350 réponses à ce sujet

[BLunted]

Absafraginlootly wrote...

You do realize that whether or not the extra charactor is only for preorders or in all copies to encourage buying new instead of second hand, Dragon Age 2 will be awesome or terrible regardless? I loved shale but I would honestly not have enjoyed dragon age origins any less for not having him in it (which if he hadn't come free in my normal copy of DA:O would have been the case), nor would his presence have made me enjoy the game if it had sucked.

It is one companion with associated companion quests, presumably the same average amount as those that are in game have, not an earth shattering plot vital gamplay feature. Deciding not to buy DA2 based on this annoyance instead of on the actual games merits seems abit extreme.

That's not the point, I tend to be a bit of a min/max'er, and this just feels like a scam to me. Also, this wasn't my only "annoyance".

Dave of Canada wrote...

Preorder by putting 5$ on it. Wait till March, read the reviews and if you like what you see then feel free to go grab it. If not, you move the 5$ to something else.

Good call. I might just do that.

[Maverick827]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Tsuga C wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Yeah thats a very good point, I never could understand that either. For me it was always either Sultry or the excited female rogue soundset. The rest were all just too "preachy" sounding for my taste. Course now we get no choice in that at all, which is really a bummer.

For me it was Sultry and Cold Killer[(?) At their throats!  Cut them down!] and...I can't remember the labels for the male voices.

It's the no-choice-at-all thing I absolutely despise.  If I could toggle a "silent protagonist with closed captioning" box that'd be acceptable, but I'm still highly irrate over so much of the zots being wasted on VO to satisfy the dullards out there with no imaginations.   *grrrrrrrr*   Damn the demands of this cinematic crap straight to Hell! 

Agreed

Oh no, the malcontents are pairing off!  Soon they'll multiply like angsty rabbits!

"Does anyone else feel this carrot is too orange?"

Modifié par Maverick827, 15 octobre 2010 - 09:48 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Maverick827 wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Tsuga C wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Yeah thats a very good point, I never could understand that either. For me it was always either Sultry or the excited female rogue soundset. The rest were all just too "preachy" sounding for my taste. Course now we get no choice in that at all, which is really a bummer.

For me it was Sultry and Cold Killer[(?) At their throats!  Cut them down!] and...I can't remember the labels for the male voices.

It's the no-choice-at-all thing I absolutely despise.  If I could toggle a "silent protagonist with closed captioning" box that'd be acceptable, but I'm still highly irrate over so much of the zots being wasted on VO to satisfy the dullards out there with no imaginations.   *grrrrrrrr*   Damn the demands of this cinematic crap straight to Hell! 

Agreed

Oh no, the malcontents are pairing off!  Soon they'll multiply like angsty rabbits!

"Does anyone else feel this carrot is too orange?"

Yeah sorry if a voiced protagonist and a dialog wheel with paraphrased choices doesn't get me all hot and bothered. Guess I have to turn in my loyal bioware fan card now because I'm not in love with a particular design decision.

Nor am I in love with the idea of withholding content just to try and boost presales. This isn't the same situation as shale where the delay of the PC version to coincide with the console releases allowed them to finish Shale and have her ready for day 1.  This is creating additional content 5 months before release to try and boost presales. 

EA may decide to make it their "project 10 dollar" content closer to release, but until that happens, saying this is the same as shale, and calling those who don't think its the greatest idea since sliced bread some sort of entitlement ****s is so far off the mark its not even funny.

[Maverick827]

Some day you'll learn that how you say something is often more telling than what you've said in the first place. Your rhetoric (or, in this specific case, the rhetoric of those whom you agree with) is too strong for you to pull the "I'm merely expressing my opinion" card. Tone the angst down and maybe your views will be treated with respect.

[Merced256]

Maverick827 wrote...

Some day you'll learn that how you say something is often more telling than what you've said in the first place. Your rhetoric (or, in this specific case, the rhetoric of those whom you agree with) is too strong for you to pull the "I'm merely expressing my opinion" card. Tone the angst down and maybe your views will be treated with respect.

Which is hilarious given how you've repeatedly chosen to present yourself.

[Maverick827]

Merced256 wrote...

Which is hilarious given how you've repeatedly chosen to present yourself.

With a rapier wit? 

The way I present myself is not at all contradictory to the messages I advocate.  If he wants us to view his opinions as rational and valid, then he cannot use irrational rhetoric and invalid logic.  It's actually quite simple.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Maverick827 wrote...

Some day you'll learn that how you say something is often more telling than what you've said in the first place. Your rhetoric (or, in this specific case, the rhetoric of those whom you agree with) is too strong for you to pull the "I'm merely expressing my opinion" card. Tone the angst down and maybe your views will be treated with respect.

Define too strong? that I strongly dislike a design decision and expressed that, is that what you would consider too strong? Not everyone loves every design decision they're making with DA2, and unless this extra content ends up being EA's 10 dollar plan, it'll be just another design decision to add to the list of bad ideas imo.  Its funny though that you try and make it sound like those who share my opinion are the only ones that ever bring the snark though.

[Dave of Canada]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Its funny though that you try and make it sound like those who share my opinion are the only ones that ever bring the snark though.

Calling everybody stupid does tend to have that effect.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Dave of Canada wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Its funny though that you try and make it sound like those who share my opinion are the only ones that ever bring the snark though.

Calling everybody stupid does tend to have that effect.

Speaking of one of your snarky buds, Hiya Dave!

[Sir JK]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Yeah sorry if a voiced protagonist and a dialog wheel with paraphrased choices doesn't get me all hot and bothered. Guess I have to turn in my loyal bioware fan card now because I'm not in love with a particular design decision.

Nor am I in love with the idea of withholding content just to try and boost presales. This isn't the same situation as shale where the delay of the PC version to coincide with the console releases allowed them to finish Shale and have her ready for day 1.  This is creating additional content 5 months before release to try and boost presales. 

EA may decide to make it their "project 10 dollar" content closer to release, but until that happens, saying this is the same as shale, and calling those who don't think its the greatest idea since sliced bread some sort of entitlement ****s is so far off the mark its not even funny.

The DLC team is a separate team (it might include some of the same people though) with separate budget and separate timetables. It is not the same project as Dragon Age 2 and could for all intents and purposes be consider a micro-expansion pack. This allows them to focus on other stuff than the main game, develop things parallel to the main game and perhaps salvage stuff that was cut for whatever reason.

Speculation: The main game is probably almost finished by now, John Epler said they prefered having 2-3 months of testing. And since reviewers will need review-copies early, that probably means that the game is ready to be played by february. Meaning content lock in November-December, half a month to one and a half months from now. The DLC team have a separate timetable and need not be concerned with that deadline and thus, for all we know, the bonus character might be far from finished (but since it is so much less content to make and test). 6 months is not so much time as it may seem.

You're of course welcome to have an opinion on the matter, but it seems many of the less convinced in DA2 have a tendency to cry wolf and assume that things are for the worse and that they are being intentionally cheated. In the case of this DLC this is not the case because: 1) It's not made as part of the DA2 project and thus is an extra available to those willing to accept it. 2) It is freely available for any who preorder, which by the way you have 4 months to decide upon (so there is still plen ty of time to make up your mind. 3) There is no contract signed upon a preorder that you have to buy the game, if you decide that the game+bonus is not worth it's price it can be cancelled. You won't get the bonus included in the price no, but that is a choice of your making (in the sense that they are offering it, but it's up to you to accept or not).

But you are right, you should not be belittled for not being convinced of the idea.

[Merced256]

Dave of Canada wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Its funny though that you try and make it sound like those who share my opinion are the only ones that ever bring the snark though.

Calling everybody stupid does tend to have that effect.

So the BDF has never cast the first stone? :innocent:

Be real, both sides say it and imply it. Hell, if the BDF didn't then i often would have nothing to post about.

[Dave of Canada]

Merced256 wrote...
So the BDF has never cast the first stone? :innocent:

When I can't go into any thread (not even saying anything involving you two) without Sarah or you saying "OH LOOK BDF" or "OH LOOK DAVE IS HERE", it's kind of hard to throw the first stone. No?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 16 octobre 2010 - 06:58 .

[upsettingshorts]

Merced256 wrote...
So the BDF has never cast the first stone? [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angel.png[/smilie]

Be real, both sides say it and imply it. Hell, if the BDF didn't then i often would have nothing to post about.

Exhibit A, strong opinion: This design decision is flawed because of A, B, and C.
Exhibit B, jerk: This design decision is stupid and could only be embraced by idiots

Sure, plenty of people break out the snark but it's on a case by case basis. Some people choose to lead off with it, and unapologetically make it a consistent fixture of their metaphorical argument batting order.

I haven't noticed any particular pattern on which so-called "side" of the debate uses it more, I tend to remember specific people not some vague conception of teams.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 16 octobre 2010 - 07:04 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Merced256 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Its funny though that you try and make it sound like those who share my opinion are the only ones that ever bring the snark though.

Calling everybody stupid does tend to have that effect.

So the BDF has never cast the first stone? :innocent:

Be real, both sides say it and imply it. Hell, if the BDF didn't then i often would have nothing to post about.

Heck the phrase wouldn't have been even coined if it didn't happen.

[Dave of Canada]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Heck the phrase wouldn't have been even coined if it didn't happen.

Isn't "BDF" a label you like putting on people that disagree with you? I have my own disagreements with DA2, I voice them but apparently you like calling me a blind fanboy.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 16 octobre 2010 - 07:02 .

[upsettingshorts]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Isn't "BDF" a label you like putting on people that disagree with you? I have my own disagreements with DA2, I voice them but apparently you like calling me a blind fanboy.

I could derail a thread again with my whole "ideological labels" spiel, but that would probably anger the reactionaries.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 16 octobre 2010 - 07:03 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Sir JK wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Yeah sorry if a voiced protagonist and a dialog wheel with paraphrased choices doesn't get me all hot and bothered. Guess I have to turn in my loyal bioware fan card now because I'm not in love with a particular design decision.

Nor am I in love with the idea of withholding content just to try and boost presales. This isn't the same situation as shale where the delay of the PC version to coincide with the console releases allowed them to finish Shale and have her ready for day 1.  This is creating additional content 5 months before release to try and boost presales. 

EA may decide to make it their "project 10 dollar" content closer to release, but until that happens, saying this is the same as shale, and calling those who don't think its the greatest idea since sliced bread some sort of entitlement ****s is so far off the mark its not even funny.

The DLC team is a separate team (it might include some of the same people though) with separate budget and separate timetables. It is not the same project as Dragon Age 2 and could for all intents and purposes be consider a micro-expansion pack. This allows them to focus on other stuff than the main game, develop things parallel to the main game and perhaps salvage stuff that was cut for whatever reason.

Speculation: The main game is probably almost finished by now, John Epler said they prefered having 2-3 months of testing. And since reviewers will need review-copies early, that probably means that the game is ready to be played by february. Meaning content lock in November-December, half a month to one and a half months from now. The DLC team have a separate timetable and need not be concerned with that deadline and thus, for all we know, the bonus character might be far from finished (but since it is so much less content to make and test). 6 months is not so much time as it may seem.

You're of course welcome to have an opinion on the matter, but it seems many of the less convinced in DA2 have a tendency to cry wolf and assume that things are for the worse and that they are being intentionally cheated. In the case of this DLC this is not the case because: 1) It's not made as part of the DA2 project and thus is an extra available to those willing to accept it. 2) It is freely available for any who preorder, which by the way you have 4 months to decide upon (so there is still plen ty of time to make up your mind. 3) There is no contract signed upon a preorder that you have to buy the game, if you decide that the game+bonus is not worth it's price it can be cancelled. You won't get the bonus included in the price no, but that is a choice of your making (in the sense that they are offering it, but it's up to you to accept or not).

But you are right, you should not be belittled for not being convinced of the idea.

Well thought out post, Hopefully that is actually the case, I could understand the reasoning behind it a tad better. I think what really bothers me about it, and this isn't limited to Bioware by any means at all, is this seems to be the trend in the industry now of having DLC ready to go either at release, or shortly after. Most of it paid more often than not.

When console game prices went up to 60 dollars, we weren't getting any extra content, we were covering the publisher fee to MS/Sony. Now that some PC games are making that jump in price as well, well the whole thing just kinda sours me on where the industry is headed.

So the whole idea of nickle and diming people for content that prolly could have been on the disc, isn't something I think should be encouraged, because publishers will just continue to push that line of what the consumers will deem acceptable.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Dave of Canada wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Heck the phrase wouldn't have been even coined if it didn't happen.

Isn't "BDF" a label you like putting on people that disagree with you? I have my own disagreements with DA2, I voice them but apparently you like calling me a blind fanboy.

Surprisingly no, theres like 5 people total I'd consider BDF to be honest with you, and plenty others who disagree with me no doubt.

[AlanC9]

Dave's correct. Sarah made that phrase up herself. I don't know why she couldn't bring herself to say "I wouldn't have coined the phrase if it didn't happen." False modesty? Embarrassment?

Edit: hey, Sarah -- I'm in the BDF, right?

Modifié par AlanC9, 16 octobre 2010 - 07:12 .

[Merced256]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Merced256 wrote...
So the BDF has never cast the first stone? [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angel.png[/smilie]

Be real, both sides say it and imply it. Hell, if the BDF didn't then i often would have nothing to post about.

Exhibit A, strong opinion: This design decision is flawed because of A, B, and C.
Exhibit B, jerk: This design decision is stupid and could only be embraced by idiots

Sure, plenty of people break out the snark but it's on a case by case basis. Some people choose to lead off with it, and unapologetically make it a consistent fixture of their metaphorical argument batting order.

I haven't noticed any particular pattern on which so-called "side" of the debate uses it more, I tend to remember specific people not some vague conception of teams.

I agree completely. I'm generally not one to categorize people for any other reason than that i myself have been labeled or strictly for convenience. Hell to be honest the only person i ever really considered to be in the BDF was brynn, who has been much more moderate lately <3. As it is, i certainly have no personal quarrel or dislike for anyone on this board save one particularly bioware apologist who uses a certain solarian avatar and always presents his view as the view. Everyone else is practically golden in my book.

Modifié par Merced256, 16 octobre 2010 - 07:13 .

[upsettingshorts]

AlanC9 wrote...

Dave's correct. Sarah made that phrase up herself. I don't know why she couldn't bring herself to say "I wouldn't have coined the phrase if it didn't happen." False modesty? Embarrassment?

Edit: hey, Sarah -- I'm in the BDF, right?

It's a common propaganda trick.  You demonize the opposition through simplistic and misleading labels, thereby attempting to force them to debate you on their terms.  Such as "You're just a Bioware shill, you would say that."  Which is just a more advanced form of ad hominem then "No U" but it's still basically the same in terms of motivation and effect.  It attempts to fundamentally alter the focus of the argument, and often succeeds in doing so.  Inventing a group - such as "BDF" which doesn't exist and doesn't claim to - takes such labeling a step further by creating a group with a vague definition through which Sarah can link people at will and without consequence in attempts to pidgeonhole and discredit them.

Modern politicians use a similar ploy all the time to re-label issues and opponents alike.  It's especially difficult to combat if they're consistent in pushing it as part of their agenda because the only way to react is to ignore it, which requires patience and consistency. 

Merced256 wrote...

I agree completely. I'm generally not one to categorize people for any other reason than that i myself have been
labeled or strictly for convenience.

My attempts to categorize people have attempted, though they haven't been entirely successful, to be formed on the basis of concensus and my methodology is not only open, but open to interpretation - such as the reactionary/conservative/liberal/radical divergence of opinions regarding the development of DA:2.  The labels don't intend to prejudice the reader, only help inform the argument.  In that the discussions on these forums are not some kind of undeclared war between "fanboys" and "haters" but more or less typical of debate over gaming preferences within a marketplace of ideas.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 16 octobre 2010 - 07:24 .

[Sir JK]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Well thought out post, Hopefully that is actually the case, I could understand the reasoning behind it a tad better. I think what really bothers me about it, and this isn't limited to Bioware by any means at all, is this seems to be the trend in the industry now of having DLC ready to go either at release, or shortly after. Most of it paid more often than not.

Yes, if I may hazard a guess it's that all DLC are made by DLC teams these days. Since DLC can be produced quicker than the main game they will on occasion be available at release but they were probably finished after content lock, probably after final polishing too. This since they don't actually don't have to be in the preview versions (and thus afford to put their deadline later)

When console game prices went up to 60 dollars, we weren't getting any extra content, we were covering the publisher fee to MS/Sony. Now that some PC games are making that jump in price as well, well the whole thing just kinda sours me on where the industry is headed.

This is very reasonable, and I agree. It is a pity that prices are getting higher. Why that is beats me... probably due to increasing production costs.

So the whole idea of nickle and diming people for content that prolly could have been on the disc, isn't something I think should be encouraged, because publishers will just continue to push that line of what the consumers will deem acceptable.

Remember, made by a separate team using a separate budget. Putting it on the disk will both make the main game more expensive and delay it (which in turn makes it even more expensive). That you want more content on the disk I can understand perfectly, but at some point the game need to be finished (with DLC as a possibility to add to it later).
DLC is probably best considered to me, as I said, many small micro-expansion packs. Bonus content for your game if you want it. Kind of like various upgrades like leather seats to one's car?

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

AlanC9 wrote...

Dave's correct. Sarah made that phrase up herself. I don't know why she couldn't bring herself to say "I wouldn't have coined the phrase if it didn't happen." False modesty? Embarrassment?

Edit: hey, Sarah -- I'm in the BDF, right?

What do you guys got radar? Someone said BDF! Quick assemble to said thread!

[Daerog]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
What do you guys got radar? Someone said BDF! Quick assemble to said thread!

BioWare Defense Force... AAAASSSSSSSSEEEMMMMMBBBLLLLLLLLEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!

Heh, I just picture an early 90s cartoon that is about a team of heroes. All corny with a moral message at the end.

Sounds awesome.

I'm already a part of the Loyalists in the Circle of Magi, maybe I can get a dual membership card to include the BDF as well.

[upsettingshorts]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...
maybe I can get a dual membership card to include the BDF as well.

Hmmm... acknowledging the label and taking ownership of it is an effective way of diluting its negative effects.

Maybe we should form a group, and define it the way we want - not Sarah.