268 réponses à ce sujet

[kraidy1117]

Julie Shepard wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Does not matter who you pick. Anderson resigns anyways.

Eh, when?
I didn't see this..

Retribution. Anderson quiting is a major part of that story.

[mosor]

Casuist wrote...

Now you are making things up.

I can quote a couple dozen pages from the collector base argument thread from people who suggest just that if I had the time to bother.

...which, even if it were Udina's only motivation (and evidence would suggest it isn't), would lead us to question his judgment (since there's ample evidence to demonstrate the nature of the threat and the risk they are running by ignoring it). 

I honestly don't care if he has other motivations as long as they don't conflict with advancing human interests. A politician thats an ambitious, media hog, glory hound? How very shocking!

As for his judgement. Keep in mind the council and Udina are not seeing the evidence from your perspective. Keep in mind, that Udina, in his role as an ambassidor had a responsibility to find a working arrangement with the council. While Anderson, a grounded Alliance officer without a command had no responsibilities at all.

[AntiChri5]

I never said I didn't trust him, I just don't think he's a good Councilor. I pointed out his corruption to put Udina in a better light. People hate Udina for petty reasons.

But that very "corruption" is why you should support him. It is why you support Cerberus, they are fighting the Reapers.

[AntiChri5]

Anderson supported you from the beginning, Udina only after you had won and praising you cost him nothing.

You are surprised which stands by you and which abandons you?

[Nightwriter]

Udina had demonstrated he would put politics over survival. Anderson had demonstrated he would put survival over politics.

This is the information you had at your disposal.

[Nightwriter]

Chri5, Tiger Alpha attack formation.

[Casuist]

mosor wrote...

Casuist wrote...

Now you are making things up.

I can quote a couple dozen pages from the collector base argument thread from people who suggest just that if I had the time to bother.

So you're equating speculation about what plausibly could happen in the future with inventing things about the past out of whole cloth?

I honestly don't care if he has other motivations as long as they don't conflict with advancing human interests. A politician thats an ambitious, media hog, glory hound? How very shocking!

He had other motivations that conflicted with humanity's interest in surviving.

As for his judgement. Keep in mind the council and Udina are not seeing the evidence from your perspective. Keep in mind, that Udina, in his role as an ambassidor had a responsibility to find a working arrangement with the council. While Anderson, a grounded Alliance officer without a command had no responsibilities at all.

...obviously, since I pointed out that the threat is of adequate severity even if you think the reaper story is bunk. However, there's a rogue spectre who has established dominance over a powerful synthetic race, is attacking citadel species in citadel space, attempted to build himself a krogan army, and is on the hunt for an apparently important porothean artifact. If this is not a threat worthy of attention: judgment is questionable.

[AntiChri5]

~enters Tiger Alpha attack formation~

[tommyt_1994]

Is Udina that smart? He did want to send the citadel fleet into the traverse after Saren...

[mosor]

Casuist wrote...


So you're equating speculation about what plausibly could happen in the future with inventing things about the past out of whole cloth?

Hard to argue a point, if you don't point out what information I said was erronious. It states in ME1 that they're doing a joint species effort to stop Saren by posting ships around Mass Relays, and Udina says this is an opportunity for humanity. The only opportunity that could possibly be relevant  is getting closer to an actual council seat. Other than that, I don't know what you're talking about.

He had other motivations that conflicted with humanity's interest in surviving.

A blanket statement you don't support with any facts. I can't take your accusation seriously.

...obviously, since I pointed out that the threat is of adequate severity even if you think the reaper story is bunk. However, there's a rogue spectre who has established dominance over a powerful synthetic race, is attacking citadel species in citadel space, attempted to build himself a krogan army, and is on the hunt for an apparently important porothean artifact. If this is not a threat worthy of attention: judgment is questionable.

They acknowledged the threat, They correctly surmised that the threat was to the citadel. What they failed to figure out was the means Saren would use carry out the threat. Besides, that was the judgement of the council, if the council came to a different conclusion, Udina would have supported that conclusion instead. Grounding you was the council's decision not his. Only they have the authority to do that.. You can't fault Udina's judgement in that regard because it wasn't his decision to make.

Modifié par mosor, 16 octobre 2010 - 02:14 .

[Nightwriter]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

Is Udina that smart? He did want to send the citadel fleet into the traverse after Saren...

Is it weird that I had never once considered this?

[Casuist]

mosor wrote...
Hard to argue a point, if you don't point out what information I said was erronious. It states in ME1 that they're doing a joint species effort to stop Saren by posting ships around Mass Relays, and Udina says this is an opportunity for humanity. The only opportunity that could possibly be relevant  is getting closer to an actual council seat. Other than that, I don't know what you're talking about.

There's no indication humanity is getting anything at all out of that "arrangement."

A blanket statement you don't support with any facts. I can't take your accusation seriously.

"The council will handle this, with my help of course." - not a statement you put into a story for no purpose

They acknowledged the threat, They correctly surmised that the threat was to the citadel. What they failed to figure out was the means Saren would use carry out the threat. Besides, that was the judgement of the council, if the council came to a different conclusion, Udina would have supported that conclusion instead. Grounding you was the council's decision not his. Only they have the authority to do that.. You can't fault Udina's judgement in that regard because it wasn't his decision to make.

...as a matter of fact, they don't ground you. They do have the authority to remove your status, but they do not take that step. Udina has the authority to lock down the normandy, a matter of Alliance jurisdiction, and he is personally responsible for that order. As a matter of fact, if the normandy is not locked down, the council does not have the authority to deny its mission to Ilos if Shepard's spectre status were somehow revoked (they could manipulate the situation diplomatically if they desired). In the end, the council encouraged Udina to lockdown the normandy. He had all the authority necesdsary to say "no." 

Modifié par Casuist, 16 octobre 2010 - 02:35 .

[Thane19]

Anderson is obviously the choice that Bioware wants people to make- off the top of your head, why wouldn't you pick the guy that had stuck with you through it all over the guy who was merely an opportunist?

However, I'm betting there will be consequences in ME3- Anderson strikes me as the kind of guy who is going to get lost in politics, whereas Udina is a cutthroat SoB that can handle himself. Not a moral person, but a good politician.

Modifié par Thane19, 16 octobre 2010 - 02:40 .

[tommyt_1994]

Nightwriter wrote...

tommyt_1994 wrote...

Is Udina that smart? He did want to send the citadel fleet into the traverse after Saren...

Is it weird that I had never once considered this?

Not at all. I was only reminded because I'm playing ME1 right now and I just had that conversation.

[Nightwriter]

I wonder, if Udina had headed the Council, would he have sent fleets into the Terminus Systems and triggered galactic war?

[tommyt_1994]

Nightwriter wrote...

I wonder, if Udina had headed the Council, would he have sent fleets into the Terminus Systems and triggered galactic war?

It sure sounds like thats what he would have done. 'The citadel fleet could secure the region and prevent the geth from attacking any more of our colonies." That's a very narrow-minded decision IMO.

[mosor]

Casuist wrote...

There's no indication humanity is getting anything at all out of that "arrangement."

Don't be naive. Getting a council seat is a one of the themes in ME1. Maybe they wouldn't have gotten a seat right away, but steps like working with the council fleet in establishing security leads you down that road.

"The council will handle this, with my help of course." - not a statement you put into a story for no purpose

Whats that statement have to do with Udina's motivations endangering Humanity? His motivations were getting a seat on the council. That's a plus for humanity. Him, along with the council not buying your reaper story isn't a motivation.

...as a matter of fact, they don't ground you. They do have the authority to remove your status, but they do not take that step. Udina has the authority to lock down the normandy, a matter of Alliance jurisdiction, and he is personally responsible for that order. As a matter of fact, if the normandy is not locked down, the council does not have the authority to deny its mission to Ilos if Shepard's spectre status were somehow revoked (they could manipulate the situation diplomatically if they desired). In the end, the council encouraged Udina to lockdown the normandy. He had all the authority necesdsary to say "no." 

Sorry but you're wrong. No one under council juristiction can interfere with a spectre's investigation. That means the alliance can't arrest you, they can't detain you and they can't ground you. The only way they can do that is if the council orders them to do it. The fact is the Citadel is council juristicion, and the alliance has a tower there at their pleasure. So even if Shepard gave up his spectre status, the council  still has the right to detain that ship. Udina has to comply with that order.  Besides, Udina had a choice, support the council and lay another brick to on the road to a human council seat or support an officer with a story bordering on fantasy. Udina made the wrong choice, but his choice wasn't illogical or even really malicious.

Modifié par mosor, 16 octobre 2010 - 03:25 .

[Nightwriter]

Mosor and Casuist, you're making the rest of us feel ignored with this exclusive one-on-one debate you're having. We feel neglected. It is most unfair.

Also: arguing the finer points of Alliance/Council jurisdiction seems futile to me. The game itself seems to pointedly avoid this issue. Shepard will say s/he is not part of the Alliance anymore, yet others will say "you're still part of the Alliance". Shepard's a Spectre, yet the crew is "still Alliance", and conforms to Alliance regulations of fraternization?

It is quite confusing. Best not put too much stock in it.

[mosor]

Nightwriter wrote...

Mosor and Casuist, you're making the rest of us feel ignored with this exclusive one-on-one debate you're having. We feel neglected. It is most unfair.

Also: arguing the finer points of Alliance/Council jurisdiction seems futile to me. The game itself seems to pointedly avoid this issue. Shepard will say s/he is not part of the Alliance anymore, yet others will say "you're still part of the Alliance". Shepard's a Spectre, yet the crew is "still Alliance", and conforms to Alliance regulations of fraternization?

It is quite confusing. Best not put too much stock in it.

You don't need to be confused. Whether Shepard is still aliance or exclusively a council spectre or both is inconsequential. The council rules the citadel. if they say lock down the Normandy, it gets locked down. The alliance tower isn't some diplmoatic oasis of humanity. As I said above, it operates at the pleasure of the council. To thumb your nose at a council order, is just inviting eviction from  the facility. That's not in humanity's interest.

Modifié par mosor, 16 octobre 2010 - 03:38 .

[Yojimbo_Ltd]

I think that they both suck. Seriously, are there no other politicians representing humanity?

[Nightwriter]

mosor wrote...

You don't need to be confused. Whether Shepard is still aliance or exclusively a council spectre or both is inconsequential. The council rules the citadel. if they say lock down the Normandy, it gets locked down. The alliance tower isn't some diplmoatic oasis of humanity. As I said above, it operates at the pleasure of the council. To thumb your nose at a council order, is just inviting eviction from  the facility. That's not in humanity's interest.

I still don't understand. Udina is the one who grounds the Normandy.

Obviously your logic somehow doesn't apply, or else Udina would never have dared to ground the Normandy.

[mosor]

Nightwriter wrote...

mosor wrote...

You don't need to be confused. Whether Shepard is still aliance or exclusively a council spectre or both is inconsequential. The council rules the citadel. if they say lock down the Normandy, it gets locked down. The alliance tower isn't some diplmoatic oasis of humanity. As I said above, it operates at the pleasure of the council. To thumb your nose at a council order, is just inviting eviction from  the facility. That's not in humanity's interest.

I still don't understand. Udina is the one who grounds the Normandy.

Obviously your logic somehow doesn't apply, or else Udina would never have dared to ground the Normandy.

The logic does apply because Udina would never have dared to ground the Normandy without the Council ordering Shepard not to go to ilos and consenting to detention.

Modifié par mosor, 16 octobre 2010 - 04:03 .

[Casuist]

mosor wrote...

Sorry but you're wrong. No one under council juristiction can interfere with a spectre's investigation. That means the alliance can't arrest you, they can't detain you and they can't ground you.

The normandy is an alliance vessel. The alliance decides where it goes. They put it under Shepard's command, but if they take it away, Shepard is a spectre without a ship, and, more importantly, without the only ship that can accomplish the mission in question. If you listen to the council meeting, this is the only relevant order ever given (lockdown).  

The only way they can do that is if the council orders them to do it. The fact is the Citadel is council juristicion, and the alliance has a tower there at their pleasure. So even if Shepard gave up his spectre status, the council  still has the right to detain that ship.

...which, without cause, would be a diplomatic incident.

Udina has to comply with that order.

No, he doesn't.

Besides, Udina had a choice, support the council and lay another brick to on the road to a human council seat or support an officer with a story bordering on fantasy.

Saren's attacks are pretty damn concrete.

Udina made the wrong choice, but his choice wasn't illogical or even really malicious.

It was illogical, because the threat was clear, and there was little justification for preventing Shepard from doing exactly what he/she set out and did. (I can't be discreet because I blew up Saren's base on Virmire? First of all, that was your STG captain's idea. Second of all, it had to be done, and none of you have said anything to the contrary.) It was malicious insofar as it was motivated by Udina gaining personal influence - the implication of his conduct and statements.

[Randy1012]

Yojimbo_Ltd wrote...

I think that they both suck. Seriously, are there no other politicians representing humanity?

If ME were real, no doubt there would have been a much longer and more complicated selection process with probably dozens of human individuals vying for the position. Various candidates likely would have included Ambassador Udina, Alliance President Huerta, Admiral Hackett, Captain Anderson, and Charles Saracino. But since Mass Effect is a video game, there isn't enough room for that kind of complexity, and so it's boiled down to two simple choices.