967 réponses à ce sujet

[nightcobra]

MerinTB wrote...

leonia42 wrote...
I remember a day when we didn't pre-order games or have incentives to do so. How spoiled RPG gamers are now!

You do?  What day was that?

I pre-ordered both Bard's Tale 3 and Pools of Darkness, and before that I was too young to be purchasing games myself (no job, no income)... so...

when were there no pre-orders?

And, as far as pre-order bonuses... games used to come with cloth maps and journal books and such for the REGULAR purchase.

Seriously, what era are you talking about where there were no pre-orders on games?  Wizardry 1?

i don't remember winning something in-game on ps2 games by pre-ordering and those were not so far back.

[Leonia]

MerinTB wrote...

leonia42 wrote...
I remember a day when we didn't pre-order games or have incentives to do so. How spoiled RPG gamers are now!

You do?  What day was that?

I pre-ordered both Bard's Tale 3 and Pools of Darkness, and before that I was too young to be purchasing games myself (no job, no income)... so...

when were there no pre-orders?

And, as far as pre-order bonuses... games used to come with cloth maps and journal books and such for the REGULAR purchase.

Seriously, what era are you talking about where there were no pre-orders on games?  Wizardry 1?

Not what I said. I said we didn't need to pre-order games or getting anything special if we did pre-order. There was a time, believe it or not, when people bought products off shelves.

[nightcobra]

leonia42 wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

leonia42 wrote...
I remember a day when we didn't pre-order games or have incentives to do so. How spoiled RPG gamers are now!

You do?  What day was that?

I pre-ordered both Bard's Tale 3 and Pools of Darkness, and before that I was too young to be purchasing games myself (no job, no income)... so...

when were there no pre-orders?

And, as far as pre-order bonuses... games used to come with cloth maps and journal books and such for the REGULAR purchase.

Seriously, what era are you talking about where there were no pre-orders on games?  Wizardry 1?

Not what I said. I said we didn't need to pre-order games or getting anything special if we did pre-order. There was a time, believe it or not, when people bought products off shelves.

and i still do buy them at stores:P

funny thing though i've started using pre-orders more from amazon since the game comes cheaper than at retail (more or less from 15 to 20 euros cheaper)

[marshalleck]

leonia42 wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

leonia42 wrote...
I remember a day when we didn't pre-order games or have incentives to do so. How spoiled RPG gamers are now!

You do?  What day was that?

I pre-ordered both Bard's Tale 3 and Pools of Darkness, and before that I was too young to be purchasing games myself (no job, no income)... so...

when were there no pre-orders?

And, as far as pre-order bonuses... games used to come with cloth maps and journal books and such for the REGULAR purchase.

Seriously, what era are you talking about where there were no pre-orders on games?  Wizardry 1?

Not what I said. I said we didn't need to pre-order games or getting anything special if we did pre-order. There was a time, believe it or not, when people bought products off shelves.

There was also a time when game developers thought forcing corpse runs while naked and unarmed was a good idea. Thankfully the general trend is toward progress. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 15 octobre 2010 - 04:17 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Marionetten wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Game data doesn't make logistical decisions regarding management of limited tim, people do.  Specifically, the devs did.

Practical thinking >>  Tearful lamentations.

Facts > Speculation.

Now, do you have anything of actual worth to say or are you going to continue this pointless tirade of yours?

As you were instructed before, go read my reply and try commenting on that.  Also, as you were instructed before, take your own advice and avoid commenting on what people do and look at their posts.

In response to your comment, I am please you finally agree with me.  The fact that BioWare said they cut Shale (last I heard) due to time contraints is worth more than your speculation that they evilly cut it from the game and sold it as DLC.  High five!   Thanks for seeing things the way they are.  :lol:

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Anarya wrote...

Out of time? No. I'd bet that this companion was planned for this from the start.

Agreed!  Why wouldn't they plan ahead for the "upgraded package?" 

[abat223]

Jeez.. i never knew getting extra stuff for free if you pre-ordered would get such negativity..

As far as the American market goes, its $60, plus you get $20 worth of stuff for free, what's the problem?



I was going to pre-order the collectors addition and expected to pay more than $60, thank you Bioware for making it cheaper.

[MerinTB]

leonia42 wrote...

RyuAzai wrote...
And honestly a new Fallout 3(When it was new) at 59.99? Or a used at 54.99? I will take the fifty four and the people at gamestop keeps all that. So the game industry has really had to find ways to get gamers to buy new games so they can keep making money.

Hence the pre-order and you get more things. And for those that don't, well they probably won't  make a lot of money off of them as it is very more likely they'll buy used. So to actually make some money for people playing your game you offer, to them, you make them buy the DLC

So in the end I am not mad at bioware, really just gamestop. Despite enjoying the ability to buy used games really cheap myself. It is just how the industry is changing, how it is evolved because of what us, the gamers and consumers, have done.

That was an interesting read, I guess I hadn't considered the role of retailers much before since I usually buy my games through Steam. Enlightening and a bit depressing. I feel for the game industry, really.

The demonizing of Gamestop (a store I have no love for, trust me) needs to stop.
If you rent movies, you are "screwing the movie industry" just as much as buying used (or renting) games.  If you buy items from a pawn shop or consignment store, you are just as much "screwing the original product manufacturers" as you are screwing the game industry for buying used games.

It is a false argument.

Lost potential sales is a made-up concept that doesn't actually have any real statistical improtance.  It assumes each rental or used sale (or "pirated copy") would have been real purchases (or that rentals and "pirated copy" never lead to actual purchases) - both are not true.

Every used copy being sold at Gamestop (or other such stores) is a game that ALREADY SOLD.  That was a sale.  Just like each copy at a rental store was a sale for the game company (in fact, rental places lead to a large portion of the initial sales of games and movies.)  And the fact that a customer can buy a game new and then, if they don't like it, turn around and easily sell it back to Gamestop actually boosts sales of new copies of games (how close to the numbers who wait for a used copy, who knows - maybe Gamestop ahs the statistics on that.)

Used game copies also let consumers try a game for cheaper, and if they like it they may decide to buy a new copy of the next in that series or from that game developer (yes, it happens - I know people like this - though how often this happens overall is not something I can quantify.)

Stop buying into propaganda put out by the game companies.  EA is no more or less "evil" than Gamestop.  They are businesses out to make money.

[nightcobra]

abat223 wrote...

Jeez.. i never knew getting extra stuff for free if you pre-ordered would get such negativity..
As far as the American market goes, its $60, plus you get $20 worth of stuff for free, what's the problem?

I was going to pre-order the collectors addition and expected to pay more than $60, thank you Bioware for making it cheaper.

even cheaper for me, i'm preordering and i will pay it for 45~47 euros:wizard:

[David Gaider]

bjdbwea wrote...
So since Mr. Gaider did not respond to the actual issue, I guess that's at least confirmation that indeed the additional companion will not be included in any game pre-ordered or bought after January 11th, 2011.

I have no idea what the plan is, so I'm not going to comment on it. You're free to assume whatever you like.

I just find it strange that if we decide to sell extra content, whether it was planned/created before, during or after the development of the main game that you're somehow entitled to that for the same price. But I guess this just goes back to the whole DLC reactionary thing-- everyone has their own subjective means of assigning value to something, so it's best not to wade into the middle of it.

Cheers!

Modifié par David Gaider, 15 octobre 2010 - 04:24 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Kilshrek wrote...

As DLC is developed parallel to the core of a game, doesn't it get fed out to specific DLC teams? If that is the case why doesn't that team just step in and help integrate it into the core game in the first place? Assuming day 1 DLC release, that obviously gives the DLC team more time to refine their part as they don't have to worry about hitting the 'Gold' deadline. But cutting something originally envisioned in the core game but cut out for marketing/publishing reasons does not make a customer a happy one.

Here I would like to use Mafia 2 as an example, the game seemed to ship as bare bones, and I was extremely frustrated as to how little you could actually do in the world. Some people loved it, but I quite hated it. Maybe I've been spoiled by GTA, but my point comes here. A slew of DLC was announced for Mafia 2, I felt quite sickened by it. The core game already felt pretty light, and then right after the game launches, bam! DLC galore.

I don't expect Bioware would pull off a stunt like this, but I would like to make a point on why some people are so leery of DLC.

I totally agree on your example!  Mafia II wasn't a release day buy for me, but the more I heard it was different from the first one, the more I decided to wait.  It very much appears that the pub/devs of Mafia II either rushed it and sold the things they finished as add ons, or they we being shady.

BioWare, and RPG, games are very different.  DAO, ME2... you can play a dozen different full games before the DLC drops and find a different story in each.  A game that's more of  a railroad ride like Mafia II... a barebones game pretty much ruins things.

I do disagree regarding your first point.  I would rather get a polished game with free of cheap DLC down the road than a game with everything in it and everything slightly broken... like the new Final Fantasy game.  I have a friend that's a life long FF player and after two hours of playtime, he got up, knelt at his shrine to Quistus and prayed the game itself would die.  Now if FF was smaller and more polished now with polished DLC later... it might have been a better experience.

[bjdbwea]

And would you please stop mixing the issue of combating the used games market with the issue of punishing players for not pre-ordering a game. One has little to do with the other. DA and ME 2 already included codes that could only be redeemed once to download some additional content, each including one companion cut from the main game. This was part of the strategy to combat the used games market.

But the matter of the fact is, you could still get these DLCs if you bought the game after release. Pre-order bonuses in the form of items are one thing, but withholding actual in-game gameplay content like "an additional playable character and new missions" is unacceptable. This almost seems like a strategy to combat the idea of players wanting to inform themselves about the product they might buy.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 15 octobre 2010 - 04:38 .

[Wulfram]

Will there be in game advertisement for this DLC?



1. Pay EA a ridiculously inflated price

2. Leave this man to die a painful death

[abat223]

bjdbwea wrote...

And would you please stop mixing the issue of combating the used games market with the issue of punishing players for not pre-ordering a game. One has little to do with the other. DA and ME 2 already included codes that could only be redeemed once to download some additional content, each including one companion cut from the main game. This was part of the strategy to combat the sales games market.

But the matter of the fact is, you could still get these DLCs if you bought the game after release. Pre-order bonuses in the form of items are one thing, but withholding actual in-game gameplay content like "an additional playable character and new missions" is unacceptable. This almost seems like a strategy to combat the idea of players wanting to inform themselves about the product they might buy.

Has anyone from Bioware said "If you don't pre-order, we won't include any special DLC code whatsoever in the standard edition game"?

[bjdbwea]

David Gaider wrote...

I have no idea what the plan is, so I'm not going to comment on it. You're free to assume whatever you like.

Then perhaps you could try to find an answer to this question. With all due respect, I think that it's important enough. If even the "additional playable character and new missions" are really exclusive to pre-ordered games, surely there's no harm in openly saying that again. After all, you want to advertise with it.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 15 octobre 2010 - 04:43 .

[MerinTB]

leonia42 wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

leonia42 wrote...
I remember a day when we didn't pre-order games or have incentives to do so. How spoiled RPG gamers are now!

You do?  What day was that?

I pre-ordered both Bard's Tale 3 and Pools of Darkness, and before that I was too young to be purchasing games myself (no job, no income)... so...

when were there no pre-orders?

And, as far as pre-order bonuses... games used to come with cloth maps and journal books and such for the REGULAR purchase.

Seriously, what era are you talking about where there were no pre-orders on games?  Wizardry 1?

Not what I said. I said we didn't need to pre-order games or getting anything special if we did pre-order. There was a time, believe it or not, when people bought products off shelves.

nightcobra8928 wrote...
i don't remember winning something in-game on ps2 games by pre-ordering and those were not so far back.

They still do.  And they used to pre-order as well.  Who are you talking to "believe it or not" - I mean, are you talking about the 70's or something, cause otherwise I was there in the 80's with games.  You aren't talking to a fifteen year old or anything, ok?

You've never had to, nor do you now have to, pre-order games.  Amd there were incentives to ordering early going WAY back.  I'm talking Atari 2600 days, C-64 times and earlier.  Usually pre-order bonuses were a retail store incentive and usually pre-ordering was to make sure you got a copy of a popular product so you didn't have to wait until release day and find out the store sold out before you could get your copy.  Pre-ordering items is NOT new, regardless of your personal experience with certain games.  Video games were for sale decades before there was a PS2, and Electronics Boutique and other "game" stores existed since the late 70's / early 80's, and I can tell you for a fact they had pre-orders AND often pre-order bonuses.

I will give you this - pre-order bonuses equaling a "special edition" are somewhat new to me (other than limited editions being, well, limited runs and therefore usually pre-ordered to their limited.)  This signature edition is somewhat of an amalgram that is hard to classify.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Brockololly wrote...

Thats the thing though- this Signature Edition thing gets pushed out the door putting a time frame on when you need to decide to preorder or not to get an extra character and yet there is next to nothing out there to fairly judge if I may want DA2, besides some lackluster shaky cam vids and a superfluous CGI trailer.

Again, I'm not sure DA2 will really be my cup of tea quite yet at least until we can get some concrete info on the PC version and some actual gameplay footage and more specific details like PC specs and stuff like that. If info like that comes out and it looks good, I'll gladly preorder. I'm assuming we'll have some more substantial info before January, but what if its like ME2 where no PC footage was shown except before a couple weeks before release?

If I'm going to get the game I'd gladly take up this offer, but there is practically zero information on the game out there right now.

Totally understand your point here, but you could always pre-order, not paying a dollar (or rupee or seashell or whatever), then if you don't like what you see down the line, you can cancel.

[Dave of Canada]

slimgrin wrote...

But you are right about the comparison to ME2. You were rewarded for buying new which I thought was a fair tactic on their part. Bonuses for Pre-ordering is an altogether different tactic, and I simply will not participate in it.

You'll likely get the companion, preorder or not.

See how they have Shale on the Collector's Edition of Origins:

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Dave of Canada wrote...

If the game comes with:
Two rogue companions.
Two mage companions.
Two warrior companions.

... and the DLC added a third to one of these, is it not simply a bonus? You're still getting the full game, the game won't be hollow without this companion's existence. Just like how not having Zaeed or Shale made ME2/Origins feel any less of a full game.

This. 

[Xewaka]

David Gaider wrote...

I don't know. I'm not the person who decides whether there's DLC or expansion packs or what have you, but my impression is that the only reason expansion packs existed to begin with was because they needed to go on the retail shelf. You had to put out something substantial enough that it could go on its own CD and sell as a separate entity.

And this is why expansions are superior in every way to that crap DLC companies seem so keen on churn out. When I buy an expansion, I feel my money validated. I have yet to find a piece of DLC worth my money.

[Zlarm]

David Gaider wrote...

I find that a bit strange, from our perspective. We make a complete game-- from concept on up-- and then at some point we start considering what extra content we want to make available for DLC. The timing of it is irrelevant simply because it's extra-- if it wasn't for DLC, it wouldn't exist at all. It seems that some people seem to think that because the extra content exists, they are somehow entitled to it.

My response would be to wait and see if the base game is enough to justify its cost-- but I guess to some people it can never be enough, and nothing is ever "extra" if they want it. Well, fair enough.

The line between dlc and cut content does seem to be getting blurred though wouldn't you agree (atleast from a consumer's perspective)?  10 years ago when dlc wasn't around that cool extra character idea might have been included into the game rather than set as a pre order bonus or as paid dlc... Plus I'm not sure you're the most unbiased source of information considering we are on different sides of the consumer/ supplier divide (I don't mean this as an insult).  

Ultimately whether DA2 justifies its cost is a little hard to decide at the moment since the only things you guys seem focused on right now is "think like a general and fight like a spartan".  Hopefully by January we'll have a bit of a better idea. 

[upsettingshorts]

Xewaka wrote...
And this is why expansions are superior in every way to that crap DLC companies seem so keen on churn out. When I buy an expansion, I feel my money validated. I have yet to find a piece of DLC worth my money.

I found Lair of the Shadow Broker a much better investment than Dragon Age Origins: Awakening.  Opinions are fun.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Marionetten wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

How so?

Because it's a direct loss of content. Less content means less gametime.

We can debate the magnitude of this lost content until the sun sets but it doesn't chage the fact that it's still a matter of having less content.

Your fact is superfluous.  Content is content, a great game is a great game.

Marionetten wrote...

But it did make it less of a game.

The amount of content doesn't make a game any less.  The story, the presentation, how well it draws you in and entertains you, those make a game great.  You can spend 400 hours per chapter of a boaring game and the game will still suck compared to a 12 hour game that was fun to play, told a great story, and entertained you.

Not having Zaeed in my first run through of ME2 did make the game shorter, correct.  It did not make the game less.  That was still a fantastic game and goes right up next to Thief 2, Alpha Centauri, Corporate Machine, and DAO as the best games I've ever played.  Don't confuse content for quality.