just me, frankly don't care if you agree, can't tolerate.

What makes you think the Qunari would even care what you think about their society? And who are you to judge an entire society based on the standards imprinted on you by your own society?

[pizoxuat]

There's no qunari female model, so prepare for disappointment.



To further stomp on dreams, I am sure all the companion dialog has been written and most likely voice acted by now.

[Daerog]

Yes, I would like to free a qunari mage from the qunari culture as it is now.

Then I would also like to send that qunari mage to the nearest Circle of Magi tower along with Hawke who will also be a mage.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 15 octobre 2010 - 02:11 .

[upsettingshorts]

tool_bot wrote...
Personally, just me, frankly don't care if any of you agree with me, that's largely why I would do it. Conditioning a whole people to love and embrace their own slavery (especially when no option well ever be given to them and those that turn away from the lifestyle will become villified and hated) is something I, personally, just me, frankly don't care if you agree, can't tolerate.

NKKKK wrote...
I'm with Saibh, the Qunari need to change I want the Qunari to change and if an invasion is the only way. Well then by golly gee.

What you might call liberation could also very easily be called cultural imperialism.  You know, the "White Man's Burden."  As you're not just freeing mages from caged slavery but waging a war of ideology on the very concept of the Qun.

A war with the Qunari is inherently justifiable as one of defense - especially if they're invading Kirkwall, but I have a hard time accepting imposed cultural change as anything more than selfish.  Altruism doesn't come uninvited carrying weapons, and unless the Qunari move to "free" themselves - something which would open the door for involvement from someone who feels as I do -  then I don't see what is to be gained by such an action other than to make you feel better about them.

Their culture doesn't exist for foreigners to pass judgement on it.  It exists because they made it.  

Herr Uhl wrote...
If that isn't oppressive behavior, I don't know what is.

It may very well be, but where does it end?  For the player or any character seeking to "liberate" some aspect of Qunari society.  Let's say you free the mages, what next?  What if a farmer wants to become a blacksmith or sailor?  What if a soldier wants to leave the army and go become a baker?  What about the feudal nature of Ferelden politics?  What about the elves in the Alienage? What about the Dalish?  What about the casteless Dwarves?  What about the dwarven caste system itself ? What about mages under Chantry control?  What about the lyrium-addicted Templars?

The path of liberating people because your conscience demands it is a difficult and slippery one, and where you end up drawing the line ends up saying more about you than the people you've chosen to liberate.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 octobre 2010 - 03:40 .

[AtreiyaN7]

We're not getting a qunari female of any sort in DA2. While I would find another qunari companion interesting, it's just not happening right now. Maybe you'll see qunari females in future DA games. *shrug*

[hangmans tree]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

tool_bot wrote...
Personally, just me, frankly don't care if any of you agree with me, that's largely why I would do it. Conditioning a whole people to love and embrace their own slavery (especially when no option well ever be given to them and those that turn away from the lifestyle will become villified and hated) is something I, personally, just me, frankly don't care if you agree, can't tolerate.

NKKKK wrote...
I'm with Saibh, the Qunari need to change I want the Qunari to change and if an invasion is the only way. Well then by golly gee.

What you might call liberation could also very easily be called cultural imperialism.  You know, the "White Man's Burden."  As you're not just freeing mages from caged slavery but waging a war of ideology on the very concept of the Qun.

A war with the Qunari is inherently justifiable as one of defense - especially if they're invading Kirkwall, but I have a hard time accepting imposed cultural change as anything more than selfish.  Altruism doesn't come uninvited carrying weapons, and unless the Qunari move to "free" themselves - something which would open the door for involvement from someone who feels as I do -  then I don't see what is to be gained by such an action other than to make you feel better about them.

Their culture doesn't exist for foreigners to pass judgement on it.  It exists because they made it.  

Herr Uhl wrote...
If that isn't oppressive behavior, I don't know what is.

It may very well be, but where does it end?  For the player or any character seeking to "liberate" some aspect of Qunari society.  Let's say you free the mages, what next?  What if a farmer wants to become a blacksmith or sailor?  What if a soldier wants to leave the army and go become a baker?  What about the feudal nature of Ferelden politics?  What about the elves in the Alienage? What about the Dalish?  What about the casteless Dwarves?  What about the dwarven caste system itself ? What about mages under Chantry control?  What about the lyrium-addicted Templars?

The path of liberating people because your conscience demands it is a difficult and slippery one, and where you end up drawing the line ends up saying more about you than the people you've chosen to liberate.

And it's okay for the Qunari to invade Thedas and bring enlighement on other less fortunate societies? What, their view of our society is more valid? By which/whose standards? What does your relativism say about Qun invading your personal space with a stake up your ass? Still do not have a right to judge their approach to your relatively passive form of self-determination (dunno if I worded it right)?

Liberating? Rather giving a choice.

Modifié par hangmans tree, 15 octobre 2010 - 06:41 .

[upsettingshorts]

hangmans tree wrote...
And it's okay for the Qunari to invade Thedas and bring enlighement on other less fortunate societies? What, their view of our society is more valid? By which/whose standards? What does your relativism say about Qun invading your personal space with a stake up your ass? Still do not have a right to judge their approach to your relatively passive form of self-determination (dunno if I worded it right)?

Liberating? Rather giving a choice.

Actually, I'm glad you brought up that argument*, because I think it validates mine.  It is not okay for the Qunari to invade human lands in order to spread/enforce the Qun.  Nor is it okay for me to advocate the reverse.   Which is why I said defensive wars against the Qunari are inherently justified. Spreading a culture through force of arms is not altruism.  I feel my position - and thus the distinction - is fairly consistent.

I don't buy your distinction between liberation and your concept of choice.  The Qunari - and indeed everyone everywhere - always have a choice, some choose to leave the Qun behind - but they're rare enough apparently that it hasn't resulted in either an armed revolt or some kind of grassroots political movement.

And finally I wouldnt categorize my position as passive self-determination.  While I could certainly hope the Qunari self-determinate to change their ways, my position is more about believing unwanted intervention of the sort called for in this thread is not only wrong, but misguided.   If there was an active revolt or political movement among the Qunari to overthrow the law of the Qun, and they asked me (or, my character) for assistance, I would have to examine my options and weigh the potential consequences of getting involved.  I still might not, for practical reasons, but the philosophical hurdle I set for myself before choosing to get involved would have been cleared.


* It's actually one of the three arguments I was genuinely waiting for.  The others both involve real world examples and they're actually more difficult for me to answer - but I'm not gonna give out counterarguments for free.  Well, unless you PM me.


...I'm not crazy...

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 octobre 2010 - 07:02 .

[Felfenix]

Herr Uhl wrote...

the lack of tongue and minimal chances that the mage would understand any language other than Qunari would make communication strenuous.

It's not like Sten talked that much, and commucation with him was strenuous enough, IMO.

Herr Uhl wrote...

Why a female mage and not a male btw?

Apparently women need rescuing more than men, exotic women turn him on, rescuing damsels is his thing, and women are all supposed to be spellcasting healers.

[Anarya]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

hangmans tree wrote...
And it's okay for the Qunari to invade Thedas and bring enlighement on other less fortunate societies? What, their view of our society is more valid? By which/whose standards? What does your relativism say about Qun invading your personal space with a stake up your ass? Still do not have a right to judge their approach to your relatively passive form of self-determination (dunno if I worded it right)?

Liberating? Rather giving a choice.

Actually, I'm glad you brought up that argument*, because I think it validates mine.  It is not okay for the Qunari to invade human lands in order to spread/enforce the Qun.  Which is why I said defensive wars against the Qunari are inherently justified. Nor is it okay for me to advocate the reverse.   Spreading a culture through force of arms is not altruism.  I feel my position - and thus the distinction - is fairly consistent.

I don't buy your distinction between liberation and your concept of choice.  The Qunari - and indeed everyone everywhere - always have a choice, some choose to leave the Qun behind - but they're rare enough apparently that it hasn't resulted in either an armed revolt or some kind of grassroots political movement.

And finally I wouldnt categorize my position as passive self-determination.  While I could certainly hope the Qunari self-determinate to change their ways, my position is more about believing unwanted intervention of the sort called for in this thread is not only wrong, but misguided.   If there was an active revolt or political movement among the Qunari to overthrow the law of the Qun, and they asked me (or, my character) for assistance, I would have to examine my options and weigh the potential consequences of getting involved.  I still might not, for practical reasons, but the philosophical hurdle I set for myself before choosing to get involved would have been cleared.


* It's actually one of the three arguments I was genuinely waiting for.  The others both involve real world examples and they're actually more difficult for me to answer - but I'm not gonna give out counterarguments for free


...I'm not crazy...

I don't think everyone everywhere has a choice in their circumstances. You can't just pull yourself up by your bootstraps in every situation no matter what the American Dream mythos may be.

I don't think a North Korean, for example, or a woman under the Taliban has any choice at all. It would take resources beyond their means to escape, so in a practical sense they don't have a choice.