136 réponses à ce sujet

[Exile Isan]

DPSSOC wrote...
Ok I want you to look very carefully at the wording of that statement.  "Liberate the factory" does not mean "save the workers" it means regain control of the physical structure (factory) from the Blue Suns.  It's probably better for the company in question that their workers survive (don't have to hire and train new monkies), but it is not a primary mission directive.  By killing Vido you ensure that the entire Blue Suns presence is eliminated from the base thus ensuring the completion of the mission (Factory Liberated, Workers Dead).

And a burned down factory is better for Eldfell-Ashland how? Not to mention to my Shepard "liberate" does mean saving the workers because they Blue Suns were using them for slave labor and Zaeed also mentions that the company wanted that dealt with, too. My Shepard hates slavers (Colonist) and has a soft spot for those that they enslave. I also explained, in my earlier post, why my Shepard wouldn't help Zaeed in his quest for revenge. Roleplaying! What a novel concept.

[wizardryforever]

If you let the workers die, the refinery burns down.  Completely.  Even if it didn't say it in the mission report, it makes perfect sense.  Other than the Blue Suns (who have been killed), Shepard is the only one in the area who can put out the fire, if you don't it burns everything down.  It certainly won't stop on its own.

For something to be liberated, it needs to still be whole (or alive if it's a person), and returned to its original owner (or freed if its a person).  If its destroyed, it can't be returned.  So a destroyed refinery is not liberated, no matter how you look at it.  And besides, Eldfell-Ashland definitely wants its refinery back much more than it wants some merc boss dead.  And that really is all Vido was.  He wasn't a terrorist per-se, nor is he some evil overlord that needs to be killed no matter the cost.  Killing him would be great, but saving lives is more important than taking them.  And really, letting people die because Vido might do something in the future just seems heartless, especially when we have no guarantee that he even makes it off planet if you save the workers (metagame).

[ResidentNoob]

Schneidend wrote...

You mean Zaeed? He's the one who set the place on fire.

That he was. Zaeed set the place on fire in an effort to kill Vido. He's been chasing him for 20 years; I don't blame him for trying to kill Vido on sight. I doubt Zaeed knew that destroying the pipes would lead to the destruction of the facility. He was hoping that the fire that he caused would kill Vido and his men, but it didn't. When that failed, he destroyed the pipes, which killed Vido's men, and it also opened the door, which enabled us to chase after Vido.

However, I was referring to the fact that Vido was using the workers for slave labour, and I highly doubt he was a gentle slavemaster. An arrogant, ruthless, evasive bastard like Vido needs to die, so that no one else suffers like the workers already have at his hands.

The Blue Suns would indeed be crippled by the loss of a logistics expert like Vido, but somebody far more violent and ruthless could take over the organization. At least with Vido, there is a modicum of control over the organization. With Vido in charge, he will only invest in what is profitable, so the best way to defeat the Blue Suns is to find their illegal operations and obliterate them until Vido realizes it's too damn expensive to keep breaking the law.

Unfortunately for us in this debate, the key word here is 'could'.

True, someone else could always take over. Pity we're never actually shown the consequences of whether we save the workers or kill Vido.<_<

The Blue Suns could completely fall to pieces. The Blue Suns could get even meaner. Hell, the Blue Suns could get another Helena Blake, and get more peaceful. We don't know.

I am operating on what I do know:
1. The leader of the Blue Suns is here, at this facility.
2. If we reach him quick enough, we will be able to kill him.
3. There are people in danger, but if Vido escapes, more people will wind up in danger further down the line.

I don't have time to consider whether his death could lead to a better or worse boss; if we kill him, we dispose of a very high-ranking member of one of the biggest merc organisations in the galaxy.

[Valmarn]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

Therion942 wrote...

I don't take orders from my crew, we were there to liberate the damn factory, we will continue on course until I say otherwise.

But it was Zaeed's mission, and you weren't there to save the workers. The contract may have said so but Zaeed himself tells you that it isn't why you're there.

Boy, you sure are defensive of Zaeed.

I'm not sure why you think his words carry more weight than a contract.

Personally, I couldn't give two sh**s that it's "his" mission. As Zaeed said on Omega, the workers at the refinery were slave labor under the Blue Suns. He was hired to liberate the refinery, and part of the deal he struck with Cerberus was to get help with that mission. My character agrees to help under the pretense that it's a rescue mission, not a revenge mission.

When my Shepard made the decision to save the workers, I doubt she would have cared if Zaeed went after Vido without her. He seemed more than capable of doing so.

Modifié par Valmarn, 16 octobre 2010 - 11:15 .

[uzivatel]

My Shepard is there to save the workers and thats what he/she does.
Dont you need the heavy weapon upgrade to be able to shoot the nuke twice, anyway?

Modifié par uzivatel, 16 octobre 2010 - 11:51 .

[DPSSOC]

Exile Isan wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Ok I want you to look very carefully at the wording of that statement.  "Liberate the factory" does not mean "save the workers" it means regain control of the physical structure (factory) from the Blue Suns.  It's probably better for the company in question that their workers survive (don't have to hire and train new monkies), but it is not a primary mission directive.  By killing Vido you ensure that the entire Blue Suns presence is eliminated from the base thus ensuring the completion of the mission (Factory Liberated, Workers Dead).

And a burned down factory is better for Eldfell-Ashland how?

 
Well it isn't, like I said they'd probably prefer not having their workers die and refinery burn down.  However based on the info we have from Zaeed, not much admittedly, the condition of the factory was not part of the contract.  He was hired to go in and eliminate the Blue Suns presence, no more no less, if his employers failed to stipulate that they wanted the factory intact and their workers alive that's their problem.  It's similar to construction contracts, if you are not very, very specific you will get screwed over.

Exile Isan wrote...
Not to mention to my Shepard "liberate" does mean saving the workers because they Blue Suns were using them for slave labor and Zaeed also mentions that the company wanted that dealt with, too.

 
And that's fine I was just pointing out saving workers is not necessarily included in the liberate the refinery mission objective.

Exile Isan wrote...
My Shepard hates slavers (Colonist) and has a soft spot for those that they enslave. I also explained, in my earlier post, why my Shepard wouldn't help Zaeed in his quest for revenge. Roleplaying! What a novel concept.

My Shepard (Colonist) also hates slavers and seeks to kill them whenever he encounters them.  Slaves are slaves and nothing you do can undo what was done or make them whole human beings again (someone could surely but not you).  If you free the slaves and the slaver escapes they are just going to repeat their actions and you've accomplished nothing.  By killing the slaver, even at the cost of the slaves, you ensure they will be his last victims.

wizardryforever wrote...
If you let the workers die, the refinery burns down.  Completely.  Even if it didn't say it in the mission report, it makes perfect sense.  Other than the Blue Suns (who have been killed), Shepard is the only one in the area who can put out the fire, if you don't it burns everything down.  It certainly won't stop on its own.

The refinery seems to be made of metal, metal doesn't burn, so once the supply of fuel has been burned through the fire will die on it's own and it's possible the structure would remain standing.

wizardryforever wrote...
For something to be liberated, it needs to still be whole (or alive if it's a person), and returned to its original owner (or freed if its a person).  If its destroyed, it can't be returned.  So a destroyed refinery is not liberated, no matter how you look at it.

Liberate (v)


1. to set free, as from imprisonment or bondage.
2. to free (a nation or area) from control by a foreign or oppressive government.
3. to free (a group or individual) from social or economic constraints or discrimination, esp. arising from traditional role expectations or bias.
4. to disengage; set free from combination, as a gas.
5. Slang . to steal or take over illegally: The soldiers liberated a consignment of cigarettes.

Now which of those indicates the condition of the object/person being liberated.  I realize I'm being remarkably literal but when dealing with the details of a contract you must.  Unless Eldfell-Ashland specified, in writing, the desired condition of the refinery upon return, any condition is acceptable.

wizardryforever wrote...
And besides, Eldfell-Ashland definitely wants its refinery back much more than it wants some merc boss dead.  And that really is all Vido was.  He wasn't a terrorist per-se, nor is he some evil overlord that needs to be killed no matter the cost.  Killing him would be great, but saving lives is more important than taking them.

I'm sure they would and I'm sure it is, but giving Zaeed a clear head, thus improving the odds of success with your mission, is more important than anything.  Your mission trumps all and therefore the condition of your crew trumps all except the mission.

wizardryforever wrote...
And really, letting people die because Vido might do something in the future just seems heartless, especially when we have no guarantee that he even makes it off planet if you save the workers (metagame).

Yes it is heartless but it's not might it's will.  Vido has been harming people, directly and indirectly, for the past 20+ years, he's not going to stop unless you make him.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 16 octobre 2010 - 02:10 .

[Xilizhra]

Don't you still stop his vehicle if you save the workers?

[tommyt_1994]

Valmarn wrote...

tommyt_1994 wrote...

Therion942 wrote...

I don't take orders from my crew, we were there to liberate the damn factory, we will continue on course until I say otherwise.

But it was Zaeed's mission, and you weren't there to save the workers. The contract may have said so but Zaeed himself tells you that it isn't why you're there.

Boy, you sure are defensive of Zaeed.

I'm not sure why you think his words carry more weight than a contract.

Personally, I couldn't give two sh**s that it's "his" mission. As Zaeed said on Omega, the workers at the refinery were slave labor under the Blue Suns. He was hired to liberate the refinery, and part of the deal he struck with Cerberus was to get help with that mission. My character agrees to help under the pretense that it's a rescue mission, not a revenge mission.

When my Shepard made the decision to save the workers, I doubt she would have cared if Zaeed went after Vido without her. He seemed more than capable of doing so.

Not being defensive, simply stating facts there.

Modifié par tommyt_1994, 16 octobre 2010 - 06:23 .

[Exile Isan]

DPSSOC wrote...
Well it isn't, like I said they'd probably prefer not having their workers die and refinery burn down.  However based on the info we have from Zaeed, not much admittedly, the condition of the factory was not part of the contract.  He was hired to go in and eliminate the Blue Suns presence, no more no less, if his employers failed to stipulate that they wanted the factory intact and their workers alive that's their problem.  It's similar to construction contracts, if you are not very, very specific you will get screwed over.

If Eldfell-Ashland doesn't care about the state of the factory when liberated from the Blue Suns then what the hell is the point of hiring Zaeed to go and get rid of them? Eldfell-Ashland wanted to get rid of the Blue Suns there because they were no longer gaining money from the refinery. That is the only logical reason that Eldfell-Ashland issued the contract. If you burn down the refinery destroying the buildings and killing the workers then you might as well have never landed on the planet in the first place. At least that's the way Eldfell-Ashland will see it. They have gained nothing from this endeavor and only have a pile of twisted slang and bodies to show for it. And just because Zaeed doesn't say it, doesn't mean it wasn't written into the contract (but mean it was either, but logically it would be). Zaeed really only gives us the basic run down of the contract.

Also, even if the buildings are made of metal and won't "burn" they can still be heated enough, especially with an acclerant, to buckle and twist, weakening the integrity of a structure. Many a buidling have been condemned because of weakened structure after a particularly intense fire even though the bulding looks like it's still standing. And let's not forget the hazardous material that is refined in the factory that we are talking about and the possibility of it blowing sky high at any moment in a glorious mushroom cloud. I mean if you go after Vido do you even stop the fire? If not, that is extremely stupid.

Modifié par Exile Isan, 16 octobre 2010 - 03:07 .

[CalJones]

Basically, if you don't save the refinery, you fail the mission from the employer's (Eldfell-Ashland's) point of view. The fact you get less credits reflects this.

I also hate hearing the workers screaming as they burn.

However, I find it very hard not to go after Vido. I've saved the workers once or twice but in most of my runs, Vido dies. Part of it is for the same reason that I almost always let the hostages die in Bring Down the Sky. I can't abide terrorists, and if you let them escape, they'll do the same again, or worse. Greater good, and so forth.

The other part is Zaeed saying that he sees Vido's face every time he closes his eyes or hears a gunshot. Sounds like borderline PTSD to me. I don't always agree with revenge and like to redeem characters where possible, but Vido's a stone cold bastard and if killing him will give Zaeed some peace, I'm good with that.

You can argue that Zaeed might have another shot at Vido, but the workers will definitely die if you don't save them, and that's a valid view. But for me, 9 times out of 10, I'll side with Zaeed, even on my paragons.

[Praetor Knight]

I want to clarify what I posted earlier, I think that Zaeed never got a contract from Eldfell-Ashland.



Zaeed simply got Vido's recent location probably from Cerberus Intel, and wants to kill him no matter what. So he lies to Shepard to make sure that they go there to deal with Vido.



The merc groups are ruthless any place they are so those people that were found dead at the beginning illustrates that,



but Zaeed loses his composure and damages the refinery, so what happens from there in the mission is dealing with Zaeed's actions and dealing with which choice is for the greater good saving surviviors or chasing Vido.

[packardbell]

Wasn't Vido in semi-retirement and had that batarian do most of the logistics so reaslitically killing him wouldn't make that much of a difference.

[tommyt_1994]

I always feel the need to 'get the guy'. It really makes this decision difficult because I always have that little voice in the back of my head saying "He'll just do it again and you won't be there next time."

[mosor]

I kill Vido cuz I want the assault rifle upgrade

Modifié par mosor, 17 octobre 2010 - 01:46 .

[tommyt_1994]

^My Revenant kills fast enough as is

Modifié par tommyt_1994, 17 octobre 2010 - 01:50 .

[mosor]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

^My Revenant kills fast enough as is

True enough, but getting the upgrade on Zaeeds mission opens up the assault rifle penetration research pre-horizon.

[tommyt_1994]

mosor wrote...

tommyt_1994 wrote...

^My Revenant kills fast enough as is

True enough, but getting the upgrade on Zaeeds mission opens up the assault rifle penetration research pre-horizon.

If only I'd allow myself to meta-game away decisions like these lol. I find that I make up my mind better when I get away from these forums though. Yet I still create countless topics like these, they're too interesting.

Modifié par tommyt_1994, 17 octobre 2010 - 03:20 .

[Foolsfolly]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

mosor wrote...

tommyt_1994 wrote...

^My Revenant kills fast enough as is

True enough, but getting the upgrade on Zaeeds mission opens up the assault rifle penetration research pre-horizon.

If only I'd allow myself to meta-game away decisions like these lol. I find that I make up my mind better when I get away from these forums though. Yet I still create countless topics like these, they're too interesting.

Man I can't not metagame at least a little. That AR upgrade is a huge incentive to let the place burn. I've only saved the workers 3 times out of who knows how many playthroughs because letting them burn for those three characters was simply not an option.

[TheGreyGhost119]

This is actually one of the harder decisions for me. My first play through, I chose Vido as I wasn't sure I could even secure Zaeeds loyalty if I didn't. I'm still actually not sure how to tackle this for my canon game. My Shepard typically takes a "it's none of my business" approach to the loyalty missions. He doesn't stop Miranda, Garrus or Mordin from killing Niket, Sidonis or Mealon as it isn't up to him on how to handle those situations.



In the end, I think I am going to choose Paragon just for the simple fact that Zaeed is a loose canon and needs to learn to stick to the mission and not be a selfish bastard.



Side Note: Anyone find it strange that it took Zaeed 20 years to track down Vido? He couldn't happen to get ahold of a Shadow Broker agent or something?

[pf17456]

My Shepard would have gone after Vido had Zaeed not gone all rogue and mouthed off in a threatening tone. My Shepard won't tolerate insubordination and the Collector mission takes priority.
When push comes to shove Shepard is in charge. Paragon or renegade or somewhere in between Zaeed gets in Shepard's face trying to call the shots and it's lesson or smackdown time for Zaeed.
He's lucky he didn't get shot in the head again at the gate. Shepard does consider Zaeed an important member of the team and respects him.

Modifié par pf17456, 17 octobre 2010 - 05:29 .

[ODST 3]

The mission is to take the refinery out of the hands of the Blue Suns and free the slaves. As far as I'm concerned, Zaeed's beef with Vido is an unrelated personal grudge and that **** will not lead to the sacrifice of innocents on my watch.

[tommyt_1994]

My Shepard also really despises slavers, and letting one go doesn't sound ideal to him. Add that to the fact that my Shepard also understand Zaeed's need for revenge and his "the mission comes first" mentality (Collector mission, you need everyone focused on the Suicide mission) and it isn't hard to justify chasing Vido for my Shepard.

[CroGamer002]

I done pretty much all options on that mission( saved hostage Zaeed loyal, save them Zaeed not loyal, let Zaeed kill Vido and hostages die, saved hostages and let Zaeed die in fire), but I choose option 1.

[skcih-deraj]

I always do his mission after the suicide mission...so I can leave him to die. (but thats just me...I don't like Zaheed much.)

[Count Viceroy]

Zaeed, doesn't stick to the mission, Zaeed sets the place on fire and then tries to blackmail shepard into following his lead cause of some revenge fantasy he's been chasing. Blue suns is a para military organisation, killing vido won't do anything as the next in line will just step up, and chances are he's just as bad or worse.

I'm renegade but I'm still in charge, and the moment Zaeed starts barking orders that aren't even related to why you're supposed to be there and is made worse by Zaeed him self means he can go to hell. I only wish you had the option of leaving him there pre suicide mission, he's clearly shown he's not trust worthy and I don't want him on my team.

Here's the funny bit, If he had told me before hand, I want us to go here and kill this SOB it would have been a totally different situation.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 18 octobre 2010 - 12:50 .