58 réponses à ce sujet

[ShrinkingFish]

Seriously... I'm curious...

Did anyone pick Udina to join/lead the Council in the end? And if you did, I would love to hear why.

I seriously see no good reason to pick him over Captain Anderson. And I cannot imagine why anyone wouldn't pick Captain Anderson... I've tried asking my friends who have all played but they all share my exact opinion on this choice. They've played Renegades, Paragons and mixes of both and all of them chose good ol' Anderson.

I am seriously very curious to hear another point of view.

[Randy1012]

In four out of five playthroughs so far I've chosen Anderson, even in my pure Renegade playthrough. I just don't trust Udina enough to make him one of the most powerful people in the galaxy. However, in my current playthrough (which I'm just about to finish up), I'm going to choose Udina even though I'm playing a Paragon. Just to do things a little differently.

[ShrinkingFish]

That is the best reason I can think of too...



For a change of pace.



Boggles the mind.

[caradoc2000]

I always pick Udina. Anderson is a soldier, not a politician.

[ShrinkingFish]

caradoc2000 wrote...

I always pick Udina. Anderson is a soldier, not a politician.

Hence why, in my opinion, Anderson is always the better choice. Politicians cannot be trusted to look out for anyone's interests other than their own. Udina exemplifies this law. Soldiers, especially Captains like Anderson, are trained and conditioned to always look out for others.

In addition, Udina seeks that power, wants it and is always working towards it. Therefore he is unworthy of the responsibility. Anderson does not ask for the power, does not want it, but takes it on a necessary burden for the good of humanity...

So for me this is not a good reason at all. In fact it is one of my main reasons why never to pick Udina.

[caradoc2000]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Soldiers, especially Captains like Anderson, are trained and conditioned to always look out for others.

Real life examples of military rule have a bad track record when it comes to benefitting the people.

Udina on the other hand is an experienced diplomat and politician.

[Randy1012]

He's also a slimy, double-crossing opportunist who believes humanity should only cooperate with the other races when it's convenient. Anderson believes humanity should work with the other species for the betterment of all, not just his own people. Even if you choose Anderson in the Renegade ending, he still takes a "humanity needs to lead the fight against the Reapers" approach.

[caradoc2000]

Although many people mistakenly believe otherwise, politics isn't about altruism. Politics is about making the world/galaxy a better place for your interest group, and cooperating with others when it suits your interests.



To quote von Clausewitz: "War is the continuation of politics by other means."

[Randy1012]

Oh, I hold no illusions about politics or politicians. That's why I don't trust Udina.

Modifié par Randy1083, 15 octobre 2010 - 09:13 .

[caradoc2000]

Randy1083 wrote...

Oh, I hold no illusions about politics or politicians. That's why I don't trust Udina.

And that is why Udina would likely be a better councillor than Anderson.

Besides, as said above Anderson doesn't even want the job, he just wants to retire.

[ShrinkingFish]

caradoc2000 wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Soldiers, especially Captains like Anderson, are trained and conditioned to always look out for others.

Real life examples of military rule have a bad track record when it comes to benefitting the people.

Udina on the other hand is an experienced diplomat and politician.

George Washington. Nuff said.

All negative military examples you can name are cases when the Military forcfully took power for the General in question's own gain. Anderson is unwilling but able, views the power as a burden, just like Washington.

[ShrinkingFish]

caradoc2000 wrote...

Although many people mistakenly believe otherwise, politics isn't about altruism. Politics is about making the world/galaxy a better place for your interest group, and cooperating with others when it suits your interests.

To quote von Clausewitz: "War is the continuation of politics by other means."

You're right and wrong. Politics isn't about altruism... it is about self-interest. Whatever benefits the politician the most is what they choose to do. Has nothing to do with making the world/galaxy a better place, that is just naive.

Udina would serve only one person's interests when in power, his own. Just like every other politician. And would use the threat of war or even withhold the military from needy colonies if it suited his purpose. Anderson would not.

And more to the point... politics should be about altruism, in an ideal world, but this isn't one, so we have to settle for the liars and self interested cheats to govern us.

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 15 octobre 2010 - 09:46 .

[caradoc2000]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Anderson is unwilling but able

Perhaps, but Udina is, IMO, willing and even more able.

[ShrinkingFish]

caradoc2000 wrote...

Randy1083 wrote...

Oh, I hold no illusions about politics or politicians. That's why I don't trust Udina.

And that is why Udina would likely be a better councillor than Anderson.

Besides, as said above Anderson doesn't even want the job, he just wants to retire.

Nowhere is it said that Anderson wants to retire. Just that he does not seek power and views the power as a burden. This, beyond all else, qualifies him to wield it.

Udina wants the power, seeks it, and views it as a boon, he is therefore exactly the person we would never want in office for those are the people who abuse whatever power they have for personal gain.

[ShrinkingFish]

caradoc2000 wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Anderson is unwilling but able

Perhaps, but Udina is, IMO, willing and even more able.

Willing an able to serve his own purposes, maybe. Completely unable to protect anyone's interests outside his own, definitely.

[user5304792]

I'm not sure if I've ever picked Udina for membership on the alien council, but I've picked him to lead the human council a few times.



I didn't think that I would, but that opportunistic speech he gives at the end if you do away with the council just brought such a devious grin to my face.

[Zaxares]

I chose Udina once or twice in some of my Renegade playthroughs just to see what would happen in ME2, but I was always disappointed with his performance and his attitude towards Shepard despite being the one who put him in power.



However, from a logical standpoint I can understand why someone would choose Udina over Anderson. Anderson is a soldier; he spends most of his time commanding ships and men on the battlefield. He doesn't have the experience and contacts that Udina would have in dealing with politicians and dignitaries, especially from other races. (I'll grant that Anderson is certainly a smart enough man to be able to learn these things, but that takes time, time which we may not have.) To quote a certain krogan from ME2: "I knew who to lean on, who to smile at." Somebody coming into the role with absolutely no clue about the rules of the game is going to make mistakes, some of which could be very costly both economically and politically.



Plus, Anderson is a very principled man. I have the utmost respect and admiration for that, but the unfortunate truth is that politics (especially democracy) is all about compromise. Even if you ARE totally altruistic and want nothing but the best for your people or the majority, there will be people who do not agree with you, and you will need to make compromises in order to gain acceptance from these people. If we put Anderson into the role, one of two things is going to happen:



a) he is forced to compromise his principles in order to get any progress

his refusal to compromise results in him either resigning or getting kicked out of the position.

[ShrinkingFish]

user5304792 wrote...

I'm not sure if I've ever picked Udina for membership on the alien council, but I've picked him to lead the human council a few times.

I didn't think that I would, but that opportunistic speech he gives at the end if you do away with the council just brought such a devious grin to my face.

Devious grin is a good reason I suppose. He is definitely the more "evil" choice. Haha

[ShrinkingFish]

Zaxares wrote...

I chose Udina once or twice in some of my Renegade playthroughs just to see what would happen in ME2, but I was always disappointed with his performance and his attitude towards Shepard despite being the one who put him in power.

However, from a logical standpoint I can understand why someone would choose Udina over Anderson. Anderson is a soldier; he spends most of his time commanding ships and men on the battlefield. He doesn't have the experience and contacts that Udina would have in dealing with politicians and dignitaries, especially from other races. (I'll grant that Anderson is certainly a smart enough man to be able to learn these things, but that takes time, time which we may not have.) To quote a certain krogan from ME2: "I knew who to lean on, who to smile at." Somebody coming into the role with absolutely no clue about the rules of the game is going to make mistakes, some of which could be very costly both economically and politically.

Plus, Anderson is a very principled man. I have the utmost respect and admiration for that, but the unfortunate truth is that politics (especially democracy) is all about compromise. Even if you ARE totally altruistic and want nothing but the best for your people or the majority, there will be people who do not agree with you, and you will need to make compromises in order to gain acceptance from these people. If we put Anderson into the role, one of two things is going to happen:

a) he is forced to compromise his principles in order to get any progress
his refusal to compromise results in him either resigning or getting kicked out of the position.

so for you Udina inhabits the possition of the necessary evil... makes sense. Though I think the two options you presented are not the only possible results. After all, the turian Councilor is always incredibly aggressive with his views and largely uncompromising but still functions as an important member of the Council. Anderson could provide the foil to the turian Councilor providing a previously non-existant balance.

Plus one must remember that the period in which we appoint one of these two candidates the state is either at war or is heading for open war and as such Anderson's military leadership experiences would better qualify him to make decisions in guiding the Citadel fleets. The Council would defer the majority of matters of war to the turian and Anderson, the salarian providing intel and the asari mediating the discussion to reach a balanced and profitable result.

And in this time Anderson could effectively establish himself as a strong leader and build the political ties and contacts that he would otherwise be bereft of.

More-so, by evidence of Udina's performance of his duties throughout ME I'm not entirely sure he is an entirely talented politician. He tends to bully other politicians in an attempts to force them to bend to his will, which they never do, often ignoring him entirely or dismissing his arguments out of hand for the lack of elequence in their presentation. Meaning he would likely still attempt his bullying tactics while on the Council which would likely give humanity as a whole a bad name as well as ostracize potential allies rather than cultivate them...

[Thane19]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

caradoc2000 wrote...

Randy1083 wrote...

Oh, I hold no illusions about politics or politicians. That's why I don't trust Udina.

And that is why Udina would likely be a better councillor than Anderson.

Besides, as said above Anderson doesn't even want the job, he just wants to retire.

Nowhere is it said that Anderson wants to retire. Just that he does not seek power and views the power as a burden.

Actually, though those particular words might not be used, I believe you are told near the beginning of ME2, that he was "more comfortable as a solider."

Not the same thing as wanting to retire, but this might be what was being referred to.

[ShrinkingFish]

Thane19 wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

caradoc2000 wrote...

Randy1083 wrote...

Oh, I hold no illusions about politics or politicians. That's why I don't trust Udina.

And that is why Udina would likely be a better councillor than Anderson.

Besides, as said above Anderson doesn't even want the job, he just wants to retire.

Nowhere is it said that Anderson wants to retire. Just that he does not seek power and views the power as a burden.

Actually, though those particular words might not be used, I believe you are told near the beginning of ME2, that he was "more comfortable as a solider."

Not the same thing as wanting to retire, but this might be what was being referred to.

So was George Washington

But no, I didn't know that. I haven't played ME2 yet. Getting it tonight actually.

[Zaxares]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

More-so, by evidence of Udina's performance of his duties throughout ME I'm not entirely sure he is an entirely talented politician. He tends to bully other politicians in an attempts to force them to bend to his will, which they never do, often ignoring him entirely or dismissing his arguments out of hand for the lack of elequence in their presentation. Meaning he would likely still attempt his bullying tactics while on the Council which would likely give humanity as a whole a bad name as well as ostracize potential allies rather than cultivate them...

Oh, don't get me wrong. I think Udina is a HORRIBLE politician, and I can see in him the type of power-hunger that will prove his (and possibly humanity's) undoing in the long run. I personally prefer to pick Anderson as the Council representative, and did so in the vast majority of my playthroughs. I was simply explaining my reasons for why somebody might pick Udina instead.

[PrinceLionheart]

Honestly they're both okay pics. People let their opinion of Udina being a roadblock in Shepard's mission in Ilos get in the way of their judgement.



I'm paraphrasing this from another thread; yes Udina played a role in Shepard's ship being put on lockdown, but for that to have had happened, it had to be a decision from the higher ups in the Alliance as well.

[ShrinkingFish]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Honestly they're both okay pics. People let their opinion of Udina being a roadblock in Shepard's mission in Ilos get in the way of their judgement.

I'm paraphrasing this from another thread; yes Udina played a role in Shepard's ship being put on lockdown, but for that to have had happened, it had to be a decision from the higher ups in the Alliance as well.

Actually, I have a poor opinion of Udina for all of his actions bar none. Not just his lockdown of Shepard's ship. And I very much enjoyed making him Anderson's lap dog for ME2 (I got it by the way... it rules).

As such Anderson, having Udina as his lap dog, has all of Udina's strengths and none of his weaknesses and puts forth a solid and legitimate human figurehead.

Also, Udina could have locked down Shepard's ship without the approval of any higher ups. As Alliance Ambassador to the Council he has direct authority over all Alliance business on the Citadel with little oversight. There will be people pulling his strings from afar but what he does and how is mostly up to him. Government officials of that caliber are chosen by the higher governments and given wide reaching powers and influence.

Udina also took Captain Anderson out of active duty of the military and posted him as an office assistant on the Citadel. As such, in these matters, Udina is the supreme authority and does not require approval from higher ups to perform his actions. Higher ups may be able to countermand his orders but they hardly direct and limit his every move and decision. Red tape limits the effectiveness of such dignitaries and they'd want their officials to be as effective as possible.

Udina was just a ******-poor choice for the Alliance. It happens.

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 17 octobre 2010 - 10:14 .

[ShrinkingFish]

Zaxares wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

More-so, by evidence of Udina's performance of his duties throughout ME I'm not entirely sure he is an entirely talented politician. He tends to bully other politicians in an attempts to force them to bend to his will, which they never do, often ignoring him entirely or dismissing his arguments out of hand for the lack of elequence in their presentation. Meaning he would likely still attempt his bullying tactics while on the Council which would likely give humanity as a whole a bad name as well as ostracize potential allies rather than cultivate them...

Oh, don't get me wrong. I think Udina is a HORRIBLE politician, and I can see in him the type of power-hunger that will prove his (and possibly humanity's) undoing in the long run. I personally prefer to pick Anderson as the Council representative, and did so in the vast majority of my playthroughs. I was simply explaining my reasons for why somebody might pick Udina instead.

Fair enough. I was simply pointing out how that reasoning is flawed.