268 réponses à ce sujet

[Casuist]

Shandepared wrote...

Casuist wrote...

...and if that belief is irrational or unjustified, that proves the point regarding Udina and the council.

It's not irrational or unjustified.

This is where I can point out that there are several lengthy posts over the course of the thread that you can refer to concerning the fact that, even if you consider the Reapers to be fictional, it is ultimately irrational and unjustified to disregard Saren, the geth and the conduit given the obvious evidence at hand. You can even find numerous comments pointing out that there is a rational basis for every imoprtant ME1 action shepard takes (even either of the Rachni decisions) and that Shepard does nothing outside of a spectre's purview.

Rather than restating all that, I will instead suggest that you go read it, and then return and post a logical, point-by-point refutation. 

[Nightwriter]

You know what I don't get? Why Udina will believe what you say about Saren, but not the Reapers.

I mean think about it, when it comes to Saren's guilt the only real evidence you have to go on in the beginning of ME1 is that dockworker, which is no better than Tali's recording or your word about the beacon visions. Actually, the word of a dockworker is quite flimsy, flimsier than a recording anyway, yet Udina automatically believes Saren is to blame.

It sounds like believing Saren is guilty is convenient for his interests, but believing the Reapers exist isn't.

[Casuist]

Shandepared wrote...

They weren't being disregarded. The Council amassed a large fleet and positioned it to protect itself.

...this being the very definition of "disregarding" the conduit.

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

blah blah

Right, because a Spectre launching an all-out attack on some remote human settlement using a robot hoard and a dreadnought class ship that can land on planets isn't far-fetched at all.

You do nothing but state that you gave Udina no real evidence so he had no reason to believe you.

There was a similar lack of evidence in regard to Saren, yet he believed Saren's guilt. Why? He likely deferred to judgment. So you can't fault Anderson for deferring to judgment.

[Alessar]

How are Saren's actions vs the existence of the reapers being compared?

On one hand you have the reapers, who are things of myth, that are revered as gods by the geth. Every clue that you have isn't concrete or sounds far fetched when told to Udina.

On the other hand you have Saren, who has had previous interaction with Anderson. Udina knows about their history thus knows about his behavior and actions during that mission. While having one traumatized dock worker might not be enough, it sure is more than just being told a story about reapers with no evidence. He has some idea about the type of being Saren is and what he is dealing with due to past history.

Modifié par Alessar, 18 octobre 2010 - 07:33 .

[Casuist]

Shandepared wrote...

Saren is the main threat, he is the leader,

I agree (obviously, if you'd been reading my posts)

the Conduit is just a tool he is after. You have no proof that the Conduit actually does anything.

...except that Saren believes it does, at least enough to consider pursuing it at great length and expense to be worthwhile. Given that and the connection to the protheans, disregarding it is extraordinarily foolish. 

You don't even know what it is. Yet you are trying to tell the Council to commit to an invasion to acquire it.

....actually, I'm not. I'm telling the council to send (or simply allow) the Normandy after it at the very least. Read my posts, comprehend them, and then argue with statements Ive actually made rather than an absurd caricature. Please.

Even if you disbelieve the Reaper threat (foolish, since only Shepard has seen the beacon message, but somewhat valid), grounding the Normandy is a stupid, irrational decision given the potential for harm. One of the two council member options went along with it.

Modifié par Casuist, 18 octobre 2010 - 07:44 .

[Nightwriter]

Oh dear. Shand's in one of his grumpy moods again.

You know, you should try not to be too much of an ass, or you'll run out of people who will actually talk to you. Just saying.

Right. Udina. So let's go over the facts at his disposal:

1. A dreadnought (which is on videotape) landed on Eden Prime. Something strictly impossible.
2. Benezia and Saren reference the Reapers in their conversation.
3. Tali's geth had data about the Reapers in its memory core.
4. Commander Shepard says s/he has seen visions of the Reapers.
5. Shiala, Rana Thanoptis, and a large number of STG members can attest to indoctrination.
6. The entire crew of the Normandy can attest to interaction with a Reaper.
7. Shepard has a conversation with a Reaper which even Legion found records of.
8. A Reaper attacks the Citadel.

None of these things should prove anything to Udina - but they should make him go "???" Yet instead, more denial. Like the Council, he is not at fault for disbelieving the existence of the Reapers, but in failing to investigate what are obviously very strange phenomenon.

[Foolsfolly]

Udina's a terrible choice. He's selfish, pigheaded, and completely stabs you in the back in ME2. Anderson's a good officer, a hero, a military mind (which the Council needs to defeat the Reapers), and he knows when to let go.



His only fault is that he doesn't seem to have the stomach for politics. He needs someone to help him make political maneuvers. Someone who's not Udina since he's too self-serving to really help Anderson, may actually make more problems for him in the hopes that he'd step down and Udina take his place.

[Foolsfolly]

Nightwriter wrote...

Oh dear. Shand's in one of his grumpy moods again.

You know, you should try not to be too much of an ass, or you'll run out of people who will actually talk to you. Just saying.

Right. Udina. So let's go over the facts at his disposal:

1. A dreadnought (which is on videotape) landed on Eden Prime. Something strictly impossible.
2. Benezia and Saren reference the Reapers in their conversation.
3. Tali's geth had data about the Reapers in its memory core.
4. Commander Shepard says s/he has seen visions of the Reapers.
5. Shiala, Rana Thanoptis, and a large number of STG members can attest to indoctrination.
6. The entire crew of the Normandy can attest to interaction with a Reaper.
7. Shepard has a conversation with a Reaper which even Legion found records of.
8. A Reaper attacks the Citadel.

None of these things should prove anything to Udina - but they should make him go "???" Yet instead, more denial. Like the Council, he is not at fault for disbelieving the existence of the Reapers, but in failing to investigate what are obviously very strange phenomenon.

Of course, denial would make total sense if the Council (including Udina) are indoctrinated.

Why not Anderson then? Plot immunity thanks to the books but a real reason could be because he hates his job he's rarely in the council chambers and thus wasn't indoctrinated.

[Foolsfolly]

Alessar wrote...

How are Saren's actions vs the existence of the reapers being compared?

On one hand you have the reapers, who are things of myth, that are revered as gods by the geth. Every clue that you have isn't concrete or sounds far fetched when told to Udina.

On the other hand you have Saren, who has had previous interaction with Anderson. Udina knows about their history thus knows about his behavior and actions during that mission. While having one traumatized dock worker might not be enough, it sure is more than just being told a story about reapers with no evidence. He has some idea about the type of being Saren is and what he is dealing with due to past history.

In ME1's Renegade ending Udina believes in the Reaper threat and says that only Humanity can stop them. It's a big change in Udina's personality from ME1's ending to ME2's cameo. He's gung-ho about stopping the Reapers and then he denies them like the rest of the useless Council.

[Spectre_907]

My only concern is stopping the Reapers. Politics is useless to that cause and I wouldn't care who was on the Council. But ignoring this, I would rather place someone who will support my cause (and one who will be easier to influence) than someone who tried to impede it.

Ignoring the Reapers, Udina can make things politically possible but has an agenda that I feel is not in line with galactic interests over human concerns. Anderson lacks this agenda and is clear about what he wants yet is not able to make things politically possible like Udina can. Udina as an advisor and Anderson as councilor is the better option.

Modifié par Spectre_907, 18 octobre 2010 - 09:27 .

[Pauravi]

Foolsfolly wrote...

In ME1's Renegade ending Udina believes in the Reaper threat and says that only Humanity can stop them. It's a big change in Udina's personality from ME1's ending to ME2's cameo. He's gung-ho about stopping the Reapers and then he denies them like the rest of the useless Council.

But both his and the council's denials make sense, even in that context.
Here, I hijacked this from another thread.  This is only one perfectly plausible explanation:

Phaedon wrote...

A giant ship almost killed you two years
ago. Shepard was screaming conspiracy theories throughout the whole Mass
Effect 1 and he saved your life, so you believe him , by instict. You
are expecting a huge war against the Reapers and you have to think. What
the hell am I going to tell to the public ? That monsters escaped from a
myth and are now trying to wipe out all organic life. This is the point
when you start questioning Shepard.

Sure, you rebuild your
fleet, but you won't be saying anything to the public for now. Shepard
dies, and for 2 years nonthing happens. Where the hell are the massive
fleets of the Reapers ? Gone to a  vacation trip ? You slowly realize
that the whole situation makes no sense and that Shepard was probably
brainwashed by Saren. Makes sense.

You have to keep in mind what you're telling The Council here.
This is crazy stuff on the order of the Mayan 2010 Doomsday Scenario.  They'd need some pretty extraordinary proof to spend resources investigating it, and they haven't seen anything that wouldn't be explained, more plausibly, by the Geth, whose technology they know relatively little about.  Sure, they aren't being particularly proactive, but its something so far-fetched that when they're divvying up the galactic dollars, they'd probably much rather use their money to fund an upstart colony on a new garden world than pay a crew to go searching hither and yon for bits of evidence of an ancient threat that probably doesn't exist.

In any case, as to the OP's question -- from Shepard's perspective, Anderson is the reasonable choice.  He is the only one who acknowledges the Reapers even before Sovereign shows up, and his decisiveness would be valuable.  From my own perspective, as opposed to Shepard's, Anderson is a military-oriented man and Udina is a career politician.  I don't like either of them.  Politicians aren't necessarily good at solving problems, they're just good at making themselves look good and getting re-elected.

Modifié par Pauravi, 18 octobre 2010 - 09:34 .

[Anglerfish]

Who do you think is the logical choice for the human council member and why?

None of the above - I vote for Illusive Man. For the lulz. And because he might get something done. And he could toss bourbon at the other council members whenever they questioned me.

Modifié par Anglerfish, 18 octobre 2010 - 10:29 .

[Sgt Lindog]

i reckon admiral kohoku had what it takes until cerberus decided to dice him up with rachni

[Dean_the_Young]

Nightwriter wrote...

Oh dear. Shand's in one of his grumpy moods again.

You know, you should try not to be too much of an ass, or you'll run out of people who will actually talk to you. Just saying.

Right. Udina. So let's go over the facts at his disposal:

1. A dreadnought (which is on videotape) landed on Eden Prime. Something strictly impossible.

Only by our technology, but the geth and the Protheans both are known to be very capable technologically, even beyond the Council.

2. Benezia and Saren reference the Reapers in their conversation.

To fool the Geth.

3. Tali's geth had data about the Reapers in its memory core.

What the Geth believed... because Saren is a charismatic person telling them.

2 and 3 are the same point, by the way.

4. Commander Shepard says s/he has seen visions of the Reapers.

Dreams are proof now? 'Visions' that even the Commander doesn't know the meaning of until four story missions later.

The info on the beacon lacks context of everything else. Shepard saw 'synthetics attacking organics.' Why couldn't that be a horror movie on a classic theme? Why do we assume it is in any sense accurate, considering it was made and intended for a completely different species with completely different thought processes?

5. Shiala, Rana Thanoptis, and a large number of STG members can attest to indoctrination.

A previously unknown geth technology. How is this 'end of the world!'?

6. The entire crew of the Normandy can attest to interaction with a Reaper.

But what is a 'Reaper'? An AI ship built by an AI race? A prothean warship Saren found? Or timeless abominations from deep space?

However self-serving and convenient the Council's theory, it isn't without grounds or reasonability.

Saren, always ambitious, finds a Prothean/pre-prothean AI dreadnaught Sovereign, loaded with advanced technologies. Seeing an opportunity, Saren goes to the Geth, preaching himself as its profit of this 'Reaper' and aweing them with its technology. Promises them advancement if they help him take the Citadel. Begins his war after the Beacon on Eden Prime, hoping to uncover a superweapon referred to as 'the Conduit' which he hopes, with Sovereign, will give him conventional firepower to break through to the Citadel.

7. Shepard has a conversation with a Reaper which even Legion found records of.

I actually don't see the intent behind this point. Shepard put in a report: of course there are records.

8. A Reaper attacks the Citadel.

A geth fleet attacks the Citadel with it. Does that make the Geth the same timeless abominations from deep space?

None of these things should prove anything to Udina - but they should make him go "???" Yet instead, more denial. Like the Council, he is not at fault for disbelieving the existence of the Reapers, but in failing to investigate what are obviously very strange phenomenon.

I will agreeit goes ****** up for everyone in ME2.

[jbblue05]

I can't believe some of you guys think Anderson is the better choice just because he's in the military, gave you your spectre status back, and believes you about the Reapers unconditionally without any proof.

The seat on the Council should go to humanity's top politician.  Udina is the ambassador and the best polotician humanity offered to the Council .  So it makes sense for the Ambassador to the Council to become the Council member

Some people are just blinded by hatred of Udina just like with Cerberuus.

Anderson doesn't know crap about politics and even admits the rest of the Council walks all over him and vetoes everyone of his suggestions. What good is it to have  a council member if he has no impact on galactic law?   Retribution enhances the idea of Anderson being a crappy politician when the political sh!tstorm hits Anderson goes and runs off with his girlfriend while Udina is cleaning up his mess.

Anderson is best serving as a rear admiral in the Alliance but he's not welcomed in the Alliance anymore.

Putting Anderson on the Council is like putting a fluffy bunny in a cage of pit vipers.

[Giggles_Manically]

Udina is hardly a better choice.

Anderson gets respect and improves relations.

Udina seems intent on being the next emperor, and steps on people's toes left and right.



The Reapers are coming, and Udina denies this, so he goes into the "Dumb Ass Politician" box, and I ignore his existence as best I can.



Putting Udina on the council is like putting Glenn Beck in the Oval Office.

[Xilizhra]

The sheer consistency of Paragon and Renegade followers alike on this forum is fascinating. The Renegade players, here, are even putting themselves into the mindset of their Council enemies.

Putting Anderson on the Council is like putting a fluffy bunny in a cage of pit vipers.

Specifically, the Dynamite one from Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

[Gabey5]

at least anderson acknowledges the existence of the reapers..

[jbblue05]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Udina is hardly a better choice.
Anderson gets respect and improves relations.
Udina seems intent on being the next emperor, and steps on people's toes left and right.

ANderson gets  no respect from the Council becuase they can walk all over him. And disoesn't do anything to improve relations. With all the evidence of Anderson screwing things up its a pipe dream to believe he improves relations. 
Udina is just doing his job  as a Council member just because he isn't uber-nice doesn't mean he has evil intentions.