967 réponses à ce sujet

[Marionetten]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Whatever wrings more tears from you.

Instead of attempting to attack my persona perhaps you should focus on addressing the argument you oh so miserably failed at? Coherency is nice.

Modifié par Marionetten, 15 octobre 2010 - 02:30 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Marionetten wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Last I heard, BioWare said they cut Shale because they were short on time.  Your argument is that you have magical information from space that they cut Shale specifically to sell as DLC.

BioWare statements >>>>   Marionetten's Space Knowledge

My argument is based on game data. Data accessible to anyone with an Internet connection. There is a wiki for this, you know.

Game data > BioWare PR.

Game data doesn't make logistical decisions regarding management of limited tim, people do.  Specifically, the devs did.


Practical thinking >>  Tearful lamentations.

[Sir JK]

Nerevar-as wrote...
I´d wait as much as necessary for a mostly bug free full game. Why shouldn´t I?  And deadlines? It´s October, DA2 is for March, and they are already out of time for a main party member?

How much is necessary though? One month? Two months? A year? Bioware have to decide how much they are willing to add, because in theory they could just add every good idea they get... and they'd never even finish the concept stage. Also, they don't have an infinite amount of money on their hands and pay it all at the end of development, but pay continually all the time. Sooner, rather than later, they must start making money.

Remember that by march the game must be as complete as possible. All the bugs they can find must be resolved, every inch of the game must have been tested. Before they can test the entire game though, the game must be fully coded, polished and decorated. Before that is done the mechanics must be in place, the lighting system must work and the levels created. And heavens know what else...

I wouldn't be surprised if they soon finish up and shift to polishing and testing, if they haven't already.

[PaulSX]

I think the bonus character will be included in the normal version too. the exclusive items are just the weapons and maybe the soundtracks

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Marionetten wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Whatever wrings more tears from you.

Instead of attempting to attack my persona perhaps you should focus on addressing the argument you oh so miserably failed at?

You might take your own advice, as you seem to have missed the rest of my post.  :lol:

[Marionetten]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Game data doesn't make logistical decisions regarding management of limited tim, people do.  Specifically, the devs did.

Practical thinking >>  Tearful lamentations.

Facts > Speculation.

Now, do you have anything of actual worth to say or are you going to continue this pointless tirade of yours?

[packardbell]

I don't get the complaints, you're given the option of having a free upgrade if oyu pre-order before a certain date.. where's the problem? You don't like it don't buy it, don't bring your whinging here.

[Leonia]

packardbell wrote...

I don't get the complaints, you're given the option of having a free upgrade if oyu pre-order before a certain date.. where's the problem? You don't like it don't buy it, don't bring your whinging here.

How dare you add logic and reason!

[Kilshrek]

I think people also forget another common feature in the gaming industry. Delays. Case in point, Origins itself.



Plenty of titles get pushed back from the proposed release date for a whole host of reasons. Some don't want competition, some aren't ready, whatever the developer/publisher decides to give as a reason.



As DLC is developed parallel to the core of a game, doesn't it get fed out to specific DLC teams? If that is the case why doesn't that team just step in and help integrate it into the core game in the first place? Assuming day 1 DLC release, that obviously gives the DLC team more time to refine their part as they don't have to worry about hitting the 'Gold' deadline. But cutting something originally envisioned in the core game but cut out for marketing/publishing reasons does not make a customer a happy one.



Here I would like to use Mafia 2 as an example, the game seemed to ship as bare bones, and I was extremely frustrated as to how little you could actually do in the world. Some people loved it, but I quite hated it. Maybe I've been spoiled by GTA, but my point comes here. A slew of DLC was announced for Mafia 2, I felt quite sickened by it. The core game already felt pretty light, and then right after the game launches, bam! DLC galore.



I don't expect Bioware would pull off a stunt like this, but I would like to make a point on why some people are so leery of DLC.



@ Sir JK



Games are like movies, they cost X amount to make, but people are only charged a set amount to view it (speaking in a relative term, to buying a game). The more people that watch a movie, the more money the studio gets and they hope to break even and maybe make even make plenty of money. Marketing helps there surely, but if a movie is a crock, no amount of marketing can save it as word of mouth gets out. Surely the same logic applies to games? Now I'm not saying DA 2 will suck, but putting in the effort to make sure the game will be as awesome as possible right from the get go is important, surely? Movies don't get the benefit of releasing 'mini episodes' to help the audience get a better understanding of the show.



I suppose I ran off on too many tangents there.... Time to sleep.

[Nerevar-as]

leonia42 wrote...

packardbell wrote...

I don't get the complaints, you're given the option of having a free upgrade if oyu pre-order before a certain date.. where's the problem? You don't like it don't buy it, don't bring your whinging here.

How dare you add logic and reason!

I see it more as having content from the game cut if I don´t preorder before a certain date. Not getting it anyway, DAO left clear that waiting for GotY is the wise thing to do. There´s nothing in SE as there was in DAO CE to make up for purchasing the game in March.

[packardbell]

Kilshrek wrote...

I think people also forget another common feature in the gaming industry. Delays. Case in point, Origins itself.

Plenty of titles get pushed back from the proposed release date for a whole host of reasons. Some don't want competition, some aren't ready, whatever the developer/publisher decides to give as a reason.

As DLC is developed parallel to the core of a game, doesn't it get fed out to specific DLC teams? If that is the case why doesn't that team just step in and help integrate it into the core game in the first place? Assuming day 1 DLC release, that obviously gives the DLC team more time to refine their part as they don't have to worry about hitting the 'Gold' deadline. But cutting something originally envisioned in the core game but cut out for marketing/publishing reasons does not make a customer a happy one.

Here I would like to use Mafia 2 as an example, the game seemed to ship as bare bones, and I was extremely frustrated as to how little you could actually do in the world. Some people loved it, but I quite hated it. Maybe I've been spoiled by GTA, but my point comes here. A slew of DLC was announced for Mafia 2, I felt quite sickened by it. The core game already felt pretty light, and then right after the game launches, bam! DLC galore.

I don't expect Bioware would pull off a stunt like this, but I would like to make a point on why some people are so leery of DLC.

@ Sir JK

Games are like movies, they cost X amount to make, but people are only charged a set amount to view it (speaking in a relative term, to buying a game). The more people that watch a movie, the more money the studio gets and they hope to break even and maybe make even make plenty of money. Marketing helps there surely, but if a movie is a crock, no amount of marketing can save it as word of mouth gets out. Surely the same logic applies to games? Now I'm not saying DA 2 will suck, but putting in the effort to make sure the game will be as awesome as possible right from the get go is important, surely? Movies don't get the benefit of releasing 'mini episodes' to help the audience get a better understanding of the show.

I suppose I ran off on too many tangents there.... Time to sleep.

It would only be a problem if the DLC was charged serpately when the content was already completed during the game's development process which shouldn't be the process, since if you're buying a game second-hand you aren't really supporting the developer anyway.

[Captain Sassy Pants]

leonia42 wrote...

packardbell wrote...

I don't get the complaints, you're given the option of having a free upgrade if oyu pre-order before a certain date.. where's the problem? You don't like it don't buy it, don't bring your whinging here.

How dare you add logic and reason!

There's no logic in completely ignoring valid complaints because you disagree.

Here's the problem: People want a full game when they buy it, whether that be preorder, the day it comes out, or a month later. They don't want to feel pressured into buying it early, sight unseen, in order to get all of the content the that they should logically be getting from the start. Especially when there is a possibility that that content may never be made available again after January 1st.

Not everyone is a yes man who bends over and takes it. This news actually makes me want to buy this game even less than I already did. I want to see finished content before I throw money at. 

And to an earlier poster: The music industry is in the same decline, because they somehow feel re-releasing a CD a few months after the initial release, with even more songs and other bonus material, will encourage people to stop downloading.

Unfortunately for them, it has the opposite affect. All of these big industries are crumbling because they think they can keep screwing the customers.

[Kreid]

Don't perorder if you don't want, buy it at release and you've got the whole game minus the extras
which have that name for a reason, and usually is added price or in this case pre-ordering.
Want extra? Do something extra.
See the logic?

Modifié par Creid-X, 15 octobre 2010 - 02:54 .

[David Gaider]

Nerevar-as wrote...
I see it more as having content from the game cut if I don´t preorder before a certain date.

I find that a bit strange, from our perspective. We make a complete game-- from concept on up-- and then at some point we start considering what extra content we want to make available for DLC. The timing of it is irrelevant simply because it's extra-- if it wasn't for DLC, it wouldn't exist at all. It seems that some people seem to think that because the extra content exists, they are somehow entitled to it.

My response would be to wait and see if the base game is enough to justify its cost-- but I guess to some people it can never be enough, and nothing is ever "extra" if they want it. Well, fair enough.

Not getting it anyway, DAO left clear that waiting for GotY is the wise thing to do. There´s nothing in SE as there was in DAO CE to make up for purchasing the game in March.

If you're not interested in playing the game immediately, that's fair. The price of games always goes down eventually. It's sort of everyone's choice to decide what a game is worth to them, isn't it?

At any rate, for those people who were already planning on ordering ahead of time, this is a nice bonus. If you're not sure it's worth it to you, then you shouldn't get it-- but then you don't get to complain later on that you should receive the benefits anyhow, I think.

[packardbell]

Captain Sassy Pants wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

packardbell wrote...

I don't get the complaints, you're given the option of having a free upgrade if oyu pre-order before a certain date.. where's the problem? You don't like it don't buy it, don't bring your whinging here.

How dare you add logic and reason!

There's no logic in completely ignoring valid complaints because you disagree.

Here's the problem: People want a full game when they buy it, whether that be preorder, the day it comes out, or a month later. They don't want to feel pressured into buying it early, sight unseen, in order to get all of the content the that they should logically be getting from the start. Especially when there is a possibility that that content may never be made available again after January 1st.

Not everyone is a yes man who bends over and takes it. This news actually makes me want to buy this game even less than I already did. I want to see finished content before I throw money at. 

And to an earlier poster: The music industry is in the same decline, because they somehow feel re-releasing a CD a few months after the initial release, with even more songs and other bonus material, will encourage people to stop downloading.

Unfortunately for them, it has the opposite affect. All of these big industries are crumbling because they think they can keep screwing the customers.

The deadline isn't set in stone and we're sure to see a plethora of content during that time being so passively pessimistic isn't helping things.

[upsettingshorts]

David Gaider wrote...
I find that a bit strange, from our perspective. We make a complete game-- from concept on up-- and then at some point we start considering what extra content we want to make available for DLC. The timing of it is irrelevant simply because it's extra-- if it wasn't for DLC, it wouldn't exist at all. It seems that some people seem to think that because the extra content exists, they are somehow entitled to it.

From the customers perspective I imagine a "complete" game is:

All ingame content - available through any means - that is in a complete state by the official release date.

Bonuses like maps or soundtracks, or comparitively insignificant pieces like the occasional weapon are likely not included in the definition. 

Customers such as those in this thread are unlikely to sympathize with developer statements on what was meant to be what, because of that definition right there.  Personally, I have no problem extending the benefit of the doubt, especially since I dont have an accountant and Bioware/EA's financial statements infront of me to prove otherwise.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 octobre 2010 - 02:58 .

[Wulfram]

Was the dialogue recorded for the DLC at the same time as the non DLC content?

[Sir JK]

Kilshrek wrote...
@ Sir JK

Games are like movies, they cost X amount to make, but people are only charged a set amount to view it (speaking in a relative term, to buying a game). The more people that watch a movie, the more money the studio gets and they hope to break even and maybe make even make plenty of money. Marketing helps there surely, but if a movie is a crock, no amount of marketing can save it as word of mouth gets out. Surely the same logic applies to games? Now I'm not saying DA 2 will suck, but putting in the effort to make sure the game will be as awesome as possible right from the get go is important, surely? Movies don't get the benefit of releasing 'mini episodes' to help the audience get a better understanding of the show.

You're absolutely correct. They need to make is as good as they possibly can and at the same time make it both affordable and release on time (we fans might tolerate a short delay if we are promised extra content but not a very long one).
However, to expand on your movie analogy. Imagine if after most scenes have been filmed, the score finished and most details completed, and someone ran in and said: "Wait, we need a scene with a helicopter too". That helicopter scene would need to be thought through, planned, written, filmed, edited and given sound and music. It has to go every single step of the way.
Same thing in a game. Everything new you add to the main game have to go through the entire development process. Pushing everything back... and then it has to be tested. I think it is a lot more work involved than people give it credit to be.
So instead of making it as a part of the main game, they are making it paralell to it. Using what resources they have for that, not having the same strict need for deadlines (meaning if it takes longer than expected noone will notice) and then offering it as a bonus (either to buy or part of marketing, which has value in itself). It is not cut from the game (okay... it may use things that were cut for time issues. But still...) but made at the side of it. A bonus, either to reward or give incentives for certain things or offering to those interested for a small (relatively) sum of money.

That's how I've understood it anyways. I'm not a game developer so I cannnot say for certain this is true.

[Nerevar-as]

David Gaider wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...
Not getting it anyway, DAO left clear that waiting for GotY is the wise thing to do. There´s nothing in SE as there was in DAO CE to make up for purchasing the game in March.

If you're not interested in playing the game immediately, that's fair. The price of games always goes down eventually. It's sort of everyone's choice to decide what a game is worth to them, isn't it?

At any rate, for those people who were already planning on ordering ahead of time, this is a nice bonus. If you're not sure it's worth it to you, then you shouldn't get it-- but then you don't get to complain later on that you should receive the benefits anyhow, I think.

No complains, don´t worry.

Looking forward to DA2 GotY in 2 years or so.[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

[Wulfram]

David Gaider wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...
I see it more as having content from the game cut if I don´t preorder before a certain date.

I find that a bit strange, from our perspective. We make a complete game-- from concept on up-- and then at some point we start considering what extra content we want to make available for DLC. The timing of it is irrelevant simply because it's extra-- if it wasn't for DLC, it wouldn't exist at all. It seems that some people seem to think that because the extra content exists, they are somehow entitled to it.

sounds like an argument for restuarants making you pay for ketchup

[Nozybidaj]

Captain Sassy Pants wrote...

And to an earlier poster: The music industry is in the same decline, because they somehow feel re-releasing a CD a few months after the initial release, with even more songs and other bonus material, will encourage people to stop downloading.

Unfortunately for them, it has the opposite affect. All of these big industries are crumbling because they think they can keep screwing the customers.

Yep, that's why i added the '/trying' part.  Still, they are doing better in finding ways to add incentive or make it easier to get products through legitimate means instead of piracy than they were a number of years ago.  That said, I haven't actually 'purchased' a music CD since they shut Napster down. 

Eventually the video game industry will have to figure out its own way of doing things or the industry will tank.  I don't think the current attempts to either add incentive or force DRM are going to be put up with from the general gamer populace in the long term.  Publishers/Developers will either have to start adapting and finding ways to fight piracy and second hand sales without punishing everyone else in the process or, well, that'll be that.

[Brockololly]

David Gaider wrote...
My response would be to wait and see if the base game is enough to justify its cost-- but I guess to some people it can never be enough, and nothing is ever "extra" if they want it. Well, fair enough.

Thats the thing though- this Signature Edition thing gets pushed out the door putting a time frame on when you need to decide to preorder or not to get an extra character and yet there is next to nothing out there to fairly judge if I may want DA2, besides some lackluster shaky cam vids and a superfluous CGI trailer.

David Gaider wrote...
At any rate, for those people who were already planning on ordering ahead of time, this is a nice bonus. If you're not sure it's worth it to you, then you shouldn't get it-- but then you don't get to complain later on that you should receive the benefits anyhow, I think.

Again, I'm not sure DA2 will really be my cup of tea quite yet at least until we can get some concrete info on the PC version and some actual gameplay footage and more specific details like PC specs and stuff like that. If info like that comes out and it looks good, I'll gladly preorder. I'm assuming we'll have some more substantial info before January, but what if its like ME2 where no PC footage was shown except before a couple weeks before release?

If I'm going to get the game I'd gladly take up this offer, but there is practically zero information on the game out there right now.

Modifié par Brockololly, 15 octobre 2010 - 03:04 .

[wantDA2now]

I found reasonable the use of codes in DA:O to access the full game (afaik bonus content was removed from the main game and repackaged as DLC) if you purchased first hand to discourage 2nd hand buyers, but this huge preorder bonus seems excessive to me.
I don't like preordering, because you never know what you'll get nowadays due to misleading marketing, etc. But, if I decide to buy the game soon after release due to good press and opinions, my 50€ net me less game than the 50€ from people who purchased before certain date (again, the content cut in order to sell it as an "extra"). I understood discouraging 2nd hand buyers from whom Bioware doesn't receive money, but this...sure I don't

Modifié par wantDA2now, 15 octobre 2010 - 03:08 .

[Kilshrek]

David Gaider wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...
I see it more as having content from the game cut if I don´t preorder before a certain date.

I find that a bit strange, from our perspective. We make a complete game-- from concept on up-- and then at some point we start considering what extra content we want to make available for DLC. The timing of it is irrelevant simply because it's extra-- if it wasn't for DLC, it wouldn't exist at all. It seems that some people seem to think that because the extra content exists, they are somehow entitled to it.

My response would be to wait and see if the base game is enough to justify its cost-- but I guess to some people it can never be enough, and nothing is ever "extra" if they want it. Well, fair enough.

Not getting it anyway, DAO left clear that waiting for GotY is the wise thing to do. There´s nothing in SE as there was in DAO CE to make up for purchasing the game in March.

If you're not interested in playing the game immediately, that's fair. The price of games always goes down eventually. It's sort of everyone's choice to decide what a game is worth to them, isn't it?

At any rate, for those people who were already planning on ordering ahead of time, this is a nice bonus. If you're not sure it's worth it to you, then you shouldn't get it-- but then you don't get to complain later on that you should receive the benefits anyhow, I think.

Not trying to be sarcastic or anything, but tone is notoriously difficult to convey across the internet. Whatever happened to good old expansion packs? Awakening was one, but other than that most developers seem happier to make bite sized pieces of extra stuff as DLC. From a developers perspective does DLC or physical copy based expansion packs make better sense?

Also like I was saying earlier, day 1 DLC does make some people feel unhappy as it seems like content that could be put in the game before it goes out. Stuff that comes out as DLC later of course doesn't get as many complaints, unless it's like ME 2 weapon packs.. *grumbles about lack of weapons in ME 2*

For my part, I will eventually join the fold and pre-order the Signature Edition, unless you guys have an even niftier edition lined up, in which case I shall consider my options. Now if only there was a toggle for AoE warriors.....

[Amfortas]

it's funny how announcements like this make me want to wait for a goty edition instead of pre-ordering, quite the opposite of what was intended... anyway, I don't want to judge anything before the game is released, hopefully this will be like Shale and it'll come with the game for free.