84 réponses à ce sujet

[horangi88]

After countless games with all six classes, I’ve come to the
conclusion that the biotic classes are one-trick ponies. I like to keep things
fresh, and I find myself going back to the tech classes for new builds and
playstyles. Even Soldiers offer more gameplay variety than biotics, since
the three different Collector ship weapons force you to radically alter your
battle tactics.

 

At the end of the day, Vanguards Charge and Adepts
Warp-splode. Both classes are fun and effective, but how many ways are there to
play either one? Or better yet, how many builds actually make either class play
differently (but still as effectively)? 
I’m looking for new Vanguard and Adept experiences, but they are hard to
find in the current power system.

 

For Vanguards there is only a CQC build of one sort or
another. Whenever you use your class power you are flung into point blank range
and there is no way around that. Vanguards just play pretty much the same way
no matter what the build. Adepts have a little more versatility since they can
be either be CQC or pure caster. However, in the end, warp bombs remain their
most used, and most potent, weapon. I think the biotic classes’ playstyles
depend too heavily on Charge and Warp-bombs, which lack the versatility and
synergetic potential of Cloak and Drone. 


 

Cloak and Drone make your guns and other powers more
effective by neutralizing cover and allowing you to snipe, CQC/melee, advance,
retreat and flank. The tech classes’ most powerful moves really just enhance
their other killing methods and lend themselves to many different styles of
play. Depending on the build, they can be effective snipers, casters, summoners
(mech and organic) or backstabbers.

 

Any thoughts on keeping the biotics fresh for Mass Effect 3?

 
Edit:

After a day of passionate biotics defense by fans and fanatics, the best solutions proposed are: a better power combo system and better power evolution chioces. I lean towards the more combos approach. The changes should apply all classes, and the combat system should stay pretty much the same. No new powers to manage, just new effects from combos. If you like the Adept as is, play in your current style and nothing will change. If you want more variety, set up the new combos.

A sigularity based combo scheme might look something like this:

Singularity+Warp = The normal warp'splosion.
Singularity+Throw = A trap that can be set on floors or walls that launches unarmored targets with deadly force.
Singularity+Shockwave = A detonation that sends out concentric rings of shockwaves.
Singularity+Pull = A vortex that starts at the target and moves towards you, pulling in unarmored targets in its path.
Singularity+Reave= A vorex that moves like a drone, distracting or draining energy from
target to target until the duration wears off.
Singularity+Slam = A trap that lifts a group of unarmored targets and slams them in place for a stun effect.
Singularity+Dominate = A confusion detonation like a flashbang that work on targets with defenses.
Singularity+Stasis = A stasis detonation like a cryo blast, holding unarmored targets in place and allowing them to take damage.

Something like this would add value to the minor powers like shockwave and add variety the Adepts arsenal. Any new ideas are appreciated and thanks to everyone for your input.

Edit:

Here is another solution that would keep the current combat system totally intact and just tweak a few powers. If you shorten Singularity's cooldown you can dump Pull. If you speed up Shockwave's casting time you can dump Throw. That would give you two free spots. Toss in Dominate and another biotic power and you have a very versatile Adept:

Warp
Singularity (w/ shorter CD Replces Pull)
Shockwave (w/ shorter casting time replaces Throw)
Dominate
Reave? Stasis? Some new Biotic power?
Biotic Mastery

That power set could be developed in to several sick builds.

Edit:

Practical stopgap solutions for ME2:

PC Modding:
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/103/index/2338026

XBOX Modding:
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/103/index/2277020



Peace

Modifié par horangi88, 17 octobre 2010 - 01:32 .

[Justicar]

Do NOT use Warp. Only use powers with short cooldowns (i.e. Throw, Pull, w/e)



It suddenly makes the Adept much more difficult. Surprise Surprise.

[horangi88]

I've done throw/pull/barrier and throw/pull/reave runs. Not so bad, but i find the biotic powers pretty similar to each other. You're basically just tossing things around. The techs offer more variety imho. Burn this, hack and electrocute that, freeze and smash the other. Plus cloak and drone allow for some fancy flanking and maneuvering

[ashwind]

horangi88 wrote...

After countless games with all six classes, I’ve come to the
conclusion that the biotic classes are one-trick ponies. I like to keep things
fresh, and I find myself going back to the tech classes for new builds and
playstyles. Even Soldiers offer more gameplay variety than biotics, since
the three different Collector ship weapons force you to radically alter your
battle tactics.

Personal preference maybe?
 

At the end of the day, Vanguards Charge and Adepts
Warp-splode.

Infiltrators Cloak, Engineer Overload/Drone, Sentinel Tech Armor... wats the difference?
 

For Vanguards there is only a CQC build of one sort or
another.

You can play a gimp adept that rely on your guns which is like a Soldier without AR but more biotic ability? Your bonus power further defines your character.

Whenever you use your class power you are flung into point blank range
and there is no way around that.

When you use Cloak... you become invisible? Anyway around that?

Cloak and Drone make your guns and other powers more
effective by neutralizing cover and allowing you to snipe, CQC/melee, advance,
retreat and flank.

How... is Charge, Singularity/Warplotion different? They too neutralize cover allowing you to gun them down, CQC, advance, retreat, flank, etc.

Biotic class is great in sending things flying in all directions 

[Bozorgmehr]

horangi88 wrote...

After countless games with all six classes, I’ve come to the conclusion that the biotic classes are one-trick ponies. Even Soldiers offer more gameplay variety than biotics, since the three different Collector ship weapons force you to radically alter your battle tactics.

Since when do biotic classes not receive bonus weapon / training on the CS? 'Battle tactics' don't change for biotic classes? I think having the GPS or Mattock to backup biotics makes quite a difference for any Adept.

For Vanguards there is only a CQC build of one sort or another. Whenever you use your class power you are flung into point blank range and there is no way around that. Vanguards just play pretty much the same way no matter what the build.

Vanguards with SR or AR training, using Viper or Mattock are potent long range fighters, they can use Shockwave to knock enemies out of cover, Pull them close and still have bonus power to boot.

Adepts have a little more versatility since they can be either be CQC or pure caster. However, in the end, warp bombs remain their most used, and most potent, weapon. I think the biotic classes’ playstyles depend too heavily on Charge and Warp-bombs, which lack the versatility and synergetic potential of Cloak and Drone.

Biotic classes lacking synergy? The only real combo in ME2 are warp explosions.

Infiltrators and Engineers depend on their unique powers like all the other classes, nothing special imho.

Cloak and Drone make your guns and other powers more effective by neutralizing cover and allowing you to snipe, CQC/melee, advance,retreat and flank. The tech classes’ most powerful moves really just enhance their other killing methods and lend themselves to many different styles of play. Depending on the build, they can be effective snipers, casters, summoners (mech and organic) or backstabbers.

You don't need Cloak or Drones to play the way you descibe - it can be done with all classes.

[Kronner]

Every class is a one trick pony when you think about it. You have the main power, passive and bunch of other stuff that is not that important. Your weapons may change and you can use this or that power (maxing 5 out of 7 talents), but in the end you are the one playing, so it is up to you how you play. Calling Adept one trick pony and saying Soldier plays differently based on weapon choice is just ridiculous. Soldier just spams AR..does not matter what weapon you have...all you do is shoot in slow-mo.

Using your 'logic' Vanguard that only uses SMG is different to shotgun Vanguard. They are the same. You Charge and shoot, that's Vanguard trademark. That is why there are 6 classes.

Modifié par Kronner, 14 octobre 2010 - 07:27 .

[Barhador]

Adept + barrier + shotgun/AR = heavily armoured adept that can be a front line warrior.

Adept + stasis = crowd control adept

Adept + Warp Ammo + SR = long range sniper adept



Be more creative.

[Forst1999]

I think there are enough ways to bring some change to the Adept . There aren't two classic different builds (like Revenant/Widow Soldier; Sniper/CQC Infiltrator; Caster/Assault Sentinel), but different ways to play exist. Barhador's suggestions look very good.

With the Vanguard i agree to some degree. It's charging, shotgun-to-the-face and melee. But nevertheless: THIS IS FUN! Vanguards don't need a different playstyle, they are a different playstyle.

[horangi88]

I think I'm being misunderstood. The biotics don't suck and I've played all of the adept and vanguard variants (no warp, Shotgun adept, AR vanguard etc.) you guys mentioned above. What I am saying is that fundamentally, to be most effective vanguards should charge and adepts should singularity a majority of the time. Sure, infiltrators cloak and engineers drone, but those powers don't force you to do a specific thing every time you use them. If I drone something I don't have to get into point blank range (charge) or spam another power (singularity) to be most effective. The tech classes seem to have more options post drone/cloak, and their class powers have better synergy with more bonus powers as far as I can see. These taken together allow for more gameplay options imho. All I'm saying is that some new biotic powers that add more playstyle choices would be nice in Mass Effect 3.



Glad to get the discussion rolling.



Lastly,



Kronner what are you talking about? The tempo and tactics of a soldier's game totally depend on the weapon choice. The number of enemies you can take out at one time, and the range in which you can take them out, is vastly different between the widow, claymore and revvy. You may spam AR with all of them, but the manner with which you do your killing is very different for all of them.



Peace

[Kronner]

horangi88 wrote...

Kronner what are you talking about? The tempo and tactics of a soldier's game totally depend on the weapon choice. The number of enemies you can take out at one time, and the range in which you can take them out, is vastly different between the widow, claymore and revvy. You may spam AR with all of them, but the manner with which you do your killing is very different for all of them.

Peace

In that case, Adept with SR is very different from Adept with AR or Shotgun. So what is the problem?

[Leeroi]

If you choose a class specific power such as Slam, you can turn the whole game into a warp bomb fest. The class is irrelevant, it's how you choose to play.

[horangi88]

Soldiers only have guns bro. An adept still has the same powers whether he is an AR adept or a Shotty adept. The powers still do the majority of the killing. Come on now, I just watched your Claymore soldier vid last night. You know I'm right on this one.



Respect

[Kronner]

horangi88 wrote...

Soldiers only have guns bro. An adept still has the same powers whether he is an AR adept or a Shotty adept. The powers still do the majority of the killing. Come on now, I just watched your Claymore soldier vid last night. You know I'm right on this one.

Respect

Well, obviously killing with different weapons feels different, but you are using the same main power that has the same effect in any situation And imho the basic gameplay is the same.

With the Adept, you can do Pull + Throw combos instead of Warp explosions quite efficiently  imho. It does not have to be Warp bombing all the time. The weapon choice has the same effect for both Soldier and Adept. Adept with Sniper Rifle is different than Shotgun Adept.

Modifié par Kronner, 14 octobre 2010 - 08:55 .

[creininger]

If you're looking for Vanguard ideas which add more to Charge:

Spec into Area Charge and Pull Field. Equip Cryo Ammo before charging. Destroying shields/barriers before charge would be ideal. Charge directly at a pack of enemies and send them flying in a single direction. Spray with SMG or AR if trained and freeze them all. Area Throw. Watch the blizzard. Particularly effective against Blood Packs and, to a lesser degree, Collectors. Using Inferno Ammo on Blood Packs would help, but it's not really necessary.

or

Spec into Heavy Charge and Champion and take sniper training. Advance Training into Warp Ammo, or use Jack as Squad Warp Ammo. If using Jack, take Barrier or Fortification, assuming neccesary loyalties. Charge an enemy and point-blank unload Viper into his friggin face. Pop Barrier/Fort and zoom onto another enemy. Once recharged, Charge again and melt more faces after the blissfully brief reload of snipers. Charging unshielded/barrier'd/armored enemies makes it most effective as defenseless enemies will be sent flying. Not recommended against Krogan unless you're REALLY confident you can avoid the Krogan headbutt. Tip: Point-blank charge and Flashbang (Kasumi) will negate a Krogan headbutt, even with armor

I have more fun and challenging playstyles that don't rely on shotguns or even Shockwave and Pull, if you want them, since that seems to be your biggest qualm about the class. Unfortunately - for you anyway, Vanguards must use Charge just as Sentinels must use Tech Armor, Soldiers must use Adrenaline Rush, Infiltrators must use Cloak, Adepts must use Singularity, and Engineers must use Drone to separate them from just any other moron with a gun.

Modifié par creininger, 14 octobre 2010 - 09:42 .

[Kronner]

Vanguard does not have Throw.

[horangi88]

I think we are talking about two different things here. A widow soldier will take out 75% of mooks from long range with a nice mellow tempo and taking little damage. A claymore soldier will take out 75% from point-blank range at a manic pace diving in and out of cover and in the red. AR is used for both, but monster guns are a soldier's real "powers". Those two different "powers" equate to different game experiences.

[SirValeq]

horangi88 wrote...

I think we are talking about two different things here. A widow soldier will take out 75% of mooks from long range with a nice mellow tempo and taking little damage. A claymore soldier will take out 75% from point-blank range at a manic pace diving in and out of cover and in the red. AR is used for both, but monster guns are a soldier's real "powers". Those two different "powers" equate to different game experiences.

Erm, no. It's not about the bonus weapons, it's only about the player. I can still play a sniper-soldier using Viper to kill everything or I kill everything with the Katana. Hell, I can even use the Predator the whole time and either snipe with it or score point-blank headshots, whatever suit my mood. The bonus weapons only make some encounters easier due to their power, but they don't force any specific playstyle on you. You force it on yourself.

[Kronner]

horangi88 wrote...

I think we are talking about two different things here. A widow soldier will take out 75% of mooks from long range with a nice mellow tempo and taking little damage. A claymore soldier will take out 75% from point-blank range at a manic pace diving in and out of cover and in the red. AR is used for both, but monster guns are a soldier's real "powers". Those two different "powers" equate to different game experiences.

Isn't that the same with Adept that spends a lot of time in cover, killing everyone from relative safety with biotic combos and uses squad for stripping defenses; and Adept that plays in your face style with Barrier bonus talent and aggressively uses Singularity, pull or throw? For example since LoTSB came out I completed Stasis Adept playthrough and it was quite different from other Adepts I played. IMHO there are plenty of options and you are the one that ultimately decides how are you gonna kill.

Modifié par Kronner, 14 octobre 2010 - 09:25 .

[JaegerBane]

horangi88 wrote...

After countless games with all six classes, I’ve come to the
conclusion that the biotic classes are one-trick ponies.

This largely depends on what your definition of a 'one trick pony' is.

If you mean that their powers are practically all physics related and hence it's too much Gordon Freeman schtick, then I would say that obviously, the classes aren't for you. Personally I really like being able to swat, punt and explode whoever I want across the map. I just did the Zaeed loyalty mission where my combat Adept wen mano y mano with the YMIR mech and he tore it apart in seconds using purely his biotics after he'd zapped the shields. I love that kind of gameplay.

If you mean that there's literally only one way of playing each class.... I'd agree that there's only really one way of playing the Vanguard (one potent way, anyway) but this just isn't true for Adepts and Sentinels.

[horangi88]

I'm talking about optimal performance given the weapons at hand. You can scope in and widow away point-blank or claymore from long range, but either option is not an optimal use of the weapons. Whatever, I guess it's all fun and games in the end. Nobody has answered my original question though. Any thoughts on new biotic powers to add more playstyle choices in Mass Effect 3?

[horangi88]

Kronner wrote...

horangi88 wrote...

I think we are talking about two different things here. A widow soldier will take out 75% of mooks from long range with a nice mellow tempo and taking little damage. A claymore soldier will take out 75% from point-blank range at a manic pace diving in and out of cover and in the red. AR is used for both, but monster guns are a soldier's real "powers". Those two different "powers" equate to different game experiences.

Isn't that the same with Adept that spends a lot of time in cover, killing everyone from relative safety with biotic combos and uses squad for stripping defenses; and Adept that plays in your face style with Barrier bonus talent and aggressively uses Singularity, pull or throw? For example since LoTSB came out I completed Stasis Adept playthrough and it was quite different from other Adepts I played. IMHO there are plenty of options and you are the one that ultimately decides how are you gonna kill.

True that, how you kill is up to you. Perhaps there is too much overlap in the biotic powers for my taste. Which brings me back to the original question: Any ideas for new biotic powers that would add more playstyle choices in Mass Effect 3?

[creininger]

Kronner wrote...

Vanguard does not have Throw.

Mibad   edited. i meant Pull Field, regardless. Technically, Throw Field would work too if you brought Samara or Thane. You could actually save points that way and spec into other things. I think the main point of any of this discussion is your playstyle relies as much on the player as the class and squadmates he chooses. After all, a bitoic-heavy squad works quite well together, as does an engineering-heavy squad and assault-heavy. That's why I don't use Miranda. Both Overload and Warp is nice, but hardly interesting. Roll an Engineer and play through with Mordin, Tali, and Legion Or Soldier with Zaeed and Grunt. Infiltrator with Kasumi and Garrus (sniper powah much?)

Don't forget your squaddies. They do affect your game unless you plan on soloing.

[Relix28]

I've always found the Soldier class to be the most boring one of them all. I've done the Revenant, Widow and Claymore playthroughs and the playstyle does change a lot depending what extra weapon training you choose, but at the end of the day you are spamming Adrenaline Rush and shoot stuff in slow-mo. And everything dies super fast, even on Insanity, leaving you with no real challenge. But that's just my opinion.

Vanguards on the other hand have to pick where and when to charge, because one wrong charge into a group of enemies usualy means a quick death on Insanity.
And also you don't have to just charge, point-blank rape an enemy, then charge another and point blank rape him. You can use charge to quickly jump to a prefered position, take out a couple of mooks there, then pull out your SMG/AR/SR and start flanking your enemies from mid or long range. Add pull, shockwave, Stasis/Reave/Slam into the mix and you have a ton of different options on how to despatch your foes. You just have to get creative, otherwise your Shep really does start to feel like a one-trick pony. But it is so with every class, not just with the biotic ones.

Modifié par Relix28, 15 octobre 2010 - 03:18 .

[horangi88]

JaegerBane wrote...

horangi88 wrote...

After countless games with all six classes, I’ve come to the
conclusion that the biotic classes are one-trick ponies.

This largely depends on what your definition of a 'one trick pony' is.

If you mean that their powers are practically all physics related and hence it's too much Gordon Freeman schtick, then I would say that obviously, the classes aren't for you. Personally I really like being able to swat, punt and explode whoever I want across the map. I just did the Zaeed loyalty mission where my combat Adept wen mano y mano with the YMIR mech and he tore it apart in seconds using purely his biotics after he'd zapped the shields. I love that kind of gameplay.

If you mean that there's literally only one way of playing each class.... I'd agree that there's only really one way of playing the Vanguard (one potent way, anyway) but this just isn't true for Adepts and Sentinels.

No beef with Sentinels, I prefer Assault Sentinels w/Shotguns (no warp), but casters are cool as well. Different vibes but I enjoy them both.

[cerberus1701]

One trick pony?



That's the soldier.



AR, shoot, AR, shoot. There's literally nothing else. No strategy. No risk.



How that class is more played than the others combined I don't get. All I can think of is the fact that people find the virtual "God mode" appealing.