350 réponses à ce sujet

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Abandonwha? I'm talking the industy as a whole here, not just Bioware, god god man so petty! So you're quite alright with the idea of stripping content out prerelease just to sell it later on as paid DLC? Because if you honestly think that isn't going on with just about every major release these days, you're pretty nieve.

I wouldn't say I'm naive, just unwilling to paint an entire industry's worth of games and an infinite number of examples of DLC with the same brush.  I am happy to get content.  As long as the price for the content is reasonable, I will be pleased and purchase it without hesitation.

But I'm also unwilling to derail the thread about the speculation surrounding the additional party member.  It is not and will not be some kind of indictment of DLC, nor ought it be used as such.  

No it shouldn't, but its along the same vein. And its most likely not really even "new" content to begin with to entice you into ponying up 50 bucks before hand. But whatever. I find it kind of a shady marketing tactic but its obviously not going to change at this point since EA does it on just about every title they ship now, even stripping out the online component of their sports titles from what I've read unless you buy new.

[nightcobra]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Paid DLC will be the death of the industry just wait and see due to the greed behind it.

And I'll believe that when I see it.

The problem with DLC is and always will be the cost-benefit analysis, on both ends.  Speaking as a consumer, I'll buy as much Lair of the Shadow Broker as developers are willing to throw at me.  But I still haven't bought Witch Hunt.  Quality is important, but the concept isn't nearly as abhorrent as you make it out to be - you just like to say so because it reinforces your belief that EA and/or Bioware are abandoning you.

Abandonwha? I'm talking the industy as a whole here, not just Bioware, god god man so petty! So you're quite alright with the idea of stripping content out prerelease just to sell it later on as paid DLC? Because if you honestly think that isn't going on with just about every major release these days, you're pretty nieve.

look who's talking, seriously stop with the condescending talk already. you have your opinions, i'm fine with that. just present them in a polite manner. and Upsettingshorts you were fine until that last statement where you're pratically calling him/her out. now will you have a decent discussion or do i have to separate you two?

[upsettingshorts]

nightcobra8928 wrote...
look who's talking, seriously stop with the condescending talk already. you have your opinions, i'm fine with that. just present them in a polite manner. and Upsettingshorts you were fine until that last statement where you're pratically calling him/her out. now will you have a decent discussion or do i have to separate you two?

Don't mind me, I only do that with Sarah.  I tried blocking her to remove the temptation but that must only work for PM's or something.

Oh, right.  Off-topic and all that, last word is hers - I can't be bothered.  Hopefully that'll help put the thread back on topic.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 octobre 2010 - 08:54 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...
look who's talking, seriously stop with the condescending talk already. you have your opinions, i'm fine with that. just present them in a polite manner. and Upsettingshorts you were fine until that last statement where you're pratically calling him/her out. now will you have a decent discussion or do i have to separate you two?

Don't mind me, I only do that with Sarah.  I tried blocking her to remove the temptation but that must only work for PM's or something.

Eh I'm not the only one you do that with but I digress.

[Felfenix]

I like how the topic is now about who UpsettingShorts "does it with".

Modifié par Felfenix, 15 octobre 2010 - 10:20 .

[upsettingshorts]

Felfenix wrote...

I like how the topic is now about who UpsettingShorts "does it with".

Not nearly enough people... I mean, huh? 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 octobre 2010 - 10:22 .

[Leonia]

How about those gingerbread men and women.. I wonder if any of them are Qunari.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Felfenix wrote...

I like how the topic is now about who UpsettingShorts "does it with".

AngryPants gets around so I've heard.

[Anarya]

I think we might get a Tal'Vashoth warrior. There's definitely a Qunari in that one concept art of the Deep Roads.

[Felfenix]

That family Sten killed? It was a gingerbread family. He ate every last one of them.

[upsettingshorts]

Felfenix wrote...

That family Sten killed? It was a gingerbread family. He ate every last one of them.

They were delicious. 

[nightcobra]

Anarya wrote...

I think we might get a Tal'Vashoth warrior. There's definitely a Qunari in that one concept art of the Deep Roads.

and wielding something akin to a staff, i'm thinking....what about if youngling qunari in his/her thirteens/fourteens doesn't agree with the qun and runs away with other qunari becoming tal'vashoth. and after he/she is free this qunari manifests magic for the first time in his/her life.

[Anarya]

Well then I guess I should lock myself in a cage. Legions fall every Christmas in my house.

@nightcobra that'd be interesting

Modifié par Anarya, 15 octobre 2010 - 11:20 .

[nightcobra]

Anarya wrote...

Well then I guess I should lock myself in a cage. Legions fall every Christmas in my house.

@nightcobra that'd be interesting

it would make for some interesting quests and plot, considering his/her viewpoint on how qunari mages are treated being one himself/herself.

[the_one_54321]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
I wouldn't say I'm naive

Upsettingshorts wrote...
just unwilling to paint an entire industry's worth of games and an infinite number of examples of DLC with the same brush.

To me these statements are contradictory. Every singal micro transaction structured DLC that has been offered up by the industry has been a rip-off. BioWare has offered up some of the very best, and still their finest examples are things like Leliana's Song and Witch Hunt. And of those, my view is that Leliana's Song was borderline at being worth it and Witch's Hunt was an shocking example of horrible false advertising. Most other inustry examples are things like furnature in the Sims.

I don't see this so much as derailing the topic because it's specifically about what we're getting with a preorder of the game. As I pointed out pages ago, this preorder is advertised to get you a free upgrade that will then come with this extra playable character. Presumably that means that if you don't preorder then later on you'll have to pay extra to get this same content. And this is content that is available at the release of the game. Did they not learn any lessons at all from when the same thing about Shale pissed off so many people, prompting them to include her for free?

[upsettingshorts]

the_one_54321 wrote...
To me these statements are contradictory.

I disagree.  Glad we got nowhere with that one.

the_one_54321 wrote...
Every singal micro transaction structured DLC that has been offered up by the industry has been a rip-off. BioWare has offered up some of the very best, and still their finest examples are things like Leliana's Song and Witch Hunt. And of those, my view is that Leliana's Song was borderline at being worth it and Witch's Hunt was an shocking example of horrible false advertising. Most other inustry examples are things like furnature in the Sims.

Leliana's Song bored me, I didn't buy Witch Hunt due to bad reviews, and thought Lair of the Shadow Broker and even Overlord  were worth every cent and therefore not a rip-off. 

If there can be such a distinct difference - in my opinion of course - between the cost/benefit ratio of purchasing DLC made by the same company it is not naive to extend that belief in the inconsistency (as opposed to the whole idea of DLC being bad, that is) of the concept to other developers. 

See? Not contradictory.  

Edit: Every one of the DLC expansions for Fallout 3 were also exceptionally well done.  A further example of why the concept doesn't belong in the trash bin, at least it's not as much of a slam dunk case as people like to claim it is.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 octobre 2010 - 03:37 .

[Vicious]

I hope that they start copying Mass Effect 2 and it's amazing DLC quests.



Vs. DA:O and it's relatively garbage DLC quests.

[Skellimancer]

DLC already?



Tsk Tsk.

[John Epler]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Felfenix wrote...

My only issue with these sorts of things is that they purposely withhold content just to charge more...

This, makes one wonder how many quests are going to be cut out of the game just to be readded as paid DLC later on. Gotta love the new EA Bioware.  

Except this isn't what we're doing. This isn't something we've ever done, at any point. I know many people are convinced that whenever we mention any kind of DLC that's released near the on-disc product that it's stuff we just tore out of the main game to sell for an extra price, but that's not true. DLC of any sort is budgeted and worked on in a completely separate fashion from the main game. For the most part, we need to be completely locked down content-wise a good two or three months in advance. More is preferable, of course, but there's a minimum of at least a month and a half.

Anything and everything that's worked on as PRC is both budgeted and worked on completely separately from the main game. Sometimes, the timelines intersect a bit - writers tend to be done with the game a little sooner than anyone else, so they've got some downtime to write dialogue and such. But we've never gone in and stripped something from the main game just so we could sell it after the fact. As it is, most of our projects end up in a lot of 14 hour days and long weekends at the office just so we can finish what you're actually getting on the disc. Nevermind extra content for us to cut so we can later repackage it and resell it. That just doesn't happen.

Of course, I work for the company, so I'm certain some people wouldn't believe me if I told them rain is wet. That's their prerogative! For the rest, though, I figured I'd chime in and dispel some of the fears.

[Nerevar-as]

JohnEpler wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Felfenix wrote...

My only issue with these sorts of things is that they purposely withhold content just to charge more...

This, makes one wonder how many quests are going to be cut out of the game just to be readded as paid DLC later on. Gotta love the new EA Bioware.  

Except this isn't what we're doing. This isn't something we've ever done, at any point. I know many people are convinced that whenever we mention any kind of DLC that's released near the on-disc product that it's stuff we just tore out of the main game to sell for an extra price, but that's not true. DLC of any sort is budgeted and worked on in a completely separate fashion from the main game. For the most part, we need to be completely locked down content-wise a good two or three months in advance. More is preferable, of course, but there's a minimum of at least a month and a half.

Anything and everything that's worked on as PRC is both budgeted and worked on completely separately from the main game. Sometimes, the timelines intersect a bit - writers tend to be done with the game a little sooner than anyone else, so they've got some downtime to write dialogue and such. But we've never gone in and stripped something from the main game just so we could sell it after the fact. As it is, most of our projects end up in a lot of 14 hour days and long weekends at the office just so we can finish what you're actually getting on the disc. Nevermind extra content for us to cut so we can later repackage it and resell it. That just doesn't happen.

Of course, I work for the company, so I'm certain some people wouldn't believe me if I told them rain is wet. That's their prerogative! For the rest, though, I figured I'd chime in and dispel some of the fears.

So the extra party character will be a Zaeed/Kasumi and not a Shale.

[Kyenne]

Nerevar-as wrote...

So the extra party character will be a Zaeed/Kasumi and not a Shale.

Shale wasn't cut in order to be made into DLC, Shale was cut first and then managed to be salvaged a while later as DLC. I swear people on these forums could make just about anything sound like a portent of doom, I really do.

[Esbatty]

JohnEpler wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Felfenix wrote...

My only issue with these sorts of things is that they purposely withhold content just to charge more...

This, makes one wonder how many quests are going to be cut out of the game just to be readded as paid DLC later on. Gotta love the new EA Bioware.  

Except this isn't what we're doing. This isn't something we've ever done, at any point. I know many people are convinced that whenever we mention any kind of DLC that's released near the on-disc product that it's stuff we just tore out of the main game to sell for an extra price, but that's not true. DLC of any sort is budgeted and worked on in a completely separate fashion from the main game. For the most part, we need to be completely locked down content-wise a good two or three months in advance. More is preferable, of course, but there's a minimum of at least a month and a half.

Anything and everything that's worked on as PRC is both budgeted and worked on completely separately from the main game. Sometimes, the timelines intersect a bit - writers tend to be done with the game a little sooner than anyone else, so they've got some downtime to write dialogue and such. But we've never gone in and stripped something from the main game just so we could sell it after the fact. As it is, most of our projects end up in a lot of 14 hour days and long weekends at the office just so we can finish what you're actually getting on the disc. Nevermind extra content for us to cut so we can later repackage it and resell it. That just doesn't happen.

Of course, I work for the company, so I'm certain some people wouldn't believe me if I told them rain is wet. That's their prerogative! For the rest, though, I figured I'd chime in and dispel some of the fears.

I appreciate the response, and fully understand. Sometimes people just think they got designers, writers, and coders in crates typing away at the keyboards while big pocketed money men bark orders at ya'll that they think will make them more money.

Money Man #1: Bigger Jugs!
Designer: Yessir!
Money Man #2: Put two more barrels on that gun! My lazy punk kid loved that crap in the 90's. Now he just kisses his roommate when he thinks I'm not lookin' when I go over with my wife for dinner.
Designer: Uhh... okay, sir.
Money Man #1: I'm talkin' like casabah melons, ya iPod swillin' hippie!
Designer: But sir, I'm running low on Ramen... my vision is blurring.
Money Man #2: I'm tellin' ya they'll pay an extra 10 bucks for downloadable jiggle physics like that volleyball game from that fightin' game with the bikinis and no actual fighting.
Designer: Yessir.... I pray for death.

[upsettingshorts]

Nerevar-as wrote...
So the extra party character will be a Zaeed/Kasumi and not a Shale.

If I didn't enjoy it so much I'd probably hate myself at this point but:

Confirmation bias.

[Maugrim]

JohnEpler wrote...

But we've never gone in and stripped something from the main game just so we could sell it after the fact.

Just thought this needed to feature a little more prominently, since it's at the heart of many complaint threads.

JohnEpler wrote...

Of course, I work for the company, so I'm certain some people wouldn't believe me if I told them rain is wet. That's their prerogative! For the rest, though, I figured I'd chime in and dispel some of the fears.

Oh yeah the conspiracy theorists...somehow I always forget facts and logic don't work on them

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 15 octobre 2010 - 04:04 .

[John Epler]

Esbatty wrote...

I appreciate the response, and fully understand. Sometimes people just think they got designers, writers, and coders in crates typing away at the keyboards while big pocketed money men bark orders at ya'll that they think will make them more money.

Money Man #1: Bigger Jugs!
Designer: Yessir!
Money Man #2: Put two more barrels on that gun! My lazy punk kid loved that crap in the 90's. Now he just kisses his roommate when he thinks I'm not lookin' when I go over with my wife for dinner.
Designer: Uhh... okay, sir.
Money Man #1: I'm talkin' like casabah melons, ya iPod swillin' hippie!
Designer: But sir, I'm running low on Ramen... my vision is blurring.
Money Man #2: I'm tellin' ya they'll pay an extra 10 bucks for downloadable jiggle physics like that volleyball game from that fightin' game with the bikinis and no actual fighting.
Designer: Yessir.... I pray for death.

I don't really blame people for believing the worst, to be honest. Game development isn't a very transparent process - the idea that we can be adding content until the day before a game hits the shelves is a fairly pervasive one, and that's partially because the average gamer doesn't know about things like certification times, content lockdown, all that wonderful stuff.

If I didn't work for a developer, I don't know if I'd necessarily understand all that myself. I like to think I'd give people the benefit of the doubt - but who knows? I might be one of the folks readying the pitchforks and torches as soon as news like this came out. And that's partially on the shoulders of the developers - we need to be a little more transparent about how the process works. Because it's very, very easy to see 'new content available at or close to launch' and immediately assume 'they cut it to sell it for more money!' It's not true (at least not for BioWare), and never has been (nor, I imagine, never will be) true, but it's certainly the easiest conclusion to jump to.