967 réponses à ce sujet

[Meltemph]

This just in, calculated risk, specially for a company who has always delivered good games for you, is now, "blind faith" if you pre-order based on expectations... Holy drama queen batman! Call the press...

God forbid a company decides to give early preorders extra crap, since someone declared that they should not, based on "rules" that they believe every game company should live by. Experts in the marketing field I tell ya!

Believe it or not, all these "blind faith consumers", are taking calculated risks because they believe BW is going to deliver a quality game. Crazy to think right, almost blasphemy?!

How can such morons expect bioware to make another good game? I mean what do they have to go by? BG series, NWN, Jade Empire, Kotor series, ME series, DAO, MDK2? Please! That definitely is not enough to go by for people to make calculated risks, with expectations of a good game from them!

Modifié par Meltemph, 18 octobre 2010 - 05:00 .

[Erode_The_Soul]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Erode_The_Soul wrote...

I just don't understand why a pre-order is the deciding factor in determining whether one is a loyal customer or not. I mean, a customer more willing to buy a game before doing research on it is no more loyal than a customer who buys the game after doing research. One is just more ballsy than the other. but both bought the game and are thus both loyal to the company.

You can want to wait for the game but still preorder it.

1) Preorder it.
2) Wait until March, read the early reviews and previews.
3A) Buy the game, get the Signature Edition.
OR
3B) Cancel preorder. Lose nothing.

Yes, you can do that. And that's a great option, no doubt (provided your Gamestop is cooperative about pre-order transfers) However, if this whole kerfuffle is taken at face value (preorderers = the most loyal) then Bioware has determined someone who pre-orders then cancels is more loyal than someone who researches then purchases.

It just seems like such an arbitrary way to determine who is loyal *shrug*


EDIT:

Meltemph wrote...

This just in, calculated risk, specially
for a company who has always delivered good games for you, is now,
"blind faith" if you pre-order based on expectations... Holy drama
queen batman! Call the press...

God forbid a company decides to
give early preorders extra crap, since someone declared that they should
not, based on "rules" that they believe every game company should live
by. Experts in the marketing field I tell ya!

Believe it or
not, all these "blind faith consumers", are taking calculated risks
because they believe BW is going to deliver a quality game. Crazy to
think right, almost blasphemy?!

How can such morons expect
bioware to make another good game? I mean what do they have to go by?
BG series, NWN, Jade Empire, Kotor series, ME series, DAO, MDK2?
Please! That definitely is not enough to go by, for people to make
calculated risks, with expectations of a good game from them!

I don't know if this was just a general statement or directed at someone, but I would like to clarify a bit of my perspective. Were I to go in today and order DA2, I would consider that blind faith; we know very little about the game, so I would be pre-ordering strictly because it is a Bioware game. In my opinion, that's a dangerous habit to get in to. Again, just my opinion.

Modifié par Erode_The_Soul, 18 octobre 2010 - 04:57 .

[bjdbwea]

Maybe someone should make a banner:

"I used to be a loyal fan, now I'm just a common shopper."

[Jimmy Fury]

Erode_The_Soul wrote...
I just don't understand why a pre-order is the deciding factor in determining whether one is a loyal customer or not. I mean, a customer more willing to buy a game before doing research on it is no more loyal than a customer who buys the game after doing research. One is just more ballsy than the other. but both bought the game and are thus both loyal to the company.

Why do people keep trying to force this idea that research and preordering are mutually exclusive? You can do research before the game is released. That's why companies do demos and previews.
You can also cancel a preorder. You can also get a refund on your preorder if you haven't opened it.

It's really not that difficult to preorder and research.

[upsettingshorts]

Erode_The_Soul wrote...

I just don't understand why a pre-order is the deciding factor in determining whether one is a loyal customer or not. I mean, a customer more willing to buy a game before doing research on it is no more loyal than a customer who buys the game after doing research. One is just more ballsy than the other. but both bought the game and are thus both loyal to the company.

If my posts can't explain the logic behind why it is a deciding factor I'm really not sure what will.

A loyal customer has faith based on previous experiences with the company that the next product, of which he has limited knowledge, will be good.   This decision calls for faith and confidence in the ability of a third party to deliver.  That is what loyalty is about, it is something that is maintained through loyal acts.  

A repeat customer will evaluate a company's product and elect to purchase it based on his research.  Such a purchase is not based on trust or faith, but a logical evaluation of the product and how it matches your preferences.  Even if you've bought and enjoyed every game Bioware has ever made after reading reviews. Faith, trust, and indeed loyalty were not part of the decision by definition.

It's not an insult or demeaning to say someone is not a loyal customer.  But loyalty means something different than those up in arms in this thread assume it does.

bjdbwea wrote...

Maybe someone should make a banner:

"I used to be a loyal fan, now I'm just a common shopper."

How about:

"I used to think I was a loyal customer, but then I applied critical thinking skills.  Now I'm just a repeat customer."

On second thought that doesn't sound nearly as catchy.  Still, can't let accuracy get in the way of an agenda. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 octobre 2010 - 05:01 .

[Ulous]

Upsettingshorts wrote...


If my posts can't explain the logic behind why it is a deciding factor I'm really not sure what will.

A loyal customer has faith based on previous experiences with the company that the next product, of which he has limited knowledge, will be good.   This decision calls for faith and confidence in the ability of a third party to deliver.  That is what loyalty is about, it is something that is earned through loyal acts.  

A repeat customer will evaluate a company's product and elect to purchase it based on his research.  Such a purchase is not based on trust or faith, but a logical evaluation of the product and how it matches your preferences.  Even if you've bought and enjoyed every game Bioware has ever made after reading reviews.Faith, trust, and indeed loyalty are not part of the decision.  

It's not an insult or demeaning to say someone is not a loyal customer.  But loyalty means something different than those up in arms in this thread assume it does.

bjdbwea wrote...

Maybe someone should make a banner:

"I used to be a loyal fan, now I'm just a common shopper."

How about:

"I used to think I was a loyal customer, but then I read a dictionary."

Not really, you are merely using the word "loyalty" as what it means to you from what I can tell, I have bought in the past Baldurs Gate, NWN, KOTOR, ME1/ME2, and DAO, if I have bought all those games and don't pre-order DAO 2 does that mean I am not a loyal Bioware customer?

[Erode_The_Soul]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Erode_The_Soul wrote...

I just don't understand why a pre-order is the deciding factor in determining whether one is a loyal customer or not. I mean, a customer more willing to buy a game before doing research on it is no more loyal than a customer who buys the game after doing research. One is just more ballsy than the other. but both bought the game and are thus both loyal to the company.

If my posts can't explain the logic behind why it is a deciding factor I'm really not sure what will.

A loyal customer has faith based on previous experiences with the company that the next product, of which he has limited knowledge, will be good.   This decision calls for faith and confidence in the ability of a third party to deliver.  That is what loyalty is about, it is something that is earned through loyal acts.  

A repeat customer will evaluate a company's product and elect to purchase it based on his research.  Such a purchase is not based on trust or faith, but a logical evaluation of the product and how it matches your preferences.  Even if you've bought and enjoyed every game Bioware has ever made after reading reviews.Faith, trust, and indeed loyalty are not part of the decision.  

It's not an insult or demeaning to say someone is not a loyal customer.  But loyalty means something different than those up in arms in this thread assume it does.

Okay, so my definition of blind faith is basically exactly what your definition of loyalty is. I feel as though both of those definitions are loyal customers, but I can see where opinions would differ on that. I still feel like a loyal customer for having purchased and enjoyed the many Bioware games in my collection, but I suppose based on your definitions I am not. Of course, I'm just fine being a repeat customer based on the two scenarios above, as I feel it's a smarter way to go (not meant as an insult, just a personal preference) so no harm done

Modifié par Erode_The_Soul, 18 octobre 2010 - 05:06 .

[Erode_The_Soul]

Modifié par Erode_The_Soul, 18 octobre 2010 - 05:05 .

[upsettingshorts]

Erode_The_Soul wrote...
Okay, so my definition of blind faith is basically exactly what your definition of loyalty is. I feel as though both of those definitions are loyal customers, but I can see where opinions would differ on that. I still feel like a loyal customer for having purchased and enjoyed the many Bioware games in my collection, but I suppose based on your definitions I am not. Of course, I'm just fine being a repeat customer, so no harm done

Your definition of blind faith is flawed.  Bioware objectively exists.  I have played and subjectively evaluated their previous offerings.  I am taking a calculated risk based on the subjective conclusion that Bioware has never made a game I regretted buying.  Therefore, my faith is not blind.   I could very well end up wrong.  That's how it works.

Edit: I haven't actually preordered yet.  I likely will though, but I would gain nothing by doing it so far from the deadline.

Ulous wrote...
Not really, you are merely using the word  "loyalty" as what it means to you from what I can tell, I have bought in the past Baldurs Gate, NWN, KOTOR, ME1/ME2, and DAO, if I have bought all those games and don't pre-order DAO 2 does that mean I am not a loyal Bioware customer?

Maybe you were, but not now?  You can stop being loyal you know, it's - like I said - not an insult.  In fact if you weren't pleased with their recent games I wouldn't blame you.  If I don't like DA:2 I certainly won't be preordering DA:3, nor would I label myself a loyal customer.   I may be drawing a line in the sand, but that doesn't mean I'm against jumping to the other side of it if Bioware were to give me reason to.  They have not.  So I trust them to deliver on DA:2.

Does being loyal call for trust or not?  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 octobre 2010 - 05:13 .

[Meltemph]

but I would like to clarify a bit of my perspective. Were I to go in today and order DA2, I would consider that blind faith;

So then you do believe that a calculated risk, based on previous experience, is blind faith. Ok then.

we know very little about the game, so I would be pre-ordering strictly because it is a Bioware game. In my opinion, that's a dangerous habit to get in to. Again, just my opinion.

So it is "dangerous", because someone trusts a specific company, enough, to deliver a good game? So then, it is unreasonable to you, for people to expect BW to make a good game, before we have much to go on? But if you have never been burned by the company and with the title announced, you expect a very good game, you think it is dangerous to trust that the game is going to be good?

[M8DMAN]

Im kinda getting tired of the preorder the game get X item crap.



It use to be that you pre orderd a game because you we're excited about it. Not to get some crappy bonus item.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Dave of Canada wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

And whose fault would that be?

Players with a large sense of entitlement.

Oh brother, still clinging to that strawman argument I see.  
The fact that people have no issue with the idea of having paid DLC day 1 makes me weep for the future.  Not saying this is the case here with the bonus character, but considering Warden's Keep was indeed available day 1 for extra money, I'd not be surprised to see it happen again with DA2.

Noone is saying they're entitled at all, just that its a very shady and greedy thing to do to have paid DLC available day of release.

Modifié par CoS Sarah Jinstar, 18 octobre 2010 - 05:26 .

[Erode_The_Soul]

Meltemph wrote...

we know very little about the game, so I would be pre-ordering strictly because it is a Bioware game. In my opinion, that's a dangerous habit to get in to. Again, just my opinion.

So it is "dangerous", because someone trusts a specific company, enough, to deliver a good game? So then, it is unreasonable to you, for people to expect BW to make a good game, before we have much to go on? But if you have never been burned by the company and with the title announced, you expect a very good game, you think it is dangerous to trust that the game is going to be good?

I think I may not be explaining myself very well. I don't think pre-ordering now is a terrible thing.  Like you said, Bioware is expected to make a good game, and given their track record, I have no doubt that's what they'll do. I'm not here saying it's stupid to pre-order because, of course, Dragon Age 2 is going to be awful. I just feel like waiting to pre-order until we get more information about the product seems like a better idea than pre-ordering based on name alone. It's just a personal decision regarding my purchases. Just because a developer has been consistently good in the past is no guarantee they will continue to be in the future; I just like to inform myself before I throw down the cash. I understand that pre-orders can be cancelled and moved, etc, but to me, it just seems like a better idea to be informed.

I understand many here feel like Bioware's track record is enough to feel secure in a pre-order. I completely 100% understand that. Were I not wary about some features of DA2, I would feel the same. And I suppose it is that fact that eliminates me from "loyal" customer status based on some definitions, and I'm fine with that.

Modifié par Erode_The_Soul, 18 octobre 2010 - 05:26 .

[Ulous]

Upsettingshorts wrote...



Maybe you were, but not now?  You can stop being loyal you know, it's - like I said - not an insult.  In fact if you weren't pleased with their recent games I wouldn't blame you.  If I don't like DA:2 I certainly won't be preordering DA:3, nor would I label myself a loyal customer.   I may be drawing a line in the sand, but that doesn't mean I'm against jumping to the other side of it if Bioware were to give me reason to.  They have not.  So I trust them to deliver on DA:2.

Does being loyal call for trust or not?  

The problem is that neither side is right or wrong, it is merely the individuals perception of the word loyalty. To the people who believe this is merely rewarding loyalty they will not be bothered and/or indeed be delighted by it, to the people who believe they are having their loyalty thrown back in their faces they will of course be pissed off.

[upsettingshorts]

M8DMAN wrote...

Im kinda getting tired of the preorder the game get X item crap.

It use to be that you pre orderd a game because you we're excited about it. Not to get some crappy bonus item.

...you can't still preorder a game because you're excited about it? 

If you're excited and preorder now, you get a bonus.  YAY!

If you're hesitant now and don't preorder, you wait.  Just like always.

Ulous wrote...
The problem is that neither side is right or wrong, it is merely the individuals perception of the word loyalty.

As much as I could probably keep arguing semantics, just saying "that's fair" and heading to a different thread is the option I'm gonna go with.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 octobre 2010 - 05:27 .

[Jimmy Fury]

Erode_The_Soul wrote...
I understand that pre-orders can be cancelled and moved, etc, but to me, it just seems like a better idea to be informed.

I'll ask again, why do these have to be mutually exclusive concepts?
Why do you say that as if there are only 2 options: Preorder and be uninformed or wait and be informed?
By saying one idea is better or smarter than the other you are implying that they are two seperate things that can not overlap.
I preordered yesterday.
I don't pay for anything until the game ships on release day.
Therefore I am completely capable of making the EXACT same, fully informed, decision you will make if you wait until March 8th to purchase your game.

[Meltemph]

The fact that people have no issue with the idea of having paid DLC day 1 makes me weep for the future.

just that its a very shady and greedy thing to do to have paid DLC available day of release.

Over dramatic and judgmental as always... Simpler times, right? IF you honestly believe that they are selling it as shady and greedily and it makes you "weep for the future", I would say, just considering to buy the game is partly(at least) hypocritical. It's kinda like telling a friend to hold you back from attacking someone, while you cling to his back. And at the very least, you will be helping defeat your own opinion on the way the game is/would be getting marketed.

Even if you buy the game used, you are helping in increasing the demand for a used copy(Which requires a new copy, obviously)

And I'm actually being serious about this. If you actually get that worked up over this deal, then you should be voting with your wallet, since that is the only thing that actually backs up the rhetoric.

Im kinda getting tired of the preorder the game get X item crap. 

Then stop buying the products that do that.  It  is the only way you will see a change, enough people have to vote with their wallet to see a change in this market.

I think I may not be explaining myself very well. I don't think pre-ordering now is a terrible thing. Like you said, Bioware is expected to make a good game, and given their track record, I have no doubt that's what they'll do. I'm not here saying it's stupid to pre-order because, of course, Dragon Age 2 is going to be awful. I just feel like waiting to pre-order until we get more information about the product seems like a better idea than pre-ordering based on name alone. It's just a personal decision regarding my purchases. Just because a developer has been consistently good in the past is no guarantee they will continue to be in the future; I just like to inform myself before I throw down the cash. I understand that pre-orders can be cancelled and moved, etc, but to me, it just seems like a better idea to be informed.
I understand many here feel like Bioware's track record is enough to feel secure in a pre-order. I completely 100% understand that. Were I not wary about some features of DA2, I would feel the same. And I suppose it is that fact that eliminates me from "loyal" customer status, and I'm fine with that.

But you are still saying that Bioware should not offer the Signature Edition as an upgrade for early pre-orders, unless they can do it, with a date you approve of. Unless you don't have a problem with the early pre-order deal now?

Modifié par Meltemph, 18 octobre 2010 - 05:40 .

[Erode_The_Soul]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Erode_The_Soul wrote...
I understand that pre-orders can be cancelled and moved, etc, but to me, it just seems like a better idea to be informed.

I'll ask again, why do these have to be mutually exclusive concepts?
Why do you say that as if there are only 2 options: Preorder and be uninformed or wait and be informed?
By saying one idea is better or smarter than the other you are implying that they are two seperate things that can not overlap.
I preordered yesterday.
I don't pay for anything until the game ships on release day.
Therefore I am completely capable of making the EXACT same, fully informed, decision you will make if you wait until March 8th to purchase your game.

You can become informed, yes, but you put down something (granted, not the full amount, but something) on a game you know next to nothing about, so you were uninformed when you did so. I just feel uncomfortable paying something (even a marginal amount) for a game I know so little about. When Bioware gives more information about the game, and I feel a bit more secure about the direction the game is headed, then I'll decide if I want to opt in to the deal.
I understand you can cancel your pre-order if the game is not to your liking, but I just feel more comfortable knowing before I pre-order, than researching along the way. Just a personal preference.

[Meltemph]

Erode_The_Soul wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Erode_The_Soul wrote...
I understand that pre-orders can be cancelled and moved, etc, but to me, it just seems like a better idea to be informed.

I'll ask again, why do these have to be mutually exclusive concepts?
Why do you say that as if there are only 2 options: Preorder and be uninformed or wait and be informed?
By saying one idea is better or smarter than the other you are implying that they are two seperate things that can not overlap.
I preordered yesterday.
I don't pay for anything until the game ships on release day.
Therefore I am completely capable of making the EXACT same, fully informed, decision you will make if you wait until March 8th to purchase your game.

You can become informed, yes, but you put down something (granted, not the full amount, but something) on a game you know next to nothing about, so you were uninformed when you did so. I just feel uncomfortable paying something (even a marginal amount) for a game I know so little about. When Bioware gives more information about the game, and I feel a bit more secure about the direction the game is headed, then I'll decide if I want to opt in to the deal.
I understand you can cancel your pre-order if the game is not to your liking, but I just feel more comfortable knowing before I pre-order, than researching along the way. Just a personal preference.

You sound like a consumer looking for a very specific product, and it makes complete sense that you are taking that approach, but there are many who are not looking for a specific game, just a good Bioware one, and they believe, like me, that Bioware will deliver.  So we who are pre-ordering now, are looking for a Bioware game(there are things that you just expect in terms of quality with Bioware) where you sound more like you are looking for something more specific.

[AlanC9]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Oh brother, still clinging to that strawman argument I see.  
The fact that people have no issue with the idea of having paid DLC day 1 makes me weep for the future.  Not saying this is the case here with the bonus character, but considering Warden's Keep was indeed available day 1 for extra money, I'd not be surprised to see it happen again with DA2.

Noone is saying they're entitled at all, just that its a very shady and greedy thing to do to have paid DLC available day of release.

"Weep for the fuure." Melodramatic much?

Why is it greedier to have it on day 1, anyway? Day 1 or day 30 or day 100, it's still content they made that you have a choice to pay for. Sure, they might have been able to put it on the disc, or failing that  make it a free download, but they cuold always make any DLC free, whenever released. What's magic about day 1?

[AlanC9]

Erode_The_Soul wrote...
You can become informed, yes, but you put down something (granted, not the full amount, but something) on a game you know next to nothing about, so you were uninformed when you did so.

Do you put down something? I thought they didn't charge until it ships. I never preorder anything myself.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

AlanC9 wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Oh brother, still clinging to that strawman argument I see.  
The fact that people have no issue with the idea of having paid DLC day 1 makes me weep for the future.  Not saying this is the case here with the bonus character, but considering Warden's Keep was indeed available day 1 for extra money, I'd not be surprised to see it happen again with DA2.

Noone is saying they're entitled at all, just that its a very shady and greedy thing to do to have paid DLC available day of release.

"Weep for the fuure." Melodramatic much?

Why is it greedier to have it on day 1, anyway? Day 1 or day 30 or day 100, it's still content they made that you have a choice to pay for. Sure, they might have been able to put it on the disc, or failing that  make it a free download, but they cuold always make any DLC free, whenever released. What's magic about day 1?

Because it defies common sense to encourage that sort of flat out greed. And honestly? There's quite a lack of common sense these days.

Any content that is done months and months in advance SHOULD be on the disk imo. Not sold for extra profit on top of a 50-60 dollar entrance fee.

Though to be honest once again I'm not at all surprised with the posters who have zero issue with it.

[Erode_The_Soul]

Meltemph wrote...

You sound like a consumer looking for a very specific product, and it makes complete sense that you are taking that approach, but there are many who are not looking for a specific game, just a good Bioware one, and they believe, like me, that Bioware will deliver.  So we who are pre-ordering now, are looking for a Bioware game(there are things that you just expect in terms of quality with Bioware) where you sound more like you are looking for something more specific.

I suppose that's true. I always pay attention to games made by Bioware, as they rarely ever disappoint, so I completely understand what you're saying and it makes perfect sense; no arguments here. There are just some things about the direction that Bioware is headed with DA2 that I'm not entirely sure about. I wasn't a huge fan of ME2 and the same streamlining philosophy they had with that game seems to be happening with DA2. Now, I'm not on the "Dragon Effect" bandwagon at all, but I loved the first one and it seems they are changing the formula quite a bit with the second, so I'm just holding off until I hear a bit more that makes me more secure with the product. And even though Bioware has rarely disappointed, that doesn't mean they have never disappointed, so I feel more comfortable waiting.

TL;DR: You are right and I understand what you mean.


EDIT:

AlanC9 wrote...

Do you put down something? I thought they didn't charge until it ships. I never preorder anything myself.

Everywhere I've pre-ordered before (Wal-Mart, Target, Best Buy, Gamestop) have all required a minimum of $5 down on a pre-order. I don't know if that's the case with other retailers though.

Modifié par Erode_The_Soul, 18 octobre 2010 - 06:10 .

[Meltemph]

Any content that is done months and months in advance SHOULD be on the disk imo.

But why should it? Simply because it was made for the same product? So then you are telling them they are not allowed to work on DLC till the game is launched... That is purely a business decision. If they think they can handle making DLC and the game at the same time, who cares in which order the DLC comes out? However, I am also suspecting you don't like DLC much either.