268 réponses à ce sujet

[lovgreno]

In ME 1 both Udina and Anderson have shown the skill, dedication and bravery to be good at representing humanity in the council. Since they both was wise enough to work together for the greater good despite their personal grudges they have proven mature enough for the important role as diplomats.

[mosor]

Nightwriter wrote...

mosor wrote...

I doubt it. Maybe if Shepard was allowed more than 10 charm points. The lockdown order was predetermined by all the authorities involved. The alliance brass and the council. Hell even Anderson knew about the decision beforehand but couldn't warn Shepard. They wanted that state of the art ship defending the citadel against Saren, not running off on what they felt was some wild goose chase. That lockdown order was only given if Shepard refused to play ball.  It wasn't some spur of the moment decision by Udina.

We are meant to think Udina is responsible, and the scene clearly plays out in such a way that it paints Udina as a traitor to your mission. Furthermore, we don't know Udina wasn't the one who suggested it in the first place.

I only think all of this because an override button for the lockdown was in Udina's office.

Sure, Udina doesn't stick up for Shepard. Instead, he sides with the council. Thats a very good reason to view him as a traitor to your mission. However, it doesn't take away from the fact, that all this was planned in advance.

[mosor]

Casuist wrote...

....and giving a civilian authority over the military is positively unheard of!

Yes it's quite unheard of. This goes to show that this whole thing was planned in advance with everyone but Shepard involved.

It's not as if the lockdown override is removable from Udina's office (wait, it is... granted that's the far less awesome rout Anderson can take)

So what. Those lockdowns controls in Udina's office could be used for any ship. Thise controls don't know what ship they're locking down. It doesn't mean Udina could have done it without a go ahead from the proper authorities.

, where you can hear Udina give the instruction that the Normandy is locked down. 

What you're not wrapping your head around is that Udina is simply the messenger of a decision already made. If Shepard had played ball and decided to help defend the citadel against Saren, and not run off on what they felt was a wild goose chase, there wouldn't have been a lockdown. The lockdown option was pre-agreed in case Shep didn't play ball. Anderson knew this was going to happen. It didn't take him by suprise.

The citadel council does not have the authority to order around the military forces and personnel of a member species.

A government doesn't have the authority to charge a murdering foreign
diplomat. They can make a request to that foreign diplomats government
to press charges. If they don't, there will be a diplomatic incident.  The alliance is on their station. If the Citadel makes a request, the alliance has to take it seriously.

So unimportant he's spent the whole game looking for it. So unimportant that he goes to all the Ilos to find it. As Shepard points out- if they don't want to send the fleet, then send the Normandy.

Udina doesn't spend the entire game looking for it and neither does the council. The mission was to take down Saren, and send the Normandy rather than the fleet after him.

Given the technological advancement offered by prothean artifacts in the past, not considering the conduit worth pursuing is, in fact, illogical.

Wrong. The fact that they believed the reapers and the conduit is a fantasy neuters your point. To prove it you have show that not believing Shepard was illogical. That a fantastic story about some lost prothean artifact and reapers should be taken seriously from their perspective, when they could have a state of the art ship defending the citadel.

I remind you, again, that his responsibility is the reputation and furtherance of humanity's goals, not his own.

As long as his ambitions aligned with human interests, then I really don't see a problem.

Modifié par mosor, 16 octobre 2010 - 05:17 .

[brfritos]

mosor wrote...

What you're not wrapping your head around is that Udina is simply the messenger of a decision already made. If Shepard had played ball and decided to help defend the citadel against Saren, and not run off on what they felt was a wild goose chase, there wouldn't have been a lockdown. The lockdown option was pre-agreed in case Shep didn't play ball. Anderson knew this was going to happen. It didn't take him by suprise.

If Shepard didn't runned like hell and DID the wild goose chase, bye bye Citadel and Galaxy.
Shepard only succeeded because s/he used the conduit and was able to attack Saren and the geth by surprise.
People usually forget that part.

Also, when Shepard most need Udina help he wanted to play Machiavelli 101.
He should support Shepard, not act like a coward and hide behind a desk.

And it appears that Udina forget one of the main lessons from him: "The Romans never allowed a trouble spot to remain simply to avoid going to war over it, because they knew that wars don't just go away, they are only postponed to someone else's advantage".
He is so obsessed with the gains Shepard gave to the Alliance and humanity that this blind his capacity to reason.

Modifié par brfritos, 16 octobre 2010 - 10:50 .

[Nightwriter]

mosor wrote...

Sure, Udina doesn't stick up for Shepard. Instead, he sides with the council. Thats a very good reason to view him as a traitor to your mission. However, it doesn't take away from the fact, that all this was planned in advance.

I don't see how it matters.

The gist of all this is Anderson acknowledges the Reaper threat and Udina is too politically focused to see it.

If you are willing to overlook this because Udina is the renegade choice, it's perfectly fine. We all make decisions based on preference. No biggie.

[TMA LIVE]

I chose Anderson, thought he's logically not the best choice since he doesn't know anything about politics, I'd rather him then Udina. However, I would like someone new to take Anderson's place that knows more about politics. Who? I don't know.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 16 octobre 2010 - 11:28 .

[Dean_the_Young]

When people don't believe you because you lack solid proof of the extreme threat only you claim, them not supporting you can't be fairly called choosing politics over survival: the entire basis of a choice is a recognition of two different aspects, and Shepard's visions were lacking corroboration. It's choosing politics over claptrap, even if that clap trap does turn out to be right.



At the same time, favoring someone because they stood by your claptrap without solid reason isn't necessarily a virtue, and certainly isn't grounds as a qualification for promotion. Being right by chance isn't proof of wisdom or foresight or anything: it's simply an example of luck, which is not an enduring trait.



Too many people, I fear, choose Anderson to be appointed to a position of galactic power and influence because they because he's a sympathetic character, because he agreed with them, because he supported Shepard from the start without hesitation (or much proof). Not because he had more skill, experience, temperment, or insight to the job at hand. Those who chose on the first grounds, and not on the later, is little more than nepotism.

[OverlordNexas]

 Doesn't really matter now that Retribution came out and declared that Udina is the councilor.

[brfritos]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Too many people, I fear, choose Anderson to be appointed to a position of galactic power and influence because they because he's a sympathetic character, because he agreed with them, because he supported Shepard from the start without hesitation (or much proof). Not because he had more skill, experience, temperment, or insight to the job at hand. Those who chose on the first grounds, and not on the later, is little more than nepotism.

Actually even Udina agree with Shepard when you kill the Council and justify Anderson's appointment because you'll go to war with the Reapers, so you need a human lead-Council with military experience.

Usually when I save the Coucil I pick Udina, even disliking him, because you'll need someone with more political experience.
Anderson and Bailey also give this very impression in ME2 with Udina appointed and the Council alive.

I prefer to use logic when choosing and with the Council dead there's more strong points to pick Anderson.
But with the Council alive it makes more sense to choose Udina.
This not hide the fact that Udina prefers to put politics ahead of action, even when the situation demands a action, not political correctness.

[Dean_the_Young]

I'm not talking about Udina's reasoning. I'm talking about the reasoning some people give, with no critical thinking involved. Purely emotional 'I like him, therefore he must be good'.

[TMA LIVE]

Isn't Anderson more respected though in the public, despite that he hates his job?

[Nightwriter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

When people don't believe you because you lack solid proof of the extreme threat only you claim, them not supporting you can't be fairly called choosing politics over survival: the entire basis of a choice is a recognition of two different aspects, and Shepard's visions were lacking corroboration. It's choosing politics over claptrap, even if that clap trap does turn out to be right.

At the same time, favoring someone because they stood by your claptrap without solid reason isn't necessarily a virtue, and certainly isn't grounds as a qualification for promotion. Being right by chance isn't proof of wisdom or foresight or anything: it's simply an example of luck, which is not an enduring trait.

Too many people, I fear, choose Anderson to be appointed to a position of galactic power and influence because they because he's a sympathetic character, because he agreed with them, because he supported Shepard from the start without hesitation (or much proof). Not because he had more skill, experience, temperment, or insight to the job at hand. Those who chose on the first grounds, and not on the later, is little more than nepotism.

By the time I pick Anderson, he has proven to me he can not only think politically, but he can put aside his personal feelings in the interests of the greater political good.

[Dean_the_Young]

Then consider it not aimed aimed at you.

[Nightwriter]

K.

I should also take this moment to repeat, once again, that I believe they should have done more with Udina's character.

[Dean_the_Young]

Of all the complaints about how the Council seemingly backtracked on you, I hate Udina's most. The rest of the Council never really admitted to the Reapers in the epilogue, not as the Reapers as a whole, but Udina did.

A number of people in the past have talked about how they're convinced the Council is secretly preparing. In general, I don't buy that argument. But Udina, I could see doing it. But still, him, of all people, should have been able to go to Shepard 'yes, I believe in the Reapers, but our position is far too fragile to go about preparing openly. Let me get Humanity firmly established on (as) the Council, and then we can prepare in full, rather than in secret as we are now.'


But still, every time I play I have to go for Udina's councilor speech. They should have made him a Spectre.

[mosor]

brfritos wrote...

This not hide the fact that Udina prefers to put politics ahead of action, even when the situation demands a action, not political correctness.

Kinda weird how it plays out in ME2 though. Anderson is more diplomatic, while Udina is a man of action.

[Nightwriter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

They should have made him a Spectre.

Yeah, I nearly died laughing. And the music just made it priceless.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 17 octobre 2010 - 12:05 .

[Mecha Tengu]

just install uldina as the puppet and the guy dealing with the paperwork



we need anderson on the front lines, admiral ackbaring the human fleet

[tommyt_1994]

I simply can't get past Udina's want to send the Citadel Fleet into the traverse to secure the region from Saren attacking anymore colonies. Can he not see how that could possibly end in disaster? I'm suppose to support this guy as a council member?

[brfritos]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'm not talking about Udina's reasoning. I'm talking about the reasoning some people give, with no critical thinking involved. Purely emotional 'I like him, therefore he must be good'.

Well, Bioware said that one of the main reasons for playing ME2 is the "intense and emotional playgame", so what can I say?
You can blame them for being emotional.

People are stupid, you know. 

[Alessar]

If Shepard wanted to show everybody proof couldn't he just embrace eternity with the asari councilor >.>?



On a more serious note, I picked Udina, Anderson isn't a politician. This isn't about what is convenient for me, but rather what is convenient for humanity. At said point and time of Udina's actions there is no evidence besides my word that reapers exist. Udina merely took the route that would secure human interests. Even with you going rogue and stealing the ship, Udina still wins point for the alliance and humanity by not catering to you.

[Dean_the_Young]

All an asari mind link shows is sincerity of the claim, not the validity.Shepard could take lcd and it would be just as sincere.

[Nightwriter]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

I simply can't get past Udina's want to send the Citadel Fleet into the traverse to secure the region from Saren attacking anymore colonies. Can he not see how that could possibly end in disaster? I'm suppose to support this guy as a council member?

It's like the Luke/Leia kiss. We pretend it didn't happen.

[Alessar]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

All an asari mind link shows is sincerity of the claim, not the validity.Shepard could take lcd and it would be just as sincere.

So how were a cipher and relay locations passed along in ME 1 through it?

Any clarification would be appreciated, mass effect wiki doesn't say much.

Modifié par Alessar, 17 octobre 2010 - 02:32 .

[spthompson]

I could never bring myself to chose Udina... I tried but just couldn't do it.  :-)  It's like the guy tries so hard to be obnoxious!