268 réponses à ce sujet

[mosor]

[quote]Casuist wrote...


The normandy is an alliance vessel. The alliance decides where it goes. They put it under Shepard's command, but if they take it away, Shepard is a spectre without a ship, and, more importantly, without the only ship that can accomplish the mission in question. If you listen to the council meeting, this is the only relevant order ever given (lockdown). 
[/quote]

Udina doesn't have the authority to lockdown an alliance military vessel since he is a civilian. He would need permission from the alliance brass, or the council that rules the station.

[/quote]


[quote]
Udina has to comply with that order.
[/quote]
[quote]
No, he doesn't.
[/quote]

Not complying with that order would be the action that causes a diplomatic incident.

[quote]
Saren's attacks are pretty damn concrete.

[/quote]

You're implying that Udina and the council were oblivious to Saren's threat and didn't take it seriously. That's not true. They just thought the conduit wasn't important, that it's a wild goose chase to get the council to lose focus on the threat by taking their fleet away from the citadel.


[quote]
It was illogical, because the threat was clear, and there was little justification for preventing Shepard from doing exactly what he/she set out and did. (I can't be discreet because I blew up Saren's base on Virmire? First of all, that was your STG captain's idea. Second of all, it had to be done, and none of you have said anything to the contrary.) It was malicious insofar as it was motivated by Udina gaining personal influence - the implication of his conduct and statements.
[/quote]

Irrlevent. They acknowledged the threat and took it seriously. As I said above, they didn't take the reapers or the conduit seriously. Wrong move, but certainly not illogical.

As for Udina motivated by gaining personal influence. How is that malicious? Opportunistic sure, but mallicious? The council ordered you not to go to ilos. Unless you can prove that it was Udina that influenced the council not to take the reapers and conduit seriously rather than the turian councillor, then there is nothing malicious about it. Udina saw an opportunity to suck up to the council and he took it. The only possible reward he could desire by sucking up is humanity getting a council seat and hopefully him sitting on it.

Modifié par mosor, 16 octobre 2010 - 04:27 .

[Nightwriter]

mosor wrote...

The logic does apply because Udina would never have dared to ground the Normandy without the Council ordering Shepard not to go to ilos and consenting to detention.

... The Council ordered Shepard not to go to Ilos?

I think what they said was they weren't going to go to Ilos. Or send a fleet to Ilos. Or admit Saren was going to Ilos. Or take any action that in any way related to information about Saren and Ilos.

Then Shepard had to react like a tactless maniac. But if Shepard had not freaked out, I think they would have let Shepard go about his/her business.

[mosor]

Nightwriter wrote...

mosor wrote...

The logic does apply because Udina would never have dared to ground the Normandy without the Council ordering Shepard not to go to ilos and consenting to detention.

... The Council ordered Shepard not to go to Ilos?

I think what they said was they weren't going to go to Ilos. Or send a fleet to Ilos. Or admit Saren was going to Ilos. Or take any action that in any way related to information about Saren and Ilos.

Then Shepard had to react like a tactless maniac. But if Shepard had not freaked out, I think they would have let Shepard go about his/her business.

I doubt it. Maybe if Shepard was allowed more than 10 charm points. The lockdown order was predetermined by all the authorities involved. The alliance brass and the council. Hell even Anderson knew about the decision beforehand but couldn't warn Shepard. They wanted that state of the art ship defending the citadel against Saren, not running off on what they felt was some wild goose chase. That lockdown order was only given if Shepard refused to play ball.  It wasn't some spur of the moment decision by Udina.

Modifié par mosor, 16 octobre 2010 - 05:08 .

[GodWood]

I'd have prefered a third option.

Modifié par GodWood, 16 octobre 2010 - 05:18 .

[Casuist]

mosor wrote...
Udina doesn't have the authority to lockdown an alliance military vessel since he is a civilian. He would need permission from the alliance brass, or the council that rules the station.

....and giving a civilian authority over the military is positively unheard of!

It's not as if the lockdown override is removable from Udina's office (wait, it is... granted that's the far less awesome rout Anderson can take)

I'm not going to keep arguing over basic facts of which you can make yourself aware.

, where you can hear Udina give the instruction that the Normandy is locked down. 

Not complying with that order would be the action that causes a diplomatic incident.

The citadel council does not have the authority to order around the military forces and personnel of a member species.

You're implying that Udina and the council were oblivious to Saren's threat and didn't take it seriously. That's not true. They just thought the conduit wasn't important, that it's a wild goose chase to get the council to lose focus on the threat by taking their fleet away from the citadel.

So unimportant he's spent the whole game looking for it. So unimportant that he goes to all the Ilos to find it. As Shepard points out- if they don't want to send the fleet, then send the Normandy.

Irrlevent. They acknowledged the threat and took it seriously. As I said above, they didn't take the reapers or the conduit seriously. Wrong move, but certainly not illogical.

Given the technological advancement offered by prothean artifacts in the past, not considering the conduit worth pursuing is, in fact, illogical.

As for Udina motivated by gaining personal influence. How is that malicious? Opportunistic sure, but mallicious?

I remind you, again, that his responsibility is the reputation and furtherance of humanity's goals, not his own.

[SwordsmanofShadow]

To be quite honest, I would have picked Admiral Hackett if I could. The man is know to be an effective military strategist (which people liken Anderson for), but has displayed a pension for politics (which is why some choose Udina). I think he could have done a much better job than both Anderson and Udina- but wasn't included because Bioware didn't have a model for him.



Still, I think Hackett was the most logical choice, but insinuating circumstances didn't allow him into place.

[Nightwriter]

mosor wrote...

I doubt it. Maybe if Shepard was allowed more than 10 charm points. The lockdown order was predetermined by all the authorities involved. The alliance brass and the council. Hell even Anderson knew about the decision beforehand but couldn't warn Shepard. They wanted that state of the art ship defending the citadel against Saren, not running off on what they felt was some wild goose chase. That lockdown order was only given if Shepard refused to play ball.  It wasn't some spur of the moment decision by Udina.

We are meant to think Udina is responsible, and the scene clearly plays out in such a way that it paints Udina as a traitor to your mission. Furthermore, we don't know Udina wasn't the one who suggested it in the first place.

I only think all of this because an override button for the lockdown was in Udina's office.

[Nightwriter]

I see no evidence Anderson is naive. After the first Council meeting Anderson explains everything from the Council's perspective on humanity to why Udina is so frustrated.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 16 octobre 2010 - 05:36 .

[Nightwriter]

Haven't read Retribution. Am becoming continually intrigued by the way you object to people treating you well.

[Spornicus]

Udina. Anderson can't really grasp interstellar politics like Udina can. He's a nice guy, but he's a soldier. He needs to be commanding troops, not arguing semantics. Leave the boring work for Udina, because he seems to revel in it. And, contrary to popular opinion, Udina does have humanity's best interests. He fought VERY aggressively to get humanity on the council (or to make the council human in a renegade ending). He just knows you can't bludgeon your way through politics.

[Casuist]

To save you reading the book (though it isn't bad... Drew could stand to improve the pacing of his novels), if you think that trying to take down a human supremacist organization that is infiltrating human government and the military is treasonous, you'll agree with him. Otherwise you probably won't.

[Dave of Canada]

Udina is better for the long-term, Anderson for the short-term. Anderson is incapable of being a political figure, he fails to handle multiple scenarios that threaten the Galaxy while Udina's iron fist smacks these threats in the face and stops it.



Udina is likely to screw you over with the Reapers, Anderson is likely to screw over the Galaxy in the end. I'm always one for the mission first and pick Anderson, though.

[Nightwriter]

Poor, poor Shand. What has that mean old world done to you, Shand?

[StarcloudSWG]

Anderson and Udina both have the interests of humanity at heart. The difference is, Udina's primary interest is humanity, and humanity only. Anderson seems to have the broader, longer term view.

[tommyt_1994]

I go with Anderson for the same reasons I hand over the Collector Base to TIM, he's focused on the reapers and trusts Shepard. That trust is not something Udina displays. A time may come where I need someone on the council to back me up in order to gain some support against the reapers or what have you. Anderson is the guy who will stand up for Shepard, Udina appears to be more like the rest of the council.

I just need Anderson to be the human council member until the reaper threat has passed, then someone more suitable fo the long term role can step in later.

Modifié par tommyt_1994, 16 octobre 2010 - 06:47 .

[Dave of Canada]

I forget where it was but isn't there something that says Batarians were building a terrorist weapon, it's fate depending entirely on who's on the Council?

[StarcloudSWG]

Shandepared wrote...

StarcloudSWG wrote...

 Anderson seems to have the broader, longer term view.

He has the seditious globalist view held by modern American leftists.

"Of course the Council would love to have us if we did everything they told us to! The problem is, there wouldn't be much in it for us."

Who said that?

[Dave of Canada]

Shandepared wrote...

Anderson tries to convince them to stop by easing trade restrictions. Udina sends N7 marines to blow up the factory making the weapon.

Ah thanks. Doesn't Anderson's plan backfire?