967 réponses à ce sujet

[Daerog]

Dave of Canada wrote...

AdamNW wrote...

Besides, [INSERT BIOWARE DEV] already said that the stuff they are releasing wouldn't be in the game otherwise.  This is the only way we are going to get the content.

You took that WAY out of context. He was talking about how DLC is the only way we'd have Shale and such, he wasn't saying this character is signature edition only.

When he said "this is the only way..." I think he meant DLC and not only Signature. But I can see how someone will think he meant Signature.
I could be wrong though and Adam could have meant Signature or w/e.

[AdamNW]

Dave of Canada wrote...

AdamNW wrote...

Besides, [INSERT BIOWARE DEV] already said that the stuff they are releasing wouldn't be in the game otherwise.  This is the only way we are going to get the content.

You took that WAY out of context. He was talking about how DLC is the only way we'd have Shale and such, he wasn't saying this character is signature edition only.

I like how you took my post out of context, then told me I took another post out of context.

I was talking about DLC in general.

Modifié par AdamNW, 18 octobre 2010 - 03:58 .

[Dave of Canada]

AdamNW wrote...

I like how you took my post out of context, then told me I took another post out of context.

I apologize. I suspected you were speaking of the Signature edition being the only way with Gaider's post as evidence.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Well there is only one way to rock



(speaking of out of context)

[AdamNW]

Dave of Canada wrote...

AdamNW wrote...

I like how you took my post out of context, then told me I took another post out of context.

I apologize. I suspected you were speaking of the Signature edition being the only way with Gaider's post as evidence.

It's alright.  I probably could have worded the post better :U

[Doyle41]

Probably, but I would assume you would need to buy a few DLC's also. Then you will get the complete game.

[Solid N7]

bjdbwea wrote...

Dear BioWare and EA,

after the disappointment with ME 2, I will not pre-order any of your games again in the foreseeable future (but I usually don't pre-order games anyway these days). LotSB was amazing, but it doesn't have restored my faith in your company yet. Especially not in DA 2 obviously, which seems to contain a lot of important changes that I don't like (and the DA DLCs were also far from being as good as LotSB). So I will have to wait and read some credible reviews of your games, most importantly reviews from people who paid for the game, not from people who were paid to play it. Of course I would still be willing to buy the game shortly after release, if your promises turn out to be true.

But do you want to know what announcements like this "signature edition" do? No, they do not increase the chance of me pre-ordering the game. Instead, this even decreases the chance of me buying the game when it's released. Because I will not accept to get some content - content that was ready and finished on release day, and content that's not just an armor or weapon, but actual gameplay content - cut out of my game, just because I maintain my right to wait and see before I buy a product. So even if the game is really good, I might just wait until the price has dropped enough to outweigh the costs to buy this cut content as a DLC. Or I might just wait for the inevitable "ultimate" edition (or however it'll be called) that finally contains the full game.

And by the way, I am curious about this whole strategy anyway. Surely, if the game is great, there is no need to give away so much content just for pre-ordering it. Surely people would immediately buy the game anyway. So why do you feel the need for such a strong incentive in the first place? This, also, does not make me more confident in the product I am supposed to pre-order.

I hope you don't feel the need to close this thread, because I think this issue goes beyond a particular game. The main question is, how much are the customers willing to accept until they say "enough"? I don't mind the armors and weapons as a bonus. Especially not if mods can easily add tons of that stuff to the game anyway. I also don't mind DLCs that are developed and sold after release. But cutting a whole companion out of the game, and then only giving that "for free" to people who agree to buy the cat in the bag, that goes too far. What's next, I wonder.

Sincerely,

An unimportant customer

Modifié par Solid N7, 18 octobre 2010 - 06:37 .

[Sable Phoenix]

Mr. Gaider (or any other BioWarian), I don't think you're getting the point. The point isn't that the character is available as a DLC. Shale was available as a DLC, and nobody had a problem with her. But unlike Shale, this character is only available for free download via preorder, regardless of whether you have a retail registration code or not. Shale only required a retail code. This is like kicking the people who are leery of the changes to the game because they want to wait and make an informed decision.

I completely agree with the OP's feelings on this matter.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 18 octobre 2010 - 06:39 .

[Morroian]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

Mr. Gaider (or any other BioWarian), I don't think you're getting the point. The point isn't that the character is available as a DLC. Shale was available as a DLC, and nobody had a problem with her. But unlike Shale, this character is only available for free download via preorder, regardless of whether you have a retail registration code or not. Shale only required a retail code. This is like kicking the people who are leery of the changes to the game because they want to wait and make an informed decision.

So pre-order then if you decide you don't want to buy it later cancel the pre-order. The fact is its free if you pre-order, it costs you nothing yet BW are still lambasted for it. Its not like Shale in that Shale was intended to be in the game from the start.

[Sir JK]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

Mr. Gaider (or any other BioWarian), I don't think you're getting the point. The point isn't that the character is available as a DLC. Shale was available as a DLC, and nobody had a problem with her. But unlike Shale, this character is only available for free download via preorder, regardless of whether you have a retail registration code or not. Shale only required a retail code. This is like kicking the people who are leery of the changes to the game because they want to wait and make an informed decision.

I completely agree with the OP's feelings on this matter.

Preorders are very valuable though. It shows the market that there is a demand for the game prior to launch. The more preorders the more valuable the game becomes to retailers, which will make them advertise it more, stock more copies (which is to say buy more copies), give it more shelf space and will make the game stay on the front shelves longer. In some ways preorders will be much more valuable than post-release customers.

So Bioware wants people to preorder, since it will improve the game's success. They have a good repuation that will help them, and will be doing some extensive marketing the next few months as well. But to those that hesitate they are also offering this character, at no extra cost, not because they don't want you to do research but as an extra incentive. A "if you trust us to give you a good game, we're willing to thank you with this bonus character" if you will.
They are asking you as a customer to make a choice yes: do you think the game and the bonus character will be worth it to preorder or do you not think it is worth it (yet)? They are willing to wait for you to answer, but not forever. After a certain point it won't really matter if you preorder or not (this point is Jan 11), after that your choice is not worth that extra character anymore. You decided that you did not trust Bioware to give you a good enough game.

Which is perfectly fine. It is definantely everyone should think hard about and choose for themselves. Nothing wrong at all with that. If you don't think the bonus character is worth a bit of risk that's absolutely the right choice for you. The preorder character will probably become available later at a price.

The problem I think is that people aren't sure if the character is worth it (or the game for that matter). So they don't want risk paying for it. And if they would take up the promotional offer that problem would be solved... but they're not sure about the game. Thus far it's insufficient information. But if they wait they feel they might miss the chance of a free character...  So instead of being a reward for risking trusting Bioware, it becomes a trick to lure money off them. Clearly they deserve this free content... the fact that it isn't really free content (it is in fact paid for by the advantages of a high pre-release demand) is irrelevant.

People want it. For free. On their terms. Regardless of what that means to Bioware or EA
I personally wouldn't mind free stuff, but I think that demand is a bit unrealistic.

Apologies if anyone feel labelled or otherwise offended by this post. It was not my intent.

Modifié par Sir JK, 18 octobre 2010 - 07:27 .

[Taura-Tierno]

I always assumed that if Shale would have been included in the game on the disc, and not as a DLC, the original game would have had a later release date, because they couldn't have worked on it after they had finished the original game. So it was a nice bonus. As would anything be that's included as free DLC.



I don't really see anything wrong with rewarding pre-ordering. I've pre-ordered it, and I it's quite an incentive. I don't see anything wrong with that.



As for DLC in general, well ... some of them were worth the money, some weren't. Just like some games for 40$ could either be worth it or be a complete waste of money.

[Wittand25]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

Mr. Gaider (or any other BioWarian), I don't think you're getting the point. The point isn't that the character is available as a DLC. Shale was available as a DLC, and nobody had a problem with her. But unlike Shale, this character is only available for free download via preorder, regardless of whether you have a retail registration code or not. Shale only required a retail code. This is like kicking the people who are leery of the changes to the game because they want to wait and make an informed decision.

I completely agree with the OP's feelings on this matter.

The character is not marketed as exclusive to the preorder edition, the weapons are. the character is only described as bonus not as exlusive bonus. Also the game is published by EA and if you look at their past history you will notice how first all bonus content  is only mentioned for the CE editions of their games, while the free bonus for the regular edition is only mentioned shortly before the game goes into retail. i know for certain that this was the case with The Sims3, DA:O and ME2. So i am pretty certain that every copy will get the NPC, but the weapons will be only for the SE. Maybe for later preorders there will be one out of the four as bonus depending on retailer, but I would not count on it.

[dan107]

bjdbwea wrote...
And by the way, I am curious about this whole strategy anyway. Surely, if the game is great, there is no need to give away so much content just for pre-ordering it. Surely people would immediately buy the game anyway. So why do you feel the need for such a strong incentive in the first place? This, also, does not make me more confident in the product I am supposed to pre-order.

This. Whatever happened to just making a good product, charging a fair price for it, and letting it sell on its own merits? All these used car dealership sales gimmicks seem to be everywhere these days, and unless you have the business acumen of Homer Simpson, they should make you less likely to buy the product, not more.

[bjdbwea]

Eleventhchild wrote...

I dont think it occured to the OP that maybe, the bonus character and items, are rewards FOR preordering. plus the fact that they are relying on the gamers who bought DRO to buy it. as it was a success.which leads back to my point, of it being a reward as they said on the dragon age 2, signature edition FAQ

"8. This seems too good to be true, what's the catch?"

"No catch, we just want to reward our most loyal fans and present them with this special version as a "thank you" for being an early adopter."

for those too lzy http://dragonage.bio...da2/info/order/

the faq is to the left of the "pre order now" bit.

And maybe it hasn't occurred to you yet that this might be, you know, the usual spin to sell a decision that was made for a whole different reason. If BioWare would really want to reward their loyal fans, they wouldn't exclude those loyal fans who, despite being loyal fans, still want to make an informed decision about a potential purchase. But apparently, buying a game for the full price shortly after release, even with the knowledge that it will be available for about half the price just a few months later, does not count as being loyal these days. Apparently, even buying a product on release day, doesn't count as being an early adopter either.

If they wanted to reward fans who buy the game for the full price, that would be somewhat understandable. For example, if each copy sold during the first months contained a code to download at least the additional character and the missions, and once the price had been reduced, you would have to purchase that content additionally, that would be a whole different matter. In that case, the argument of "rewarding loyal fans" would be valid. But as it is right now, it's simply a reward for buying the cat in the bag, and indeed it makes me wonder why they would even think that's necessary.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 18 octobre 2010 - 12:16 .

[upsettingshorts]

Fair warning, this post is entirely on the subject of semantics.  But since I believe the issues bjdbwea is raising are based entirely on semantics and interpretation of language, I figure it's fair game:

bjdbwea wrote...
If BioWare would really want to reward their loyal fans, they wouldn't exclude those loyal fans who, despite being loyal fans, still want to make an informed decision about a potential purchase.

That's not what loyalty really is.  Loyalty in this context implies consumer faith that the product will be satisfactory.  Bioware's incentive for early adopters is a reward for that faith.  It is a reward for trust, not a gift for people who have self-styled themselves as loyal through a broadly liberal interpretation of what the term actually means.

Loyalty must be demonstrated through action, not donned like a cap.

bjdbwea wrote...
But apparently, buying a game for the full price shortly after release, even with the knowledge that it will be available for about half the price just a few months later, does not count as being loyal these days. Apparently, even buying a product on release day, doesn't count as being an early adopter either.

That makes you a likely repeat customer, not a loyal one.  The key difference in this instance, as I pointed out, is faith. 

Of course the downside of making a potential purchase based - at least in part - on faith is the potential for being disappointed.  Therefore EA/Bioware offers an incentive to make the offer more appealing.

bjdbwea wrote...
But as it is right now, it's simply a reward for buying the cat in the bag, and indeed it makes me wonder why they would even think that's necessary.

They probably aren't assuming that this incentive would lead people to indulge into conspiracy theories.  The reward is exactly what they say it is: Early adoption by loyal fans. 

Dispute my definition or the of the implications of loyalty if you wish, but my understanding of it not only explains EA/Bioware's language, it doesn't make the introduction of conspiracy theories or anti-capitalist rhetoric necessary to do so.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 octobre 2010 - 12:34 .

[MDarwin]

Sable Phoenix wrote ...
Mr. Gaider (or any other BioWarian), I don't think you're getting the
point. The point isn't that the character is available as a DLC. Shale
was available as a DLC, and nobody had a problem with her. But unlike
Shale, this character is only available for free download via preorder,
regardless of whether you have a retail registration code or not. Shale
only required a retail code. This is like kicking the people who are
leery of the changes to the game because they want to wait and make an
informed decision.

I completely agree with the OP's feelings on this matter.

Same here.  And for what? DAO quality DLC? No, thank you.  

Modifié par MDarwin, 18 octobre 2010 - 12:40 .

[upsettingshorts]

Sable Phoenix wrote...
This is like kicking the people who are leery of the changes to the game because they want to wait and make an informed decision.

I completely agree with the OP's feelings on this matter.

What's interesting is that you're on to the right idea, but doing a great job of demonstrating what a loyal customer is by showing what they are not.

Through this offer, EA/Bioware is asking the people - especially ones who are leery - to trust them, and rewarding those who place their trust in them through a preorder with bonus content.

Those who are hesitant can still wait and see, of course.   But by implication that means they do not trust that DA:2 will be a satisfactory game, and thus cannot legitimately identify themselves as belonging to the group the offer is targeted at rewarding in the first place.

Loyalty requires trust. 

Once the game is released and you have objective means through which to evaluate it, whether or not you purchase the game has no further bearing on your personal loyalty to Bioware as the transaction had nothing to do with trust whatsoever, but on evaluation of facts when compared with your personal taste.  It's entirely possible for someone to have bought every single Bioware game ever made this way and liked every one, but if that customer never determines that they can trust Bioware's next game to be satisfactory, they have never been loyal.

It is not an insult to say someone is not a loyal customer, nor is it meant to be, it is simply an observation based on what loyalty actually means.  It does not make your opinion worthless, or that you're somehow not in on some cool exclusive club.  It just means that if your hesitance over DA:2 is greater than your trust in Bioware's ability to deliver a satisfactory game, then the offer is not meant for you.

...anyway, that's the end of this particular two-part semantic rant.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 octobre 2010 - 12:51 .

[crimzontearz]

This thread is somewhat useless, as much as I agree with the OP. It is useless because if Bioware even agreed with the OP they not only would not have the power to change anything but also they would not be able to express with her here.



To top ti off back when DAO came out and there was that huge deal about Shale on the boards a dev (won't say who....but you can search the thread in the whole forum) pretty much said that what they do in terms of cutting content and using it as preorder/new copy bait regardless of the budget/team involved is NONE of our business. Furthermore he said he would be the first one to be VERY excited and willing to fork the cash if HIS favorite game serie started coming out with lots of paid day 1 dlc.......

[bjdbwea]

crimzontearz wrote...

This thread is somewhat useless, as much as I agree with the OP. It is useless because if Bioware even agreed with the OP they not only would not have the power to change anything but also they would not be able to express with her here.

True enough, especially that of course a developer couldn't openly voice disagreement even if he wanted to. But they obviously do read the forums, and if a thread would show that enough potential customers disagree with something, then that might make a difference. Admittedly, this thread will most likely not. Not because the same few people continue to defend BioWare/EA against any criticism, but because the number of people who care about this matter seems not very large to begin with.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 18 octobre 2010 - 01:27 .

[crimzontearz]

Yes they read the forums......they did read them when the whole Shale thing happened....yet here we are again with the same situation in our hands if not worse.

What does that tell you?

[bjdbwea]

That not enough people cared enough to voice complaints, maybe in part because there were always a few posters telling them to be good customers and just accept whatever the publisher dictates? But I don't know what people complained about back then as far as Shale was concerned. The idea to combat the used games market is at least somewhat understandable. The current issue is much more questionable.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 18 octobre 2010 - 02:04 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

crimzontearz wrote...

Yes they read the forums......they did read them when the whole Shale thing happened....yet here we are again with the same situation in our hands if not worse.
What does that tell you?

It says that two dozen people crying loudly have correctly been balanced against 999,988 other people smirking at you and going back to playing the game.





Edit:   Yeah, I sporked the math, but I'm not correcting it.  Lets pretend DAO sold 1,000,012 copies.   

Modifié par RinpocheSchnozberry, 18 octobre 2010 - 03:43 .

[FellowerOfOdin]

The number of people required to actually make EA change stuff would be incredibly high - high enough to threaten the game's financial success. I guess we all can agree that this alone will not happen. Furthermore, the people who post here at the forums will most likely buy the game anyway as they post here because they loved the first game. So take the people posting in a thread, deduct the people who will buy the game anyway (which is a good percentage) and you get a very small group of people that hardly matters sales-wise.



I highly doubt that the decision is up to Bioware, I'd rather say that it's up to EA - and we all know EA's customer policy. I am sure that the game will be good because it's Bioware who's mostly responsible for the content, yet I am also afraid at the same time seeing that we got so little info and as of now have seen a console version that is far away from the Dragon Age combat.



We all have mixed feelings as of now, but we all have to face the fact that EA is not a public company who can care for very small minorities.



I fully agree that having a huge community feedback with tons and tons of players would be awesome, but: it won't happen.



DA 2 will be great, I will wait for a few reviews before buying it though.

[Snelle Jaap]

Aye i don't like it

But there seems to be no option in this mater.

If you get it now you have no clue if its the game you want because there in no info for it or pc specs or anything so its a blind buy... no thanks did that one's and not again
Or wait for it to and pay some more.. NICE really slick

Modifié par Snelle Jaap, 18 octobre 2010 - 02:08 .

[Wittand25]

bjdbwea wrote...

That not enough people cared enough to voice complaints, maybe in part because there were always a few posters telling them to be good customers and just accept whatever the publisher dictates? But I don't know what people complained about back then as far as Shale was concerned. The idea to combat the used games market is at least somewhat understandable. The current issue is much more questionable.

Yes but you have to argue with the marketing department of EA about that. They always market day one DLC like it is only part of the CE even if it is universally available to every new copy sold. And the NPC will be universal or at least purchasable, a DLC companion is way to big and expansive for a fluffy exclusive preorder bonus. I already mentioned several examples of this behaviour in the past by EA and the fact that nowhere on the DA2 site the NPC gets described as exclusive.