136 réponses à ce sujet

[PauseforEffect]

Save the workers. Zaeed forgets that though it is his mission, he asked Shepard to help finish it. Why take Vido down with hopes to stop the Blue Suns from harming people when you can stop the harm they are doing now? Stopping this particular group won't halt other Blue Suns members in other parts of the galaxy from doing harm, nor will it break up the organization as a whole. Vido is just one member out of so many and hardly loved enough to cause any grief to other mercs.

Also, Shepard has eleven other teammates to finish the Suicide mission; Success does not hinge on every member's loyalty, it only increases the chances.

[Valmarn]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

Valmarn wrote...

tommyt_1994 wrote...

Therion942 wrote...

I don't take orders from my crew, we were there to liberate the damn factory, we will continue on course until I say otherwise.

But it was Zaeed's mission, and you weren't there to save the workers. The contract may have said so but Zaeed himself tells you that it isn't why you're there.

Boy, you sure are defensive of Zaeed.

I'm not sure why you think his words carry more weight than a contract.

Personally, I couldn't give two sh**s that it's "his" mission. As Zaeed said on Omega, the workers at the refinery were slave labor under the Blue Suns. He was hired to liberate the refinery, and part of the deal he struck with Cerberus was to get help with that mission. My character agrees to help under the pretense that it's a rescue mission, not a revenge mission.

When my Shepard made the decision to save the workers, I doubt she would have cared if Zaeed went after Vido without her. He seemed more than capable of doing so.

Not being defensive, simply stating facts there.

Not from where I'm standing. You said, "The contract may have said so but Zaeed himself tells you that it isn't why you're there."

Sounds awfully defensive to me. Basically, you're saying that, regardless of what the contract states, you should listen to Zaeed.

[Valmarn]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Zaeed, doesn't stick to the mission, Zaeed sets the place on fire and then tries to blackmail shepard into following his lead cause of some revenge fantasy he's been chasing. Blue suns is a para military organisation, killing vido won't do anything as the next in line will just step up, and chances are he's just as bad or worse.

I'm renegade but I'm still I'm charge, and the moment Zaeed starts barking orders that aren't even related to why you're supposed to be there and is made worse by Zaeed him self means he can go to hell. I only wish you had the option of leaving him there pre suicide mission, he's clearly shown he's not trust worthy and I don't want him on my team.

Here's the funny bit, If he had told me before hand, I want us to go here and kill this SOB it would have been a totally different situation.

My thoughts, exactly.

[tommyt_1994]

[/quote]

Not from where I'm standing. You said, "The contract may have said so but Zaeed himself tells you that it isn't why you're there."

Sounds awfully defensive to me. Basically, you're saying that, regardless of what the contract states, you should listen to Zaeed.[/quote]

I guess either I wasn't being clear or you misunderstand. I was trying to state that the mission was to kill Vido. Killing Vido is the reason you're there, Shepard just doesn't know this until you land. Im not trying to defend Zaeed, I unserstand  both sides of the argument here.

Modifié par tommyt_1994, 18 octobre 2010 - 03:37 .

[Sgt Lindog]

i always thought think of the similarity to the first mass effect book. Saren creates a very similar situation to zaeed blowing up an entire refinery and all the innocent workers inside to kill one bad guy. because of this i chose to save the workers as i want to be nothing like saren. Also if zaeed hadnt decided to be so reckless and stupid then i wouldnt have had to save the workers and so its his fault and he should suck it up.

[Dean_the_Young]

I kill Vido, for a number of reasons.



Whether he was open about it from the stop or not, Vido was Zaeed's reason for dragging me out there in the first place. While I disapprove of Zaeed's impromptu opening the gates without informing me ahead of time, that in and of itself isn't grounds to simply react and go 'nuhuh, if you brought me all this way because you want to go that way we'll go this way, show you who's boss!'



Killing Vido is also, I firmly believe, a greater good for the galaxy as a whole. The Blue Suns aren't a government/civilian business with loyalty, trust, and a firmly accepted chain of command. They are a pack of pirates, and a leadership vacuum isn't going to simply follow a 'next person, please step up, everyone now accept the new leader.' There will be infighting, as these groups are prone to do, and as we see even in ME2 missions. And the more infighting they do, the more they take their energies out on eachother and not the outside world, and the less they can do after the blood stops flowing.



I don't stay swayed by the 'but someone worse than Vido will come along' argument on grounds that if someone were better and more vicious than Vido, they'd have most likely already have made their move, and would face the most resistance from within the Suns.



Hurting the Blue Suns was also a retaliation in general for their attempt to imprison me on Purgatory, which had been done shortly before.

[Count Viceroy]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

I guess either I wasn't being clear or you misunderstand. I was trying to state that the mission was to kill Vido. Killing Vido is the reason you're there, Shepard just doesn't know this until you land. Im not trying to defend Zaeed, I unserstand  both sides of the argument here.

The contract you pick up on behalf of cerberus as part of his hire is to liberate the factory, Zaeed doesn't mention that he doesn't give a **** until after you're planetside, Then he makes the situation undoubtbly worse and starts arguing with shepard. I personally don't care about vido or the workers. I'm there to help Zaeed and complete the mission, but he's just proven himself 1: untrustworthy, 2: unable to follow my lead. By lying to me and then lighting the entire refinery on fire, for all you know, shepard is just as likely to perish in there. 

This tells me i don't want him on my suicide mission right there. Vido or workers be damned. What if he decides mid mission later on **** you shepard, I'm just going to do this instead. I'm then forced to clean up his mess or fall in line like a second in command.  He's a liabilty I don't need. Wether or not the game mechanic itself prevents such an event from happening cause I did him a favor is meta gaming and beside the point.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 18 octobre 2010 - 01:01 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Still ticks me off that the whole issue of time and catching up to Vido is entirely contrived. If you save the workers, it doesn't matter how fast you get through the refinery, Vido is always just taking off. If you let the workers die and go after Vido, it doesn't matter how long you take, you'll always catch him.



I've tested the latter to the extreme, even parking the squad in a safe spot, not pausing, and letting the game just sit for hours on end. Guess what -- you still catch Vido.

[mosor]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Still ticks me off that the whole issue of time and catching up to Vido is entirely contrived. If you save the workers, it doesn't matter how fast you get through the refinery, Vido is always just taking off. If you let the workers die and go after Vido, it doesn't matter how long you take, you'll always catch him.

I've tested the latter to the extreme, even parking the squad in a safe spot, not pausing, and letting the game just sit for hours on end. Guess what -- you still catch Vido.

You fight less enemies if you save the hostages. Should have taken less time *shrugs*

[Dean_the_Young]

...duh?



It's a story mechanic, not a time mechanic. Story-wise, the same Shepard that took fifty minutes to fight through the room and arrived 'just in time' would have taken fifty minutes plus whatever it took to save the refinery. And the Shepard who ran through the refinery and the battle in ten minutes and be late, would have beaten the enemies in less than ten minutes had they skipped saving the refinery.



It's the exact same nature as every choice in the game where time has relevance. You can waver on whether to save the Destiny Ascension for hours. You can hold up the loyalty conflicts for days, when either participant should simply collapse from exhaustion. You spend weeks making the choice on Virmire after the nuke has already been set and is counting down.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

...duh?

It's a story mechanic, not a time mechanic. Story-wise, the same Shepard that took fifty minutes to fight through the room and arrived 'just in time' would have taken fifty minutes plus whatever it took to save the refinery. And the Shepard who ran through the refinery and the battle in ten minutes and be late, would have beaten the enemies in less than ten minutes had they skipped saving the refinery.

It's the exact same nature as every choice in the game where time has relevance. You can waver on whether to save the Destiny Ascension for hours. You can hold up the loyalty conflicts for days, when either participant should simply collapse from exhaustion. You spend weeks making the choice on Virmire after the nuke has already been set and is counting down.

No, it's not the same.  You're taking about time BEFORE the choice is made, while the game is waiting on you to click on something so that it can proceed. 

I'm talking about AFTER the choice.  There is no actual time involved.  It's entirely contrived.  AFTER making the choice, if you choose to save the workers, you can have the fastest, cleanest runthough possible, killing everything with maximum efficiency, and you will NEVER catch Vido -- no matter how long you take, he'll always be taking off the moment you get to him.  If you chose to catch Vido, you can park the squad for 8 or 9 hours, just let the game sit, and Zaeed will always get Vido, no matter what. 

I really wish people would stop making the same tired lame "story abstraction" excuse for halfass contrivances in gameplay.  Situations like this are forced and artificial.  If you, as a game designer, tell me that it's a matter of time, you'd damn well better put a timer on it -- visible or hidden -- and let my gameplay affect the outcome. 


EDIT:  Typo.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 18 octobre 2010 - 02:42 .

[Tranceptor]

As Paragon femshep:



I save the workers and then let Zaeed burn to death.



He was as dangerous to my team as he was to my enemies, I figured letting him roast would be the best way to make him understand that point of view.

[Xivai]

Save one small factory of people and not be guaranteed Zaeed's loyalty.



or



Kill Vido (who is a bastard anyways) and your guaranteed Zaeed's loyalty for the final mission. Thus making my odds of saving the whole galaxy greater.



On my first play through I had no idea how little or how much I would need to prepare going into the gate. So I grudgingly went with Zaeed to kill VIdo. I did it for the greater good, and I would think any other choice would be irresponsible if we keep it int he context of saving the whole galaxy.

[Valmarn]

[quote]tommyt_1994 wrote...

[/quote]

Not from where I'm standing. You said, "The contract may have said so but Zaeed himself tells you that it isn't why you're there."

Sounds awfully defensive to me. Basically, you're saying that, regardless of what the contract states, you should listen to Zaeed.[/quote]

I guess either I wasn't being clear or you misunderstand. I was trying to state that the mission was to kill Vido. Killing Vido is the reason you're there, Shepard just doesn't know this until you land. Im not trying to defend Zaeed, I unserstand  both sides of the argument here.

[/quote]

No, I understand what you're saying. You made it perfectly clear in the quote that I posted: whatever the contract says (even if it states that the workers and/or refinery are to be saved), it doesn't matter. You're there to kill Vido. Period.

However, Zaeed did not say that when I picked him up, back on Omega. I have no choice but to hold him at what he said on Omega, and to take his words on Zoyra with a grain of salt.

[Dean_the_Young]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

No, it's not the same.  You're taking about time BEFORE the choice is made, will the game is waiting on you to click on something so that it can proceed. 

I'm talking about AFTER the choice.  There is no actual time involved.  It's entirely contrived.  AFTER making the choice, if you choose to save the workers, you can have the fastest, cleanest runthough possible, killing everything with maximum efficiency, and you will NEVER catch Vido -- no matter how long you take, he'll always be taking off the moment you get to him.  If you chose to catch Vido, you can park the squad for 8 or 9 hours, just let the game sit, and Zaeed will always get Vido, no matter what. 

No, it is the same concept: story consequences following the flow of story decisions, not timers. There is no time involvement in how long it takes you to finish the lass mission of Mass Effect, there is no time limit on how long it takes you to finish Samara's recruitment mission even though you have only a day until she goes and breaks out of jail.

The story goes by, surprise, the story choice. Not how fast at gameplay you are. Time-sensitive story in ME is only rarely dictated by an actual timer, and those sequences are uniformly pointed out by, you know, an actual timer.

I really wish people would stop making the same tired lame "story abstraction" excuse for halfass contrivances in gameplay.  Situations like this are forced and artificial.  If you, as a game designer, tell me that it's a matter of time, you'd damn well better put a timer on it -- visible or hidden -- and let my gameplay affect the outcome. 

Nice passive-aggressive-victimized attitude there! Suddenly you become much more reasonable and persuasive!

Gameplay has virtually always been a model of story progression, not an actual 'this is exactly how it happened' if it happened: we accept things such as badguy inflation, level design, even character powerup exploits as a consequence of game play. World clock and dramatic timing is another of those accepted functions. If you haven't accepted that yet, you're going to be a very unhappy camper for the rest of your life.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

No, it's not the same.  You're taking about time BEFORE the choice is made, will the game is waiting on you to click on something so that it can proceed. 

I'm talking about AFTER the choice.  There is no actual time involved.  It's entirely contrived.  AFTER making the choice, if you choose to save the workers, you can have the fastest, cleanest runthough possible, killing everything with maximum efficiency, and you will NEVER catch Vido -- no matter how long you take, he'll always be taking off the moment you get to him.  If you chose to catch Vido, you can park the squad for 8 or 9 hours, just let the game sit, and Zaeed will always get Vido, no matter what. 

No, it is the same concept: story consequences following the flow of story decisions, not timers. There is no time involvement in how long it takes you to finish the lass mission of Mass Effect, there is no time limit on how long it takes you to finish Samara's recruitment mission even though you have only a day until she goes and breaks out of jail.

The story goes by, surprise, the story choice. Not how fast at gameplay you are. Time-sensitive story in ME is only rarely dictated by an actual timer, and those sequences are uniformly pointed out by, you know, an actual timer.

I really wish people would stop making the same tired lame "story abstraction" excuse for halfass contrivances in gameplay.  Situations like this are forced and artificial.  If you, as a game designer, tell me that it's a matter of time, you'd damn well better put a timer on it -- visible or hidden -- and let my gameplay affect the outcome. 

Nice passive-aggressive-victimized attitude there! Suddenly you become much more reasonable and persuasive!

Gameplay has virtually always been a model of story progression, not an actual 'this is exactly how it happened' if it happened: we accept things such as badguy inflation, level design, even character powerup exploits as a consequence of game play. World clock and dramatic timing is another of those accepted functions. If you haven't accepted that yet, you're going to be a very unhappy camper for the rest of your life.

I'm told I don't have time to do both. 

Then I see that time really isn't the issue at all, it's entirely forced and artificial.  No matter what you actually do, there's no way to overcome the split that occurs at that decision.  The game designers wanted the player to have to make a choice, so no matter what you do, there's no way around it, you're either letting the workers die or letting one of the worst criminals in the Milky Way escape. 

If you can't see how that's a forced contrivance, then I guess we're done.

[Mecha Tengu]

Kill Vido



Zaeed retakes blue Suns, and will be indebt to me because of my help in that matter. Blue suns can help fight reapers, or at least get out of the way.



Besides, I hate being the good knight in shining armour. Zaeed's been waiting 20 years, revenge is sweet

[Dean_the_Young]

And you don't have time, in the story. The same Shepard who, in that playthrough, took 9 hours to fight through would have taken nine hours plus the time it took to save the hostages. The same Shepard iteration who, having chosen to save the hostages and fights through in eight minutes, would have gotten through in seven minutes had he chosen otherwise.





But I guess we're done, so be off with you, to angst about long established standards of game story telling in another thread.

[Mecha Tengu]

[Edit: Insults on the public forum are not necessary. Thank you. -- Pacifien]

Modifié par Pacifien, 18 octobre 2010 - 04:29 .

[Xilizhra]

Mecha Tengu wrote...
[Edit: Comment removed. -- Pacifien]

And proud of it. Also, I lol'd at your using "moral" as an insult.

Modifié par Pacifien, 18 octobre 2010 - 04:30 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And you don't have time, in the story. The same Shepard who, in that playthrough, took 9 hours to fight through would have taken nine hours plus the time it took to save the hostages. The same Shepard iteration who, having chosen to save the hostages and fights through in eight minutes, would have gotten through in seven minutes had he chosen otherwise..

What do you mean, I don't have time?  If I can catch Vido after letting the game sit for 8 or 9 hours unpaused, why can't I catch Vido if I make it through the entire refinery in five minutes or less?  Same Shep, same third team member, just reloaded and taking the other choice.  There aren't "two iterations" there. 

The only thing that seperates the two playthroughs of the mission is the contrivance.

[GrimmReaper28]

I've read enough of this to justify my in-game decision.
Zaeed, in his crazy revenge anger state of mind decided to make things explode, obviously without my permission. From that explosion, the slave workers became trapped. HE caused that, so HE should have been prepared to fix it. And it's as PrimalEden said: *Stopping this particular group won't halt other Blue Suns members in other parts of the galaxy from doing harm, nor will it break up the organization as a whole. Vido is just one member out of so many and hardly loved enough to cause any grief to other mercs.* Not only is this true, but it's better to save the innocent and the non-innocent than to kill both.
And to Mecha Tengu:
I'm a Renegade, but towards my friends I'm a Paragon.

Modifié par GrimmReaper28, 18 octobre 2010 - 04:08 .

[GrimmReaper28]

I've read enough of this to justify my in-game decision.
Zaeed, in his crazy revenge anger state of mind decided to make things explode, obviously without my permission. From that explosion, the slave workers became trapped. HE caused that, so HE should have been prepared to fix it. And it's as PrimalEden said:

Stopping this particular group won't halt other Blue Suns members in other parts of the galaxy from doing harm, nor will it break up the organization as a whole. Vido is just one member out of so many and hardly loved enough to cause any grief to other mercs.

Not only is this true, but it's better to save the innocent and the non-innocent than to kill both.
And to Mecha Tengu:
I'm a Renegade, but I don't believe in unnecessarily shedding innocent blood.

[Pacifien]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
What do you mean, I don't have time?  If I can catch Vido after letting the game sit for 8 or 9 hours unpaused, why can't I catch Vido if I make it through the entire refinery in five minutes or less?  Same Shep, same third team member, just reloaded and taking the other choice.  There aren't "two iterations" there. 

The only thing that seperates the two playthroughs of the mission is the contrivance.

The thing that I think players fail to understand is that if you make one decision, the outcome of the other decision does not exist. What could have happened had you taken the paragon route should be meaningless to the person who took the other path. That is some alternate universe where other things happened that have no bearing on your current playthrough.

I could do a speed run of the paragon path faster than the average time it takes someone to get through the renegade path, but still not catch Vido. Alternatively, I could take an hour playing through the renegade path battle and still catch Vido fine. The developers put not time limit on the mission, probably to accommodate the various types of players who take anywhere from 15 minutes to an hour to complete the same battles.

Your choices are only altering the outcome of your current playthrough. You could make a different choice in another playthrough only to discover it leads to the same outcome. Or you could make a different choice in another playthrough and discover it significantly alters the outcome. That's kind of the nature of an RPG.

[Praetor Knight]

Also, consider that Vido is maneuvering through the burning refinery also (you both start on the same side of the facility) so the Paragon path can make it easier for Vido to escape (less fires, damaged corridors?) regardless of how long either path takes to get to the platform at the end.