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[Leonia]

Coming late to this but.. I see where Shorts is going. It's a lot like the burqua debate.. should one culture dictate what another culture can wear because it thinks that other culture is being oppressive to women? But the women of that culture don't think they are being oppressed and don't want the other culture to control what they can wear.



Whose morality rules supreme?

[upsettingshorts]

Anarya wrote...
I don't think everyone everywhere has a choice in their circumstances. You can't just pull yourself up by your bootstraps in every situation no matter what the American Dream mythos may be.

I don't think a North Korean, for example, or a woman under the Taliban has any choice at all. It would take resources beyond their means to escape, so in a practical sense they don't have a choice.

Oh they have a choice.  But for them the choice is "is this worth getting executed by the state?"  In the case of many - though not all - popular revolutions throughout history, people have decided the answer is yes.  Often such sacrifices end up being meaningless and forgotten, which is tragic.  But other they can also lead to an increase in popular sentiment, leading to a true uprising.  It's not an easy thing to ask people to do of course, but then, neither is changing their culture through force of arms.  

The choice is always there.  You're right in that it is often completely impractical to make it.   At some point though, practicality loses out to willpower, and then the world changes.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 octobre 2010 - 07:13 .

[Anarya]

I used to be a cultural relativist in a blanket sense. Now I just resort to making my own judgment calls on a case-by-case basis. Some things are just too egregious as human rights violations to be considered okay.



I personally consider the Qunari's treatment of mages to be not-okay.

[GodWood]

hangmans tree wrote...
I want to appeal to the higher Gaider Court:
case is I would like (a chance) to have a Qunari female mage in my party. Preferably a rescued one, from a handler.

I wouldn't want to do that.
I like the way qunari society is run and (in character within the context of the game) see the reason behind their treatment of mages.

Modifié par GodWood, 15 octobre 2010 - 07:17 .

[ShrinkingFish]

leonia42 wrote...

Coming late to this but.. I see where Shorts is going. It's a lot like the burqua debate.. should one culture dictate what another culture can wear because it thinks that other culture is being oppressive to women? But the women of that culture don't think they are being oppressed and don't want the other culture to control what they can wear.

Whose morality rules supreme?

Thank you for this.

Neither the Qunari or any of the myriad of Thedas cultures occupy the positions of "Good" nor "Evil".

They are all simply different cultures with different cultural outlooks and practices. As such they are often times opposed, but these are not conflicts between Jedi and Sith, or Gandalf and Sauron, or the Theistic God versus Theistic Satan. They are simply conflicts between people. Most notably contrasting the conflicts between Western and Eastern cultures, both of which "others" the opposition in an attempts to distance themselves from them, establish themselves as superior, and vilify their competiton.

[Anarya]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Anarya wrote...
I don't think everyone everywhere has a choice in their circumstances. You can't just pull yourself up by your bootstraps in every situation no matter what the American Dream mythos may be.

I don't think a North Korean, for example, or a woman under the Taliban has any choice at all. It would take resources beyond their means to escape, so in a practical sense they don't have a choice.

Oh they have a choice.  But for them the choice is "is this worth getting executed by the state?"  In the case of many - though not all - popular revolutions throughout history, people have decided the answer is yes.  Often such sacrifices end up being meaningless and forgotten, which is tragic.  But other they can also lead to an increase in popular sentiment, leading to a true uprising.  It's not an easy thing to ask people to do of course, but then, neither is changing their culture through force of arms.  

The choice is always there.  You're right in that it is often completely impractical to make it.   At some point though, practicality loses out to willpower, and then the world changes.

That's a very idealistic viewpoint. If it's a choice of "submit or die" it isn't much of a choice at all. Not everyone can start a revolution, for many reasons. It doesn't mean they're enduring their circumstances by choice.

[upsettingshorts]

Anarya wrote...

I personally consider the Qunari's treatment of mages to be not-okay.

And that's not really my point of dispute. It's not like there's a scenario out there that causes the Qunari to free their mages - at least free them a bit, so they're like the Circle Mages perhaps - and admit, "No you're right, we were totally wrong about that." Ultimately it's going to come down to their way of life versus yours (or Hawke's, or whoever's).  

I think the OP or the player or any number of people in this thread could save one Qunari mage, a dozen of them, maybe even hundreds - without resorting to the kind of cultural imperialism I'm talking about.  But to free all of them, now and for the future?  That's entirely different.

Anarya wrote...
That's a very idealistic viewpoint. If it's a choice of "submit or die" it isn't much of a choice at all. Not everyone can start a revolution, for many reasons. It doesn't mean they're enduring their circumstances by choice.

I'd actually say it's pessimistic. Very few people are capable of making that choice. Those that do ought to be respected - beyond ideological differences - for their courage.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 octobre 2010 - 07:21 .

[ShrinkingFish]

Also... to address a trend throughout this thread as well as throughout the majority of Western opinions.



Eastern Countries are not nearly as oppressive and controlling as Western Countries assume them to be. They just have completely different ways of thinking, different words and different definitions that cannot be translated and therefore are widely and almost entirely misinterpreted by our cultures.



And standing in the position of the Western Middle to Upper class and passing moral judgments down on people we will never be able to understand or relate to is arrogant at best and disgusting in most cases.

[Anarya]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Anarya wrote...

I personally consider the Qunari's treatment of mages to be not-okay.

And that's not really my point of dispute. It's not like there's a scenario out there that causes the Qunari to free their mages - at least free them a bit, so they're like the Circle Mages perhaps - and admit, "No you're right, we were totally wrong about that." Ultimately it's going to come down to their way of life versus yours (or Hawke's, or whoever's)

Anarya wrote...
That's a very idealistic viewpoint. If it's a choice of "submit or die" it isn't much of a choice at all. Not everyone can start a revolution, for many reasons. It doesn't mean they're enduring their circumstances by choice.

I'd actually say it's pessimistic. Very few people are capable of making that choice. Those that do ought to be respected - beyond ideological differences - for their courage.

I'm saying if it's not a choice available to everyone, then you can't say everyone chooses their fate. I mean, I will never have the capabilities to try out for the Olympics. I guess if you wanted to argue semantics you could say I choose not to try for it, but it's beyond my abilities. I'm literally incapable of doing it, so realistically it's not a choice open to me.

[Leonia]

I reckon this is the sort of debate the devs want us to have, given the cultural differences in Thedas and the impending Qunari invasion. Things have never been black or white in Dragon Age, whether you talking about the Chantry, the Qun, the Tevinter Magisters, etc. Bet ya the writers are reading this and grinning at their ability to get us to think a little outside the box about cultural differences.

[ShrinkingFish]

leonia42 wrote...

I reckon this is the sort of debate the devs want us to have, given the cultural differences in Thedas and the impending Qunari invasion. Things have never been black or white in Dragon Age, whether you talking about the Chantry, the Qun, the Tevinter Magisters, etc. Bet ya the writers are reading this and grinning at their ability to get us to think a little outside the box about cultural differences.

I have to agree with this. If I was one of the writers who crafted this world that sparked so much intense conflicting opinions on morality and right and wrong I'd be grinning ear to ear.

[upsettingshorts]

Anarya wrote...
I'm saying if it's not a choice available to everyone, then you can't say everyone chooses their fate. I mean, I will never have the capabilities to try out for the Olympics. I guess if you wanted to argue semantics you could say I choose not to try for it, but it's beyond my abilities. I'm literally incapable of doing it, so realistically it's not a choice open to me.

A choice doesn't have to be made for it to exist. 

That's my point.  It may very well be semantics, but this is a philosophical debate.

[Anarya]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Also... to address a trend throughout this thread as well as throughout the majority of Western opinions.

Eastern Countries are not nearly as oppressive and controlling as Western Countries assume them to be. They just have completely different ways of thinking, different words and different definitions that cannot be translated and therefore are widely and almost entirely misinterpreted by our cultures.

And standing in the position of the Western Middle to Upper class and passing moral judgments down on people we will never be able to understand or relate to is arrogant at best and disgusting in most cases.

I feel comfortable making moral judgments about certain cases. In most cases I'm all for live and let live, but some things are just not okay.

[Anarya]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Anarya wrote...
I'm saying if it's not a choice available to everyone, then you can't say everyone chooses their fate. I mean, I will never have the capabilities to try out for the Olympics. I guess if you wanted to argue semantics you could say I choose not to try for it, but it's beyond my abilities. I'm literally incapable of doing it, so realistically it's not a choice open to me.

A choice doesn't have to be made for it to exist. 

That's my point.  It may very well be semantics, but this is a philosophical debate.

But I think that, from the perspective of a given individual, if the choice exists for other people but does not exist for the person in question, you can't say that person chose to not take it.

[Leonia]

Anarya wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Also... to address a trend throughout this thread as well as throughout the majority of Western opinions.

Eastern Countries are not nearly as oppressive and controlling as Western Countries assume them to be. They just have completely different ways of thinking, different words and different definitions that cannot be translated and therefore are widely and almost entirely misinterpreted by our cultures.

And standing in the position of the Western Middle to Upper class and passing moral judgments down on people we will never be able to understand or relate to is arrogant at best and disgusting in most cases.

I feel comfortable making moral judgments about certain cases. In most cases I'm all for live and let live, but some things are just not okay.

I am the same.

It will be interesting to see how things are presented to our characters in DA  2. When we don't have the full information or if the information is biased heavily, how will our characters react to it? Or will we attempt to meta-game and make our Hawke do/think as we do? Personally I am going to try and not meta-game. My morality is not the same as my characters and I think that opens the door to really experience the world in a new light.

Also this debate over choice reminds me a lot of the quandry presented to us in Awakening regarding the darkspawn being allowed or not allowed to change their fate.

Modifié par leonia42, 15 octobre 2010 - 07:32 .

[ShrinkingFish]

Also. Has anyone ever given a moments thought to the possibility that Qunari mages don't want to be "rescued"? That they don't need "rescuing"?



I would actually like to see Bioware implement a scenario where a self-righteous Hawke takes down a handler and breaks the chains of his mages to set them "free". And have them react as they would likely react.



With fear, misunderstanding, and sadness that their handler is dead. Perhaps even seeking revenge on Hawke for slaying their protector, their guardian, their master.



Perhaps they would even cut their own throats for fear that they, without their handlers, would in turn harm the people around them, the Qunari, or others.



To think that one could "liberate" a Qunari mage is arrogant and assumptive, someone too intent on how right and good they are to pay attention to the harm and destruction they cause.

[Meltemph]

If you take a universalization approach to discourse then there definitely would be a problem with certain actions.



(U) All affected can accept the consequences and the side effects that [the norm's] general observance can be anticipated to have for the satisfaction of everyone's interests, and the consequences are preferred to those of known alternative possibilities for regulation.



This can be understood as the deep structure of all acceptable moral norms, and should not be confused with the principle of discourse ethics (D), which presupposes that norms exist that satisfy the conditions specified by (U).





(D) Only those norms can claim to be valid that meet (or could meet) with the approval of all affected in their capacity as participants in a practical discourse.

[ShrinkingFish]

Anarya wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Anarya wrote...
I'm saying if it's not a choice available to everyone, then you can't say everyone chooses their fate. I mean, I will never have the capabilities to try out for the Olympics. I guess if you wanted to argue semantics you could say I choose not to try for it, but it's beyond my abilities. I'm literally incapable of doing it, so realistically it's not a choice open to me.

A choice doesn't have to be made for it to exist. 

That's my point.  It may very well be semantics, but this is a philosophical debate.

But I think that, from the perspective of a given individual, if the choice exists for other people but does not exist for the person in question, you can't say that person chose to not take it.

There is always a choice. It may not be a pretty one. It may not end well in either case. But you and everyone in this world always have a choice.

[Anarya]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Also. Has anyone ever given a moments thought to the possibility that Qunari mages don't want to be "rescued"? That they don't need "rescuing"?

I would actually like to see Bioware implement a scenario where a self-righteous Hawke takes down a handler and breaks the chains of his mages to set them "free". And have them react as they would likely react.

With fear, misunderstanding, and sadness that their handler is dead. Perhaps even seeking revenge on Hawke for slaying their protector, their guardian, their master.

Perhaps they would even cut their own throats for fear that they, without their handlers, would in turn harm the people around them, the Qunari, or others.

To think that one could "liberate" a Qunari mage is arrogant and assumptive, someone too intent on how right and good they are to pay attention to the harm and destruction they cause.

Okay, but a feral child would react the same way. Or those families that get locked in a room and molested for 20 years by the patriarch. It does not mean that what was done to them was okay or healthy, even if they develop Stockholm syndrome and don't want to be rescued.

[ShrinkingFish]

Meltemph wrote...

If you take a universalization approach to discourse then there definitely would be a problem with certain actions.

Good thing a universalized viewpoint is not applicable.

[upsettingshorts]

Anarya wrote...
But I think that, from the perspective of a given individual, if the choice exists for other people but does not exist for the person in question, you can't say that person chose to not take it.

This is where I say, "Why not?" and the debate returns to here.

[Anarya]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

There is always a choice. It may not be a pretty one. It may not end well in either case. But you and everyone in this world always have a choice.

That's a pretty soundbyte but it's just not true, realistically. Semantically, maybe.

[Meltemph]

Good thing a universalized viewpoint is not applicable.

How do you figure? If one believes these standards must be met then the only conclusion would be that the actions used by the leaders is in-fact wrong. So



If you look at it from a moral standpoint with these idea's in mind, then it would be quite easy to feel a sense of moral superiority.

[ShrinkingFish]

Anarya wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Also. Has anyone ever given a moments thought to the possibility that Qunari mages don't want to be "rescued"? That they don't need "rescuing"?

I would actually like to see Bioware implement a scenario where a self-righteous Hawke takes down a handler and breaks the chains of his mages to set them "free". And have them react as they would likely react.

With fear, misunderstanding, and sadness that their handler is dead. Perhaps even seeking revenge on Hawke for slaying their protector, their guardian, their master.

Perhaps they would even cut their own throats for fear that they, without their handlers, would in turn harm the people around them, the Qunari, or others.

To think that one could "liberate" a Qunari mage is arrogant and assumptive, someone too intent on how right and good they are to pay attention to the harm and destruction they cause.

Okay, but a feral child would react the same way. Or those families that get locked in a room and molested for 20 years by the patriarch. It does not mean that what was done to them was okay or healthy, even if they develop Stockholm syndrome and don't want to be rescued.

Are you suggesting the Qunari ritually molest their mages? Because there is certainly a line there that should not be and is not crossed and I am not willing to be dragged into an argument of extremes for the sake of extremes.

And I'm missing the point about the feral child. Is it morally unacceptable for a child to be feral? Or is it a state of being?

[Anarya]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Anarya wrote...
But I think that, from the perspective of a given individual, if the choice exists for other people but does not exist for the person in question, you can't say that person chose to not take it.

This is where I say, "Why not?" and the debate returns to here.

If you're comfortable blaming victims for what happens to them be my guest.