58 réponses à ce sujet

[maxernst]

I picked Anderson but it was a personal pick from my Commander Shepard. I'm not so sure he'll be the better candidate in the long run. While of course we see Anderson's decision to help Shepard as an admirable one, it's also an indication that he will do what he thinks is right, regardless of whether it's legal or anybody else agrees with him. He happens to be right in that instance, and he is a good and honorable man, but that doesn't necessarily mean he'll be an effective council leader. It's easy to imagine him either being impeached for taking some illegal unilateral action, feeling forced into taking authoritarian measures in order to do what needs to be done, or being ineffective because of an inability to compromise with the other council members. I disagree with those who claim military leaders only failed because they were power-hungry leaders who claimed power by force. Ulysses S. Grant was an elected military leader who is widely viewed as one of the worst presidents the U.S. ever had.



That still leaves the problem that Udina hasn't demonstrated that he's a particularly wily and persuasive politician.

[Bad King]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Seriously... I'm curious...

Did anyone pick Udina to join/lead the Council in the end? And if you did, I would love to hear why.

I seriously see no good reason to pick him over Captain Anderson. And I cannot imagine why anyone wouldn't pick Captain Anderson... I've tried asking my friends who have all played but they all share my exact opinion on this choice. They've played Renegades, Paragons and mixes of both and all of them chose good ol' Anderson.

I am seriously very curious to hear another point of view.

I picked him for the Council on my Paragade playthrough (council saved). Why? He's a fierce advocate for Humanity and an experienced politician (which means that he's less likely to be controlled/influenced by other Council members and is more respected by them than Anderson is). This could lead to better gains for Humanity (perhaps even letting Humanity bypass that darned Farixen Treaty! ) . Also he gives an epic speech:

I only pick Anderson on my pure Paragon playthroughs since he's nicer to the other races and builds more trust but at the expense of being looked down on and perhaps even influenced by the other councillors (since he's politically inexperienced).

Modifié par Bad King, 20 octobre 2010 - 09:49 .

[Thane19]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Thane19 wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

caradoc2000 wrote...

Randy1083 wrote...

Oh, I hold no illusions about politics or politicians. That's why I don't trust Udina.

And that is why Udina would likely be a better councillor than Anderson.

Besides, as said above Anderson doesn't even want the job, he just wants to retire.

Nowhere is it said that Anderson wants to retire. Just that he does not seek power and views the power as a burden.

Actually, though those particular words might not be used, I believe you are told near the beginning of ME2, that he was "more comfortable as a solider."

Not the same thing as wanting to retire, but this might be what was being referred to.

So was George Washington

But no, I didn't know that. I haven't played ME2 yet. Getting it tonight actually.

There is also one other thing. In one of the books, (Retribution?), it is stated that Anderson does step down, and I believe Udina takes his place anyway.

Udina is the more politically-savvy choice, he knows the system. It's like picking a devious lawyer to defend humanity, or picking a person who is morally good, and a soldier who is honorable, but will most likely be lost in the political machinations of the council.

If you want to fight fire with fire, then you'd pick Udina over Anderson.

[Bad King]

Thane19 wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Thane19 wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

caradoc2000 wrote...

Randy1083 wrote...

Oh, I hold no illusions about politics or politicians. That's why I don't trust Udina.

And that is why Udina would likely be a better councillor than Anderson.

Besides, as said above Anderson doesn't even want the job, he just wants to retire.

Nowhere is it said that Anderson wants to retire. Just that he does not seek power and views the power as a burden.

Actually, though those particular words might not be used, I believe you are told near the beginning of ME2, that he was "more comfortable as a solider."

Not the same thing as wanting to retire, but this might be what was being referred to.

So was George Washington

But no, I didn't know that. I haven't played ME2 yet. Getting it tonight actually.

There is also one other thing. In one of the books, (Retribution?), it is stated that Anderson does step down, and I believe Udina takes his place anyway.

Udina is the more politically-savvy choice, he knows the system. It's like picking a devious lawyer to defend humanity, or picking a person who is morally good, and a soldier who is honorable, but will most likely be lost in the political machinations of the council.

If you want to fight fire with fire, then you'd pick Udina over Anderson.

QFT.

[ShrinkingFish]

Thane19 wrote...

If you want to fight fire with fire, then you'd pick Udina over Anderson.

Keep in mind that when fighting fire with fire... firemen usually use water.

[brfritos]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Seriously... I'm curious...

Did anyone pick Udina to join/lead the Council in the end? And if you did, I would love to hear why.

I seriously see no good reason to pick him over Captain Anderson. And I cannot imagine why anyone wouldn't pick Captain Anderson... I've tried asking my friends who have all played but they all share my exact opinion on this choice. They've played Renegades, Paragons and mixes of both and all of them chose good ol' Anderson.

I am seriously very curious to hear another point of view.

There's A LOT of reasons to pick Udina as the counselor, with either the Council dead or alive.

The most obvious is he can play politics better than Anderson and it seems to have a better knowledge of the galatic laws between the different species.
Yes, he don't backup Shepard when facing the Council about Soverign, but he did when the commander is about to become a Spectre.
Also, if you choose not to let Tali follow you is Udina who says you need all the help you can get and eng. Adams will tell you that in this case Udina was right.

Usually in my renegade playthroughs I pick him, because with the Coucil dead you will need someone who knows how to play politics, not because "I'm evil" (albeit Anderson isn't a bad choice and even Udina realize this).
With the Council alive either of them will be a good choice too and I pick Anderson because there's enough politics flying around, you need someone who make things done and since there's a war coming, is better having someone with military experience.

What really disappointed me is that it doesn't make the difference who you choose.
What difference does it make having Udina and only a human Council in ME2? Or having Anderson and the Council alive?
None.

Modifié par brfritos, 22 octobre 2010 - 07:45 .

[ShrinkingFish]

brfritos wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Seriously... I'm curious...

Did anyone pick Udina to join/lead the Council in the end? And if you did, I would love to hear why.

I seriously see no good reason to pick him over Captain Anderson. And I cannot imagine why anyone wouldn't pick Captain Anderson... I've tried asking my friends who have all played but they all share my exact opinion on this choice. They've played Renegades, Paragons and mixes of both and all of them chose good ol' Anderson.

I am seriously very curious to hear another point of view.

There's A LOT of reasons to pick Udina as the counselor, with either the Council dead or alive.

The most obvious is he can play politics better than Anderson and it seems to have a better knowledge of the galatic laws between the different species.
Yes, he don't backup Shepard when facing the Council about Soverign, but he did when the commander is about to become a Spectre.
Also, if you choose not to let Tali follow you is Udina who says you need all the help you can get and eng. Adams will tell you that in this case Udina was right.

Usually in my renegade playthroughs I pick him, because with the Coucil dead you will need someone who knows how to play politics, not because "I'm evil" (albeit Anderson isn't a bad choice and even Udina realize this).
With the Council alive either of them will be a good choice too and I pick Anderson because there's enough politics flying around, you need someone who make things done and since there's a war coming, is better having someone with military experience.

What really disappointed me is that it doesn't make the difference who you choose.
What difference does it make having Udina and only a human Council in ME2? Or having Anderson and the Council alive?
None.

Well, to be fair. Only two years passed and in politics that is hardly enough time to do anything. So I didn't mind that there were no significant changes.

I'm sure the choice will make a big difference in... say... ten to fifty years.

[Manic Sheep]

I picked Anderson but honestly their both horrible choices. Anderson isn’t a politician and doesn’t even want the job and Udina is a politician but he sucks at it...well alright that’s not true, he may know his way around political process and be more knowledgeable. I assume he’s at least decent at this job or he wouldn’t be an ambassador but he doesn’t seem to deal with people well and wants to bludgeon his way thru everything. It looked like he was doing more harm than good.
So yeah I picked Anderson, He’s smart, level headed, honest (tho that might be a bad thing) and I agree with his views more than I agree with Udina’s but he needs some good advisors if he is going to make any difference.

Sucks how it doesn’t really make a difference in ME2 tho. I know they couldn’t have it hugely different. Regardless of what you picked the game still needs to follow the same basic plot and having a whole lot of different versions of things based of choices from ME1 takes allot of work but it’s still disappointing.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 23 octobre 2010 - 08:38 .

[preator]

This is definitely a fun choice to make; one of the best in the game (second only to bringing back the Zer*ahem Rachni, imho).



My first play-through I felt like Manic Sheep, I wasn't digging either dude; both seemed terrible for the job - Udina was a dick to you, and Anderson pulled some crazy Renegade Treason stuff just so you could go on your wild goose chase to Ilos. I was also put off by the coloring of Udina as your personal enemy, and Anderson as your personal friend; so when you start considering the choice from a personal perspective, you wanna put in your buddy, not that other dude who could turn on you in a flash.



But to dig a little deeper, there's 2 ways to look at this choice:



1. The central conflict I saw in the game (besides organics vs. synth of course) was you being a "Human Nationalist" of sorts or being a goody-goody UN "let's all get along" type. So from that point, Udina represents the pro-human, and Anderson the pro-UN.



2. Like it has been said here before, Politics is about compromise, so I see Udina as a great choice as a council member because he wouldn't get pushed over playing the political game, whereas Anderson is more underhanded (again, look what he did to let you chase Saren) and would probably either get shut out, or do something stupid.

Though if it's an all-human council, it's presumed the goal would be maintaining Human dominance, most likely through strong-arming - I don't see the other races staying passive forever, with their superior numbers and larger economies. Though the odds of the Humans maintaining that strong-arm position seem heavily stacked against them, it would probably help to have the general as chairman to pursue human military dominance - the only faint glimmer of hope in what otherwise looks like a premature power-grab.



I'd dig any thoughts or opinions on all this, and sorry it's probably tl;dr for most...

[Quething]

Honestly, I don't think Udina's that bad a pick in ME1. He's a roadblock to you during the lockdown, yes, but if you look at it from his perspective, he's actually doing the smart thing. There is no proof the Reapers exist, and Shepard is acting, frankly, kind of unstable about the whole thing from an outside perspective. Proving that humanity is willing to play along with the Council by distancing the Alliance from her apparent crazy is an important gesture, and surprisingly diplomatic and concession-y from the aggressive Udina. Shepard can even tell Ashley as much during the scene before Ilos. And prior to the lockdown, Udina is abrasive but absolutely on your side. He gives you leads on Saren, he fights for you with the Council. He apologizes for being shirty with you about Tali and Therum. He's very reasonable in the epilogue, too, asking your opinion and conceding your point if you nominate Anderson. I mean, I still only have one Shep who picked him, but I can see reasons to do it based on ME1 alone.



In ME2 he's just an obstructive ass for the sake of being one, apparently; he's arbitrarily cruel to Anderson, he's arbitrarily contemptuous of you, and he's flat-out bad at his job. They seem to have decided he's going to be a flat antagonist now, and it makes me sad. (I feel the same way about the Council; in ME1 they're actually quite reasonable and helpful with you, if you go mostly neutral and paragon. Well, not Velarn, but Tevos will actually tell him to shut it when he gets belligerent with you, so it's not like they're this monolithic enemy force. Then in ME2 they're actively antagonistic and Tevos herself straight-up threatens you with execution. It's really dumb.)

[All-a-Mort]

Usually I pick Anderson, but this time I shall pick Udina and see if it makes any real difference in ME3. For role playing purposes, I'd prefer Udina as the political leader so that David Anderson is available in a military role for the alliance in the war against the Reapers to come (as come it surely must). Anderson's a hardcore special forces soldier and briefly the first human spectre. He will be needed on front lines not sat behind a desk trading words with beaurocrats.

[GracefulChicken]

I almost always pick Udina. Hes a politician. He knows the tricks, even if you dont agree with what he's done so far. Also, i want to see humans in a place of ultimate power in the ME universe. Anderson made it clear he doesnt want that job, and would hate it if you picked him. Udina wants the power, wants to further humanity, and wants, ultimately, what I want even if he screwed me up a couple times. Anderson is a soldier, and I dont want a soldier deciding whats best for humanity in this case. Udina knows the ins and outs of this political system, and he isnt a push-over. Anderson more than once lets the council shoot his ideas down, and he just takes the attitude of "oh well, theyre the council. Nothing we can do about it," whereas Udina at least gives the Council some sass when he doesnt get his way. He lets the Council know he thinks theyre wrong, and sticks up for his viewpoints and strategys. He's got more backbone than Anderson when it comes to politics, and thats what this is all about. Shepard has shown he/she can do things without the Councils help anyways, so you may as well put someone who knows what theyre doing in power to represent humanity. Anderson, in my eyes, just isnt that person. He may have a better set of morals, but that doesnt go very far in the world of politics. Knowing how to get your way does, and Udina is capable of that. Thats why I pick Udina.

[Jarek_Cousland]

I picked Anderson, I'll always pick Anderson even if I do a Renegade PT.





Udina's a ass I wish we had the option to pistol Jockey him upside his snide overly-agressive inadequate head.

[Praetor Knight]

The way I think about this decision, so long as it's my choice, is that regardless of their backgrounds I pick Anderson because he does not want to be Councilor, a la George Washington, as ShrinkingFish mentioned on page one.

So the fact that Udina wants that power makes him the worse of two evils if the choice is only between them two.

As such, in ME I have always picked the choice of letting the politicians sort it out and in ME2 Anderson.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

I pick Udina almost every time. He has what it takes to get things done in the council. Also, concerning the Ilos mission, Udina made the correct decision. Look at things from his perspective and see how crazy Shepard would sound. Anderson trusts you rather blindly and acts on it. That is not a trait I want in a galactic leader.

[Dean_the_Young]

Udina's just as willing to push the Citadel fleet into the Terminus as Anderson can claim to be with a human dominated council.



Udina has the better even-hand with politics, rather than relying on an advisor to smooth things up after the fact.



Udina, by all accounts including Anderson's, is good at his job.



Udina doesn't let his personal feelings get in the way of his job.



Udina certainly has the backbone and the willpower to do what few others can, and is willing to stand up to Shepard when he thinks Shepard is wrong.



Udina, in a Human-dominated Council, reigns in the Spectres.





After all this time, that last one still amazes me.

[EffectedByTheMasses]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Udina certainly has the backbone and the willpower to do what few others can, and is willing to stand up to Shepard when he thinks Shepard is wrong.
.

This is my biggest argument for Udina. Most people won't get where I'm coming from but in my head if I were Shepard I would want someone to speak against me, moderate my actions, provide alternatives and a viewpoint from a different personality. After all, Shepard isn't always right. Udina can do this where Anderson can't. 

[Zaalbar]

I've just finished reading MASS EFFECT-Retribution and its a very good book well worth buying, but its implied in the book that Anderson was never a councilor and is simply an admiral, so it would seem that Bioware for what ever reason has decided to canonize who was made councilor which would have to be Udina. So if you follow the ME books and consider them part of your Shepard's universe then the dicision is already made, Anderson is an Admiral not a councilor. But still, in my paragon or renegade playthrough i've always chose Anderson. I don't like Udina, i simply don't trust him so for me there is no reason why i would want to choose Udina as counsilor.

[Dean_the_Young]

Retribution is written from an assumption that Udina was chosen as councilor.



It is not a retcon. If you chose Anderson, the events of Retribution did not occur as depicted (if at all).

[Jedi Master of Orion]

He's the Councilor in one of my 3 completed runs so far. I mostly picked him because my renegade Shepard said "Let the politicians figure it out" and walked away. Since he ended up getting the default speech at the end I just chose him by default, plus I ultimately picked Anderson in the other 2 ones.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 23 novembre 2010 - 01:45 .

[Wilton 94]

In the end i picked Udina for the space on the council. I knew that Udina was a bit of an annoyance, But he is a politician and all politicians are like that, not doing what you want them to do and only listing to what they want to hear but he had the experiance. Besides that Anderson said he did not want to be pushing papers into his retirement and would him joining the council reduce that? no. So overall i picked Udina becase he knew what he was doing and wanted to save Anderson from the political stuff he very much hated.

[Mr Zoat]

Udina locking you down is actually helpful. Remember that Shepard is a spectre and thus not beholden to any authority other than the Council. Udina doesn't have the authority to order him to do anything, but if he hadn't appeared to neutralised Shepard the Council might have made the order. Udina allows Shepard to remain within the letter of the law.

I always pick Anderson. Udina seemed too short tempered.

Modifié par Mr Zoat, 02 décembre 2010 - 07:56 .

[kotor610]

i pick Udina because he's pro-humanity, i also found that in ME2 Anderson a pushover in the council, where Udina is a politician. lastly Anderson made a better admiral than councilor(even if it was a behind the desk kind of job)

[thachugabug]

Udinas a ******, nuff said

[Merchant2006]

Sure, Udina might be an arrogant guy and you'd love to run him over with a dreadnought ship but quite frankly he's the sorta guy who would advance humanity's interests in the citadel politics and while he might enjoy all the riffraff meetings they have, he's a politician and knows how the system works like the back of his hand. Anderson is a military leader who would much rather be seen 'out there in the field' in what he does best & to leave Udina to the political works.



But I guess that's what makes Udina a Renegades choice. Udina thinks of humanity and how to push them forward, heck he's the one who chipped in the idea to replace the council with humanity if you wiped them off in ME1. He's a 'lesser' version of the Illusive Man if you think about it.



But anyhow, according to Retribution, Udina is Councillor and it seems Anderson steps down from his position... so I guess irrespective of the choice perhaps Udina will be the councillor and Anderson an Admiral in ME3? :|?