967 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Kileyan wrote...

But they did have time to develop bonus content, day one dlc content and likely 4th week DLC content.

Let me try this analogy (it comes from a friend of mine).

Writing software is like trying to fit a square peg into a cylindrical container. Most of the time you're just saving away at the peg. Even if you're done, if someone messes with your container, you have to start all over again.

Video-games tend to be modular. Features are designed and continously added to the current build. If something is included in the retail build, then it has to be bug-tested in conjuction with everything else. There is a lot of QA involved.

For DLC, you can have another team just go off and make the content in isolation. Once they're done and the game has gone gold, then you can try and fit the round peg into the container. Since the DLC is digital only, you can essentially work on it until release, which is potentially an extra month of work (since a game's build is locked down quite a while prior to street date).

If for whatever reason, there is some disaster and you cannot have the DLC implemented right - no biggie. Just take another week. You're not delaying anything. People that got the free activation code will still get the free content. People that will buy the DLC can buy it when it's out.

In contrast if this was some plot area (say, the bigger area of prothean ruins of Theron we can't see in ME1) that had to go into the actual build and it was just buggy as hell and wouldn't work, it would need to get cut because otherwise the game would not be able to ship.

Developing DLC can be done simulatenously with the "core" game without actually being part of the core game. Realizing this requires understanding that programming is not so much magic as it is like getting a violent beating.

[AlanC9]

This whole debate has always struck me as utterly bizarre. Any CRPG ever has had content cut prior to shipping. Sometimes there's enough left so modders can add an approximation of it back, often there isn't. DLC means you have a chance of getting that content. How is this bad?



Alternatively, there's day 1 DLC that the developer always planned to make as DLC. Some folks seem to have the idea that if the concept of DLC didn't exist, then that content would have been made anyway as part of the main game. There's never any actual reason given for this assumption. I can't figure out why it's being made. Can someone explain?

[In Exile]

AlanC9 wrote...

Alternatively, there's day 1 DLC that the developer always planned to make as DLC. Some folks seem to have the idea that if the concept of DLC didn't exist, then that content would have been made anyway as part of the main game. There's never any actual reason given for this assumption. I can't figure out why it's being made. Can someone explain?

Basically, I think this is the issue:

People think making a game is a gestalt process - basically that you're just building one whole entity. To get day one DLC, to them, the only possible option is to remove something that was already in the game.

This contrasts with what the design is like, i.e. modular and cummulative, where each part is made separately and added toghether.

tl;dr people assume day 1 DLC means content made for the game that was actively removed instead of extra content developed entirely on the side start to finish

[Sir JK]

AlanC9 wrote...

This whole debate has always struck me as utterly bizarre. Any CRPG ever has had content cut prior to shipping. Sometimes there's enough left so modders can add an approximation of it back, often there isn't. DLC means you have a chance of getting that content. How is this bad?

Alternatively, there's day 1 DLC that the developer always planned to make as DLC. Some folks seem to have the idea that if the concept of DLC didn't exist, then that content would have been made anyway as part of the main game. There's never any actual reason given for this assumption. I can't figure out why it's being made. Can someone explain?

I agree completely. My guess why some people assume that it'd be in the game if it wasn't "moved to DLC" (a more correct term would be salvaged by, I think) is because they simply don't understand the process of creating a game and have somehow gotten the idea that it's easier, less timeconsuming, cheaper and whatnot than what it really is.

[Pocketgb]

AlanC9 wrote...
Alternatively, there's day 1 DLC that the developer always planned to make as DLC. Some folks seem to have the idea that if the concept of DLC didn't exist, then that content would have been made anyway as part of the main game. There's never any actual reason given for this assumption. I can't figure out why it's being made. Can someone explain?

People forget that expansion packs exist, and in forgetting that they assume that any additional content a developer makes will be 'free'.

Modifié par Pocketgb, 16 octobre 2010 - 03:10 .

[GithCheater]

I am too lazy to read 14 pages on this topic, so someone may have suggested it ...

Wait about 2 years for the DA2 ultimate edition. You will likely get everything in the signature edition, all additional DLC, and all expansion packs for the same price as the original game, and you will not be "forced" to pay extra into "evil corporate coffers".

Modifié par GithCheater, 16 octobre 2010 - 03:26 .

[Paul E Dangerously]

Honestly, I've finished Origins like four times, on a fifth run, and not sure how many incomplete games I've done. I don't mind pre-ordering, especially when it's going to get me the extra content.



I've always thought the fuss over DLC was nitpicky, anyway. If you want to complain about the content/price ratio, go for it. But this whole conspiracy theory/incomplete game/etc thing that just keeps cropping up? Stop.

[Iakus]

GithCheater wrote...

I am too lazy to read 14 pages on this topic, so someone may have suggested it ...

Wait about 2 years for the DA2 ultimate edition. You will likely get everything in the signature edition, all additional DLC, and all expansion packs for the same price as the original game, and you will not be "forced" to pay extra into "evil corporate coffers".

This is actually what I'm planning to do now (though id DAO is any indication, it will only take one year).  I'm a grownup and don't need everything "Nownownow!"  If it's a good game at launch, it'll still be a good game later. 

This deal's actually encouraging me to wait even longer before buying.

[mr_luga]

I LOVE how Valve makes all other companies look like greedy bastards. Haha XD

[Saibh]

mr_luga wrote...

I LOVE how Valve makes all other companies look like greedy bastards. Haha XD

Of course, they're stuck in a rut now. People flipped the hell out when L4D2 was announced because they all thought they were supposed to be getting free content for L4D. If profits ever start to slow down and they need to start charging for some of the things they do, boy are they screwed.

Not that I'm complaining. Yay, Valve!

[GithCheater]

iakus wrote...

GithCheater wrote...

I am too lazy to read 14 pages on this topic, so someone may have suggested it ...

Wait about 2 years for the DA2 ultimate edition. You will likely get everything in the signature edition, all additional DLC, and all expansion packs for the same price as the original game, and you will not be "forced" to pay extra into "evil corporate coffers".

This is actually what I'm planning to do now (though id DAO is any indication, it will only take one year).  I'm a grownup and don't need everything "Nownownow!"  If it's a good game at launch, it'll still be a good game later. 

This deal's actually encouraging me to wait even longer before buying.

A few days ago, I was planning on buying DA2 months after release in March to attempt to obtain DA2 at less than list price. However, yesterday's signature edition anouncement and today's free overnight shipping deal at gamestop.com convinced this snivelling sheep fanboi to preorder a few hours ago.

I hope you have an adequate oxygen tank while you are holding your breath in defiance. DAO was scheduled to be released in March 2009, but delayed 8 months for a simultaneous release with the console editions. You will likely be waiting at least 18 months (but probably 2 years) to get the "ultimate edition" of DA2 on the cheap.

Modifié par GithCheater, 16 octobre 2010 - 04:25 .

[Paul E Dangerously]

mr_luga wrote...

I LOVE how Valve makes all other companies look like greedy bastards. Haha XD

You mean the company that opened a store to do things like charge for hats in TF2?

[Iakus]

GithCheater wrote...

A few days ago, I was planning on buying DA2 months after release in March to attempt to obtain DA2 at less than list price. However, yesterday's signature edition anouncement and today's free overnight shipping deal at gamestop.com convinced this snivelling sheep fanboi to preorder a few hours ago.

I hope you have an adequate oxygen tank while you are holding your breath in defiance. DAO was scheduled to be released in March 2009, but delayed 8 months for a simultaneous release with the console editions. You will likely be waiting at least 18 months (but probably 2 years) to get the "ultimate edition" of DA2 on the cheap.

Not defiance.  Patience. I have other games to keep me occupied.  Other games will come out in the meantime.  It would be great to play DA2 sooner.  But later works too.

i wasn't trying to insult you or anything before.  Sorry if it came off that way.  I'm just expressing disapproval at Bioware trying to make a hard sell to pressure people who want to wait a few days or weeks before buying the game to leap in and preorder months before release.  "Extra" content for a new copy is one thing.  "Extra" content for leaping before you look is not okay, imo

A year ago, I probably would have gone ahead and preordered too.  Bonus goodies or no.  But ME2, plus the new direction DA seems to be taking has me leery.  Can't blame me for being cautious, right?   Well, Bioware can, it seems.

[Blastback]

David Gaider wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...
So since Mr. Gaider did not respond to the actual issue, I guess that's at least confirmation that indeed the additional companion will not be included in any game pre-ordered or bought after January 11th, 2011.

I have no idea what the plan is, so I'm not going to comment on it. You're free to assume whatever you like.

I just find it strange that if we decide to sell extra content, whether it was planned/created before, during or after the development of the main game that you're somehow entitled to that for the same price. But I guess this just goes back to the whole DLC reactionary thing-- everyone has their own subjective means of assigning value to something, so it's best not to wade into the middle of it.

Cheers!

I think that it is in part that some people assume that this isn't extra content, but part of the base game that was cut out and turned into DLC to get people to buy the game at full price, or have to pay seperatly for.  Not saying that that's what Bioware is doing, or even that I think that that is what they are doing, but I think some people do assume this.

[Finnegone]

I find the lack of basic - and I mean fundamental - business sense on these forums astounding. Perhaps I shouldn't - I know many of you are still in high school or college, and are thus able to operate in the world without knowledge of this sort of thing (and I don't fault you for that one bit).



But if you're over the age of 25, say - and that's being generous, I think - and still in the mindset that EA (and, by extension, BW) exist to serve your interests, and thus deliver unto you the maximum amount of material for the lowest price possible, then please (and I'm serious) help me understand how you've managed to survive for so long in this world - I envy your naivete.



EA is a publicly traded company. It has a vested interest in demonstrating strong pre-sales for highly anticipated titles like Dragon Age 2 - this is one of the few fundamental metrics that the investment community has to evaluate the relative success of a product launch in this industry (other than your normal financial statements, which all lag well behind the launch itself), and thus determine whether or not to buy EA stock. From a business perspective, pre-sales have the additional (and more important) benefit of enabling a company to forecast its total revenues, and thus help them manage their overall supply chain (procure, build, package, ship, etc). This helps them reduce costs. Reducing costs means higher profits, and higher profits means greater investor confidence. Need I go on?



This is not to say that EA/BW is in the business of cheating the consumer out of content in order to increase profit - that would be a very poor strategy, which would reduce investor confidence, reduce share price, and so on. So these rather bizarre claims that this additional character is content cut from the game (and thus, presumably, critical to the overall narrative) and added in as DLC is, quite frankly, very silly. While I understand the roots of said skepticism, if a company were to do something like that (which would, by the way, be blatantly obvious after purchasing the game), they would alienate a significant portion of their customers - not a good thing.



But they are in the business of developing novel ways to get their customers excited about their products long before they're slated to be released - and to keep that buzz going all the way to the launch date. One of the ways EA and other game publishers can generate strong pre-sales is through promotions. The release of the Signature Edition as an incentive to pre-order is an EXCELLENT idea (I'm speaking as both a consumer and investor here) - as a customer, if you've already decided that you're going to own DA2, you have NOTHING TO LOSE by pre-ordering the game. As an investor, I recognize that this is an aggressive and (based upon the lack of strong performance in EA's portfolio of late) smart way to reach and lock in the core customers.



I know I'm being didactic (tl;dr, yadda yadda). All of this, however, is a long of saying that claims that EA is greedy, or doing fans a disservice, or what-not are ridiculous. I'm not exactly sure what's meant by "greed" in all cases in which it's used, but I hope everyone understands that EA is in the business of making money. That's how our beloved BW developers get paid. That's how they fund massive investments like SWTOR. And that's why they're making a concerted effort at boosting pre-orders and thus investor confidence. And cutting content and re-packaging it as DLC is not a very sound revenue growth strategy.

[Blastback]

Well, I think most of us realize how the world works, but we reserve the right to complain about it. I know that a company exist to make money, that profit is the goal, that it has to be if the company is to survive. Does that mean I have to like it?

[Dr. wonderful]

Just to be sure...what is IN the extra content?

[Dave of Canada]

Dr. wonderful wrote...

Just to be sure...what is IN the extra content?

Four weapons, a soundtrack, an armory or something like that (Don't know what it is) and an extra companion. Though the companion is likely part of EA's project 10 dollar.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 16 octobre 2010 - 05:57 .

[Merced256]

Blastback wrote...

Well, I think most of us realize how the world works, but we reserve the right to complain about it. I know that a company exist to make money, that profit is the goal, that it has to be if the company is to survive. Does that mean I have to like it?

No, you can't. This is why things like unions have never formed. Companies exist to make a profit you see, so the abuse of its employees is also means by which they are able to make more money and thus survive. Its a fundamental of sucessful, and admirable business.

[Phaelducan]

In all fairness, it's absurd to think that the content is "added" just for pre-orders. Of course it's designed for the launch product.



With all due respect to Bioware, it would be better from a public relations perspective to just call it what it is. The signature edition is designed to encourage people to buy the game new, as it means more dollars for the bottom line of the company.



Now... I fully support that and I will pre-order just so I can play the game when it comes out. I will also enjoy and appreciate the "$20 dollars of free content" for what it is... stuff that is part of the actual game and isn't in any conceivable way extra content.



Often times I think the tendency of any corporation is to assume that the people buying their products are idiots, and it's best to disguise marketing ploys as something other then what they are. It's unfortunate, and really isn't needed. Most of us here like Bioware games... and if we won't want to buy the game we won't. This endless discussion about the morality of the issue is juvenile.



Don't want the game? Don't buy it. Don't want to buy full price? Wait until it's available used. Don't want to pay extra money for the "bonus content" later on when you want to upgrade your used copy? Tough, it's Bioware's option to charge more for launch content if you waited to buy used.



Arguing is pointless. Welcome to Capitalism.

[Dr. wonderful]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Dr. wonderful wrote...

Just to be sure...what is IN the extra content?

Four weapons, a soundtrack, an armory or something like that (Don't know what it is) and an extra companion. Though the companion is likely part of EA's project 10 dollar.

...
And people are crying what now?

[Dave of Canada]

Dr. wonderful wrote...

...
And people are crying what now?

Mostly, from what I've gathered, they don't want to preorder before January and feel like Bioware are cutting content to put in the Collector's Edition even though a bunch of people said it's made after the game is done.

[Dr. wonderful]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Dr. wonderful wrote...

...
And people are crying what now?

Mostly, from what I've gathered, they don't want to preorder before January and feel like Bioware are cutting content to put in the Collector's Edition even though a bunch of people said it's made after the game is done.

Then they only got 1 wish left!

Make it count!

[Saibh]

Phaelducan wrote...

In all fairness, it's absurd to think that the content is "added" just for pre-orders. Of course it's designed for the launch product.

With all due respect to Bioware, it would be better from a public relations perspective to just call it what it is. The signature edition is designed to encourage people to buy the game new, as it means more dollars for the bottom line of the company.

Now... I fully support that and I will pre-order just so I can play the game when it comes out. I will also enjoy and appreciate the "$20 dollars of free content" for what it is... stuff that is part of the actual game and isn't in any conceivable way extra content.

Often times I think the tendency of any corporation is to assume that the people buying their products are idiots, and it's best to disguise marketing ploys as something other then what they are. It's unfortunate, and really isn't needed. Most of us here like Bioware games... and if we won't want to buy the game we won't. This endless discussion about the morality of the issue is juvenile.

Don't want the game? Don't buy it. Don't want to buy full price? Wait until it's available used. Don't want to pay extra money for the "bonus content" later on when you want to upgrade your used copy? Tough, it's Bioware's option to charge more for launch content if you waited to buy used.

Arguing is pointless. Welcome to Capitalism.

It's an extra incentive to preorder for those who would not normally.

It is a bonus and reward for those who would have anyway.

You know why it's extra content? Because, if there were no such thing as DLC, this content wouldn't exist. It was developed as extra content. To be sold as extra.

[Finnegone]

Phaelducan wrote...

In all fairness, it's absurd to think that the content is "added" just for pre-orders. Of course it's designed for the launch product.

Indubitably - but that doesn't mean it was cut out of the game. The content is ancillary - that is, not necessary for enjoying the standalone product.

If that proves to be untrue (that is, the game is significantly hindered by not having the additional content) EA/BW will take a big publicity hit. And with EA now scrambling to 1) recover from the MoH debacle, 2) stick to its new objective of releasing fewer, higher quality games, and 3) release SWTOR on time, on budget and working as advertised, I'm pretty sure that (to get back to the original post) they wouldn't release a product that required $20 of DLC to be playable.