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[In Exile]

One thing to consider is that the video-game industry is in a bit of a poor situation right now. Costs of production have gone up dramatically and far outpaced growth in sales. Games sell for 10% more (if that) than several years ago, but cost on the order 10-40 times more to produce. The reasonable economic move would be to make the game more expensive, but the population would just riot; so DLC fees for content like this is a way to essentially increase the price of the game to keep pace with production costs while trying to avoid the psychological feeling of a price hike to most consumers.

[upsettingshorts]

I predict a Bioware rep will come in to this thread and explain it is based on a flawed premise. Well, because if they don't you'd have a point, and I expect you don't.



Still, I've been wrong before and certainly will be again.

[bjdbwea]

Johnson45 wrote...

Hang on... we have to preorder to get this companion now? in the signature edition thread when I was there people were under the impression it would be in the game as a voucher or whatever if you bought it new and not used.

As I said, in that case this thread would of course lose its validity. But if I read the following quote from Mr. Priestly, I can only assume that even the companion will indeed be exclusive to people who pre-order the game:

Chris Priestly wrote...

After January 11, 2011 people will still be able to buy Dragon Age 2, but it will be a standard copy without all the cool free stuff included in the Signature Edition.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 15 octobre 2010 - 01:46 .

[Leonia]

In Exile wrote...

One thing to consider is that the video-game industry is in a bit of a poor situation right now. Costs of production have gone up dramatically and far outpaced growth in sales. Games sell for 10% more (if that) than several years ago, but cost on the order 10-40 times more to produce. The reasonable economic move would be to make the game more expensive, but the population would just riot; so DLC fees for content like this is a way to essentially increase the price of the game to keep pace with production costs while trying to avoid the psychological feeling of a price hike to most consumers.

Yep, very true. Now if only the Aussie game retailers knew that..did you know we spend $120 for a new PC game here, regardless of the exchange rate with the USD? Of course, that money is going to the retailers, not the developers.

As someone who has followed the progress of several MMOs and single-player games over the last few years, I can say with certainty that the market is in a tight position. The average player either doesn't realise this or they choose to ignore the facts.

Modifié par leonia42, 15 octobre 2010 - 01:47 .

[In Exile]

At the same time, I do want to point out that the fact that the cost of production has outpaced sales and the fact that a the industry does neet a price hike does not mean any price hike is reasonable. Moreover, it doesn't mean this particular price hike is reasonable.

That depends on just we think a profit margin a business is entitled too above and beyond the current margin. From my perspective, whatever keeps Bioware producing games is justified because I like their games (within reason) but not everyone sares this PoV.

[Anarya]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I predict a Bioware rep will come in to this thread and explain it is based on a flawed premise. Well, because if they don't you'd have a point, and I expect you don't.

Still, I've been wrong before and certainly will be again.

I wouldn't expect that in this thread. Even if it is the case that this companion will be like Shale and the Cerberus Network and will be included with every new game (which I suspect it is), they still want people to preorder. No point spilling the beans about that until later.

[upsettingshorts]

Anarya wrote...
I wouldn't expect that in this thread. Even if it is the case that this companion will be like Shale and the Cerberus Network and will be included with every new game (which I suspect it is), they still want people to preorder. No point spilling the beans about that until later.

That's a good point.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

This seems to be a trend in the industry, not just Bioware/EA.



Civilization 5 just came out and had offered the Babylonian civ as a preorder bonus. There was no reason they couldn't have included it in the game. It's not yet available as a separate purchase either.

[bjdbwea]

In Exile wrote...

At the same time, I do want to point out that the fact that the cost of production has outpaced sales and the fact that a the industry does neet a price hike does not mean any price hike is reasonable. Moreover, it doesn't mean this particular price hike is reasonable.

That depends on just we think a profit margin a business is entitled too above and beyond the current margin. From my perspective, whatever keeps Bioware producing games is justified because I like their games (within reason) but not everyone sares this PoV.

I would have paid double the price for ME 1. I would have paid double the price for LotSB. I would be willing to buy double the price for a really good DA 2. That is not the issue here. The issue is, how am I supposed to know that the game is any good in the first place, and make the decision to buy it, before it's even released? Punishing (potential) customers for not buying a product before they can even know the quality of said product, is a strategy that should not be tolerated, I think.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 15 octobre 2010 - 01:57 .

[upsettingshorts]

Shinian2 wrote...
Civilization 5 just came out and had offered the Babylonian civ as a preorder bonus. There was no reason they couldn't have included it in the game. It's not yet available as a separate purchase either.

And Paradox Interactive "responded" by adding Babylon - which is completely ahistorical for the time period - to Victoria 2 as a potentially emergent nation as part of a free patch (1.2).  This made me laugh.

- Playable Babylon added as a free DLC integrated in the patch.

...those patch notes are a freaking novel...

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 octobre 2010 - 02:01 .

[Herr Uhl]

Well, I can bide my time before I start raging. The last date for pre-order is January 11:th.



If it turns out to be like Shale before then I wouldn't be bothered about it. I can see why they'd like to hinder 2:nd hand sales.

[UberDuber]

What? Just because someone doesn't pre-order, there not entiled to any of the cool stuff available when you do pre-order? That is total rubbish. It should be available for all! Not that I care or anything... because I won't be pre-ordering DA2 anyway. I just think it's stupid.

[TheConfidenceMan]

bjdbwea wrote...
I would have paid double the price for ME 1. I would have paid double the price for LotSB. I would be willing to buy double the price for a really good DA 2. That is not the issue here. The issue is, how am I supposed to know that the game is any good in the first place, and make the decision to buy it, before it's even released? Punishing (potential) customers for not buying a product before they can even know the quality of said product, is a strategy that should not be tolerated, I think.

So... don't buy it? 

Really the only way for you, as a consumer, to voice your opinion in a way that is at all meaningful to a large corporation like EA is to simply not support their products and spread the word in the hopes that others do the same.

Of course you might as well give up gaming entirely if that's the case, as the collusion between publishers and retailers is only going to get worse and more widespread as they attempt to find more ways to nickel and dime consumers.

[FarplaneGuide]

bjdbwea wrote...

I would have paid double the price for ME 1. I would have paid double the price for LotSB. I would be willing to buy double the price for a really good DA 2. That is not the issue here. The issue is, how am I supposed to know that the game is any good in the first place, and make the decision to buy it, before it's even released? Punishing (potential) customers for not buying a product before they can even know the quality of said product, is a strategy that should not be tolerated, I think.

That's one way to look at it. You could just as easily say they're rewarding players who are willing to take a risk and preorder a game. This additional companion may later be released as dlc, so you're simply getting a reward for your risk. 

[Sir JK]

Shinian2 wrote...

This seems to be a trend in the industry, not just Bioware/EA.

Civilization 5 just came out and had offered the Babylonian civ as a preorder bonus. There was no reason they couldn't have included it in the game. It's not yet available as a separate purchase either.

You forget one crucial thing: Deadlines.
Every game is made with deadlines. At some point you need to stop planning. At some point you need to stop writing. At some point you need to stop drawing. At some point you need to stop coding. At some point you need to stop testing. Every thing is on a clock and not everything they plan will be able to be finished properly so they cut it (often very early).

I did read somewhere that most DLC are made by people that have been freed up by those deadlines and that the content is being developed parallel to the game (but if they tried to put it in the first place they would have to push the deadlines and delay the game). Sometimes finishing earlier than planned.

So an important question for all those wanting to see these "cut contents" in the main game is: how much more would you be prepared to wait and how much more would you be prepared to pay. Because to put it into the game will delay it, and it will make it more expensive.

[Marionetten]

TheConfidenceMan wrote...

Of course you might as well give up gaming entirely if that's the case, as the collusion between publishers and retailers is only going to get worse and more widespread as they attempt to find more ways to nickel and dime consumers.

Which is just going to drive more and more consumers to piracy. Which is eventually going to cause the whole industry to collapse on itself. Unfortunately, publishers are completely blind to this. They refuse to accept that they have any part in the recent increase of piracy. Yet they continue doing **** like this. They continue ****ing the legitimate consumer up the ass.

Maybe we do need a second video game crash.

[Nerevar-as]

Sir JK wrote...

Shinian2 wrote...

This seems to be a trend in the industry, not just Bioware/EA.

Civilization 5 just came out and had offered the Babylonian civ as a preorder bonus. There was no reason they couldn't have included it in the game. It's not yet available as a separate purchase either.

You forget one crucial thing: Deadlines.
Every game is made with deadlines. At some point you need to stop planning. At some point you need to stop writing. At some point you need to stop drawing. At some point you need to stop coding. At some point you need to stop testing. Every thing is on a clock and not everything they plan will be able to be finished properly so they cut it (often very early).

I did read somewhere that most DLC are made by people that have been freed up by those deadlines and that the content is being developed parallel to the game (but if they tried to put it in the first place they would have to push the deadlines and delay the game). Sometimes finishing earlier than planned.

So an important question for all those wanting to see these "cut contents" in the main game is: how much more would you be prepared to wait and how much more would you be prepared to pay. Because to put it into the game will delay it, and it will make it more expensive.

I´d wait as much as necessary for a mostly bug free full game. Why shouldn´t I?  And deadlines? It´s October, DA2 is for March, and they are already out of time for a main party member?

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Marionetten wrote...

fluxcage wrote...

Shale was NOT cut from the game in order to be repackaged as DLC.

Shale was originally intended as part of the base game and not downloadable content. The golem was to be found in Redcliffe Village, along with the Golem Control Rod and Wilhelm's Cottage.

Last I heard, BioWare said they cut Shale because they were short on time.  Your argument is that you have magical information from space that they cut Shale specifically to sell as DLC.

BioWare statements >>>>   Marionetten's Space Knowledge

[Anarya]

Out of time? No. I'd bet that this companion was planned for this from the start.

[Nozybidaj]

Marionetten wrote...

TheConfidenceMan wrote...

Of course you might as well give up gaming entirely if that's the case, as the collusion between publishers and retailers is only going to get worse and more widespread as they attempt to find more ways to nickel and dime consumers.

Which is just going to drive more and more consumers to piracy. Which is eventually going to cause the whole industry to collapse on itself. Unfortunately, publishers are completely blind to this. They refuse to accept that they have any part in the recent increase of piracy. Yet they continue doing **** like this. They continue ****ing the legitimate consumer up the ass.

Maybe we do need a second video game crash.

And thats what it will come to eventually.  They'll either find ways to fight piracy that don't involve bending over your customers like the Music and Movie industries did/are trying to do, or gaming will go down the toilet.  Its already on the fast track there with the crap games they push out these days and trying to nickel and dime every weapon, helmet, and feature they make for a game by making it dlc.

Either they'll figure it out or they won't.

[Marionetten]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Last I heard, BioWare said they cut Shale because they were short on time.  Your argument is that you have magical information from space that they cut Shale specifically to sell as DLC.

BioWare statements >>>>   Marionetten's Space Knowledge

My argument is based on game data. Data accessible to anyone with an Internet connection. There is a wiki for this, you know.

Game data > BioWare PR.

[Leonia]

Well in the defense of the Shale being cut thing.. there are files in the toolset that are evidence to that. That's not to say they maliciously went "Aha, we can make more money, quick, to the bat cave.. repackage Shale as DLC!" either. Most people still got Shale for free.

[bjdbwea]

TheConfidenceMan wrote...

So... don't buy it? 

Really the only way for you, as a consumer, to voice your opinion in a way that is at all meaningful to a large corporation like EA is to simply not support their products and spread the word in the hopes that others do the same.

Of course you might as well give up gaming entirely if that's the case, as the collusion between publishers and retailers is only going to get worse and more widespread as they attempt to find more ways to nickel and dime consumers.

Of course I will not buy the game if the game actually available in a store does not contain at least a code for the additional companion (unless that DLC is not worth the download anyway, in that case it doesn't matter, but that wouldn't exactly speak well about the game either).

When you have to wait for the GotY or "ultimate" or whatever-it's-called edition these days to get the complete game, then I can do that. Has the advantage that by the time, the game should be well patched too.

And to the one who said that it's a reward rather than a punishment: While you can look at it this way, the fact remains that content was developed together with the main game, and then deliberately cut out. So now simply getting the full game as it was supposed to be counts as a reward? Shouldn't that be, like, the norm? Shouldn't the customer get the content that was created, without having to jump through any hoops?

I can understand that they want to combat the used games market. For that, they already included these codes in the DA and ME 2 package, so that you can get DLCs for "free" that you otherwise have to pay for. But the current issue is that they apparently don't even want their customers to read any reviews anymore, and that is one step further.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 15 octobre 2010 - 02:34 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Marionetten wrote...

Lady light doorbell wrote...

What makes this different? Nothing.

It is only different in being even more shameless. Sometimes I wonder how much gamers will tolerate.

Whatever wrings more tears from you. 


Did BioWare cut things from the game to give to me as a treat for giving them extra money?  Why would they?  Why not design a few things from the get go that are intended to be neat toys for people who support the game more than others?  They've known they were going to do a super-dupah edition from day one. 

BioWare has more than enough brains to plan a few extra items ahead of time.  And the extra brains, they eat.