967 réponses à ce sujet

[elearon1]

You know, though, I don't usually preorder games for the bonuses because, frankly, the bonuses are never really worth it. (Mind you, I have preordered games before, just not because of the bonuses or ever fealt the bonus did that much for me) This time, however, the bonus of an additional character (which will probably end up being available to non-preorder people a couple weeks after launch as a 5 dollar dlc) really got me excited about the preorder bonus. Now, instead of waiting until January or February to preorder, I'll probably preorder it this month. (which gives the company a good idea how many dedicated sales they have this far in advance)

[bjdbwea]

scyphozoa wrote...

so just to clarify, this isn't about voicing an opinion that you feel needs to be represented. this is about you repeating yourself 2-3 times per page.

the opinion is voiced and represented, you can stop anytime you want. because trust me, repeating yourself isn't going to help

Just to clarify, this is called a discussion. That's what forums are also often used for, but of course some people prefer it if only their own opinion gets repeated.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 16 octobre 2010 - 12:15 .

[Sevens]

"For another, you don't know if the content will only be available to people who pre-order nor is it fair to say that the content was purposefully cut from the contents of the game when several BIOWare employees have said on these forums that this company does not work like that. Isn't it even possible to give them some benefit of the doubt? 

(...)
 
In the grand scheme of things, it's not going to effect my life because it's still just a game, a past-time.

Yeah, uh, chances are exceptionally high that someone desperately wants to get fired and says that the content was effectively cut. I can't prove that it was, of course. The burden of proof, however, should be on the developer/publisher. If for no other reason then for practical ones.

Characters and story-driven quests have a considerable risk of being integral. As such and in that respect/sense, they have an inherent tendency of being "cut" when missing.

Oh and the grand scheme is made of little schemes.

[Squeeze the Fish]

bjdbwea wrote...

scyphozoa wrote...

so just to clarify, this isn't about voicing an opinion that you feel needs to be represented. this is about you repeating yourself 2-3 times per page.

the opinion is voiced and represented, you can stop anytime you want. because trust me, repeating yourself isn't going to help

Just to clarify, this is called a discussion. That's what forums are also often used for, but of course some people prefer it if only their own opinion gets repeated.

So how come you haven't "discussed" the solution that several others (myself included) have given you? Pre-order, if you decide you don't like it after hearing more reviews, cancel your pre-order. Or even take the game home w/o opening it, rent it, if you don't like it, send it back (if that would work). Problem solved? You wouldn't be "excluded" in this way and everyone could go back to being friends.

[Dr. wonderful]

Let me see:



A helmet.

Staff (Already got one, thank you very much)

a Cloth map

and some bonus DVDS.



Wow, I'm losing sooooooooooo much content.

[AndrahilAdrian]

Is this a cool special offer and a bonus for the fans sincere enough to preorder the game, or a cynical business strategy that cuts content from the game unless you prove your utter trust in Bioware? It depends. If, as Mr. Gaider claims, this is just extra content, then fine. If, however, it is important to the main plot and the game feels incomplete without it, then not fine. We'll have to wait and see.

[Zanaide]

Sevens wrote...

Yeah, uh, chances are exceptionally high that someone desperately wants to get fired and says that the content was effectively cut. I can't prove that it was, of course. The burden of proof, however, should be on the developer/publisher. If for no other reason then for practical ones.

And what proof would be acceptable that you would believe? Video and photos can be doctored, facility tours could be maneuvered to show you want they want you to see. Maybe send you a copy of the content that has been produced for the game? But how can you even trust that? And how could they trust you not to leak the content? Your word? You don't trust theirs, what incentive do they have to trust you?

[Merced256]

"Extra" content, completed before release isn't really extra... unless its developed with the express intention of marketing as a DLC which; is the very definition of the issue people have always had with DLC. If DLCs come at the expense of the base game's content then its little more than a scam. That is to say the expectation has always been that you develope a game as much as you can before ship. Not say, well its september, time to shut it down till march while we bug/fix and polish.

But you know you could allay all of this by just saying that whether you preorder or not, if you buy new you'll get the extra NPC like ME2. I didn't preorder me2, but i still got zaeed, so why don't you guys do the same thing? Afterall i'm pretty sure overpowered weapons and a soundtrack aren't nearly as important to people as a NPC that was apparently developed side by side with the base game.

As far as preorder and cancel if you don't like what you see, thats a cop out. There are a ton of issues with games that never come out till the community at large has a chance to complete it, which at the least takes a few days after release. Nervermind that places like gamestop have limitations on how long they will hold a preorder, especially if it is a popular game.

Modifié par Merced256, 16 octobre 2010 - 12:47 .

[Dave of Canada]

Merced256 wrote...

"Extra" content, completed before release isn't really extra...

It is when they use a different budget and timetable for it.

[Sevens]

Zanaide wrote...

Sevens wrote...

Yeah, uh, chances are exceptionally high that someone desperately wants to get fired and says that the content was effectively cut. I can't prove that it was, of course. The burden of proof, however, should be on the developer/publisher. If for no other reason then for practical ones.

And what proof would be acceptable that you would believe? Video and photos can be doctored, facility tours could be maneuvered to show you want they want you to see. Maybe send you a copy of the content that has been produced for the game? But how can you even trust that? And how could they trust you not to leak the content? Your word? You don't trust theirs, what incentive do they have to trust you?

Good. So you're saying there's no (way to provide) proof (from/for either side). I agree.

Dave of Canada wrote...

Merced256 wrote...

"Extra" content, completed before release isn't really extra...

It is when they use a different budget and timetable for it.

That's the economic dimension of "extra". There's also the story dimension. Can this content really be isolated, I doubt it.

Modifié par Sevens, 16 octobre 2010 - 12:57 .

[Dave of Canada]

Sevens wrote...

That's the economic dimension of "extra". There's also the story dimension. Can this content really be isolated, I doubt it.

ME2 or DA:O didn't feel empty without Shale or Zaeed. There wasn't this gaping hole of content.

[Dr. wonderful]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Sevens wrote...

That's the economic dimension of "extra". There's also the story dimension. Can this content really be isolated, I doubt it.

ME2 or DA:O didn't feel empty without Shale or Zaeed. There wasn't this gaping hole of content.

Yeah, I went through three playthroughs before getting Shale.

It dosen't add anything.

[Zanaide]

Sevens wrote...

Good. So you're saying there's no (way to provide) proof (from/for either side). I agree.

Yes. BIOWare is evil because you don't believe them. You've changed my mind with your winning argument.

That's the economic dimension of "extra". There's also the story dimension. Can this content really be isolated, I doubt it.

Shale was pretty isolated. Didn't have any impact on my first play-through.

Look. Don't pre-order. You are not going to change BIOWare's decision for pre-ordering incentives. Don't buy any more of their products since you don't agree with their evil and nefarious ways. I'll be over here enjoying the hell out of my game.

[Wicked 702]

An interesting issue and discussion I think. All other factors aside, I can't seem to pick a side. My issue with Bioware is more technical in nature. I wasn't planning on getting DA2 because I was so disappointed in DA1's rampant bugs. With that in mind, this makes it even harder to get behind another Bioware game. The pre-order trick may not work for me...



More information from Bioware needed.

[Bootsykk]

bjdbwea wrote...

And by the way, I am curious about this whole strategy anyway. Surely, if the game is great, there is no need to give away so much content just for pre-ordering it. Surely people would immediately buy the game anyway. So why do you feel the need for such a strong incentive in the first place? This, also, does not make me more confident in the product I am supposed to pre-order.

Sincerely,

An unimportant customer

I'm just going to brush all the other anger under the carpet on this one and focus on the whole concept of a "Collector's Edition"

A Collector's Edition of a game is targeted specifically at loyal customers and fans of that certain company that made it. It usually comes with extra content such as a pretty game case, extra DVDs, maybe a strategy guide, and now, DLC at a cheaper price than if you bought the game and DLC separately.

A Collector's Edition gets you more bang for your buck. You claimed, "Surely, if the game is so great, there is no need to give away so much content just for pre-ordering it. Surely people would immediately buy the game anyway." I think that you may be spending a little too much time being snippy and sarcastic that you didn't realize that Bioware isn't advertising the Special Edition ANYWHERE but their own website. Not to mention that the deal is only up for grabs until January, 2 months before the predicted game release. Games are usually advertised only about a month on TV and websites before being released. By that time, any players that weren't checking for updates on DA2 would have lucked out on their chance to snag a good deal.

Also: why the are you complaining about this in the first place? If you don't like the DLC and thought it was crappy, and only one DLC mission was totally fantabulous, then... why not just wait?
Getting pissy about the possibility of paying for your own cynicism or impulse is really kind of silly.

[Dave of Canada]

Wicked 702 wrote...

An interesting issue and discussion I think. All other factors aside, I can't seem to pick a side. My issue with Bioware is more technical in nature. I wasn't planning on getting DA2 because I was so disappointed in DA1's rampant bugs. With that in mind, this makes it even harder to get behind another Bioware game. The pre-order trick may not work for me...

Pick a middle ground. Slap a 5$ preorder on the game, wait until March and if the early reviews / information overload does nothing to you then cancel it and get your 5$ back. This way you'll have the Collector's Edition available to you should you want the game and lose nothing if you don't want it.

[Wicked 702]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Pick a middle ground. Slap a 5$ preorder on the game, wait until March and if the early reviews / information overload does nothing to you then cancel it and get your 5$ back. This way you'll have the Collector's Edition available to you should you want the game and lose nothing if you don't want it.

Yeah, what I meant is that technical problems like bugs tend to take a little while to be discovered/compiled. I really wanted to have a complete "look" after a month or two after release. If what you mentioned about places like GameStop allowing you a two-week window is fact, that may or may not give me enough time to make my own decision. That's just a personal issue obviously.

Morally, I was also hoping to withhold significant payment to Bioware until the game was tried and true. (Same reason I didn't buy Awakening until after patch 1.04 and until it was 50%+ off.) Again, just a personal choice.

Edit: Obviously, there's still plenty of time to mull the decision over.

Modifié par Wicked 702, 16 octobre 2010 - 01:16 .

[Bobad]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Wicked 702 wrote...

An interesting issue and discussion I think. All other factors aside, I can't seem to pick a side. My issue with Bioware is more technical in nature. I wasn't planning on getting DA2 because I was so disappointed in DA1's rampant bugs. With that in mind, this makes it even harder to get behind another Bioware game. The pre-order trick may not work for me...

Pick a middle ground. Slap a 5$ preorder on the game, wait until March and if the early reviews / information overload does nothing to you then cancel it and get your 5$ back. This way you'll have the Collector's Edition available to you should you want the game and lose nothing if you don't want it.

Outrageous, if people were to do such a thing what would there be to complain about?, oh yeah, consolisation, that sword is too big for my liking and such.

Modifié par Bobad, 16 octobre 2010 - 01:16 .

[Thandal N'Lyman]

Sevens wrote...
That's the economic dimension of "extra". There's also the story dimension. Can this content really be isolated, I doubt it.

Of course it can.  Leliana's Song? Isolated.  Return to Ostagar? Isolated.  Warden's Keep? Isolated.  Golems of Amgarrak?  Isolated.  Witch Hunt?  (presumed to be) Isolated (pending receipt of more evidence from DA2.)

Heck, even DA:A is "isolated". 

So I think the the burden of providing any proof is really on those who claim that "extra" content isn't extra. 
What example from Dragon Age is there of "additonal but non-optional" (required for OTHER content) content?

And regardless of when it's produced, or how it's released, it's EXTRA if it adds to the product but isn't necessary to its operation and function. 

A CD player isn't required in an automobile for it to be a great car, it's an extra.  It costs more than the car without one.  Better ones cost more still.  Sometimes the manufacturer offers an incentive that bundles such "extras" at a lower total cost than at other times.  You can add a CD player aftertwards, but that costs even more.  How is the SE any different?

Modifié par Thandal NLyman, 16 octobre 2010 - 01:24 .

[Kileyan]

Automobile analogies are just bad, just don't do it.



This marketing thing is kind of cheesy. We all know that Bioware is going to work on this game up until the deadline, then tell us feature X or feature Z didn't make it due to dev time. It is a given, happens in every game.



But they did have time to develop bonus content, day one dlc content and likely 4th week DLC content.



Do you not see the problem of trust in what you are paying for?

[Dr. wonderful]

Kileyan wrote...

Do you not see the problem of trust in what you are paying for?

What problem?

[Dave of Canada]

Kileyan wrote...

This marketing thing is kind of cheesy. We all know that Bioware is going to work on this game up until the deadline, then tell us feature X or feature Z didn't make it due to dev time. It is a given, happens in every game.

If you have (for example):
Two rogues.
Two mages.
Two warriors.

... and the DLC adds a third rogue, how is that cut content? I'd understand cut content if you had one rogue and it added a second, however that is not the case.

But they did have time to develop bonus content, day one dlc content and likely 4th week DLC content.

The writers are essentially finished writing for DA2 right now, they start working on the DLC companion now. They write the missions and such. As people finish up with DA2, they handle the DLC afterwards and make the whole thing. DA2 will be finished quite a while before the game offically launches, that's enough time to make and complete said DLC at whatever process it'll be at.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 16 octobre 2010 - 01:37 .

[Sevens]

Zanaide wrote...

Sevens wrote...

Good. So you're saying there's no (way to provide) proof (from/for either side). I agree.

Yes. BIOWare is evil because you don't believe them. You've changed my mind with your winning argument.

That's the economic dimension of "extra". There's also the story dimension. Can this content really be isolated, I doubt it.

Shale was pretty isolated. Didn't have any impact on my first play-through.

Look. Don't pre-order. You are not going to change BIOWare's decision for pre-ordering incentives. Don't buy any more of their products since you don't agree with their evil and nefarious ways. I'll be over here enjoying the hell out of my game.

Calm down. I'm not saying that Bioware is "evil", neither did I do that in the past. As for my "winning argument": it was actually that - in what it covered - there is no winning argument. 

As for content that can be isolated, I'd say Shale can be isolated relatively well. Zaeed is probably the best example (at the moment) as far as characters are concerned. Witch Hunt and Shadow Broker can't be properly isolated, in my opinion. Split: yes, but not isolated. That's essential, integral content. Lelianna's Song -- I would lean more towards can't be isolated all that well but that's specifically because it defines the personality of a prominent character. 

[Kileyan]

Dave of Canada wrote...


If you have (for example):
Two rogues.
Two mages.
Two warriors.

... and the DLC adds a third rogue, how is that cut content? I'd understand cut content if you had one rogue and it added a second, however that is not the case.

What does this have to do with a 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 100th rogue? It is about a unique character with voice, personaity and hopefully fun addition and purpose in the main game. I would expect no less of Bioware.

I suppose if my only judgement on DLC was an equal number of every class present your argument might make sense. But I really don't care if there are an equal number of each class, I am not sure what the purpose of your list was or assuming that someone would want DLC just to equal out the class choices, again I have no clue what you are getting at.

edited: This DLC thing is gonna take some getting used to by customer and developers. I really don't think Bioware are evil corporate scumbags out to get us. I just think they are new at this changing game expectation for DLC, and it will take a while for both sides to get comfortable with how they deal with it.

Modifié par Kileyan, 16 octobre 2010 - 01:54 .