221 réponses à ce sujet

[TonyTheBossDanza123]

Sabariel wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sabariel wrote...
What benefit would come of being able to off little Timmy on-screen?

Deeper emotional consequences for the player character who chose the "Kill Connor" solution to the quest.  Revulsion and horror at the tragic fate of the boy are perfectly relevant emotions to convey for that scene.  To exclude them is either an artistic decision (open to criticism over the choice) or censorship (open to criticism over the law) .

I would say that artistic reasons for excluding the scene are more valid, such as that showing the death is gratuitous or exploitative.    

I'm typically against calls for censorship in any form, however.

As I said before, you don't need an on-screen throat slitting to have a deep emotional experience. I felt guilty enough with Connor's off-screen death as it was.

But off screen will never be as deep as on screen. It's holding back the full extent because some people can't handle it.

Censorship is telling a man he can't have steak because a baby can't chew it.

[Marionetten]

What was perfectly acceptable ten years ago no longer is. Unless we're talking about movies, that is. No problem with eating fetuses there. Got to love the idiocy of society.

[TonyTheBossDanza123]

Marionetten wrote...

What was perfectly acceptable ten years ago no longer is. Unless we're talking about movies, that is. No problem with eating fetuses there. Got to love the idiocy of society.

Conveniently that was before video games became so mainstream. My god we need an industry crash badly.

[Eski.Moe]

Sabariel wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sabariel wrote...
What benefit would come of being able to off little Timmy on-screen?

Deeper emotional consequences for the player character who chose the "Kill Connor" solution to the quest.  Revulsion and horror at the tragic fate of the boy are perfectly relevant emotions to convey for that scene.  To exclude them is either an artistic decision (open to criticism over the choice) or censorship (open to criticism over the law) .

I would say that artistic reasons for excluding the scene are more valid, such as that showing the death is gratuitous or exploitative.    

I'm typically against calls for censorship in any form, however.

As I said before, you don't need an on-screen throat slitting to have a deep emotional experience. I felt guilty enough with Connor's off-screen death as it was.

Word.
Heck, it's not exclusive to Connor as well. I felt horrible when I found out that the blacksmith in Redcliffe had hanged himself since I didn't find his daughter (read: I forgot to go looking for her). It just hit me out of nowhere.
I didn't need to see him climb the chair, tie the noose around his neck and leap nor did I need to hear the crack as his neck broke or the sounds of suffocation as he died to be emotionally impacted. Likewise, the consequence of your actions by having some children die might just cause a similar reaction without having to actually see it happen.

[upsettingshorts]

I would suggest starting a new thread that doesn't specifically refer to violence against children and focus it on the censorship portrayal of violence in Dragon Age 2, to be honest.

The topic title and narrow focus of the thread is too provocative.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 16 octobre 2010 - 12:13 .

[Herr Uhl]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
But are you denying that instinct drives us to protect and take care of things that have similar features to small children? It comes with that.

I'm denying nothing.  I'm simply saying that it isn't relevant to the discussion.  No actual children are in danger.  No actual children are being harmed.  This thread is either about the artistic merits of violence or censorship of violence, depending on Bioware's motivations for killing Connor off camera.  Either is a valid debate.

Yes, but the question I answered was why it was seen as worse to kill a kid on-screen than an innocent adult.

I personally wouldn't care, but it really isn't that hard to see why some would.

[TonyTheBossDanza123]

Herr Uhl wrote...


I personally wouldn't care, but it really isn't that hard to see why some would.

Indeed, it's much to easy to understand why: Because people are idiots.

[Maconbar]

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sabariel wrote...
What benefit would come of being able to off little Timmy on-screen?

Deeper emotional consequences for the player character who chose the "Kill Connor" solution to the quest.  Revulsion and horror at the tragic fate of the boy are perfectly relevant emotions to convey for that scene.  To exclude them is either an artistic decision (open to criticism over the choice) or censorship (open to criticism over the law) .

I would say that artistic reasons for excluding the scene are more valid, such as that showing the death is gratuitous or exploitative.    

I'm typically against calls for censorship in any form, however.

As I said before, you don't need an on-screen throat slitting to have a deep emotional experience. I felt guilty enough with Connor's off-screen death as it was.

But off screen will never be as deep as on screen. It's holding back the full extent because some people can't handle it.

Censorship is telling a man he can't have steak because a baby can't chew it.

Please. Tony Danza would never support this.

[TonyTheBossDanza123]

Maconbar wrote...

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sabariel wrote...
What benefit would come of being able to off little Timmy on-screen?

Deeper emotional consequences for the player character who chose the "Kill Connor" solution to the quest.  Revulsion and horror at the tragic fate of the boy are perfectly relevant emotions to convey for that scene.  To exclude them is either an artistic decision (open to criticism over the choice) or censorship (open to criticism over the law) .

I would say that artistic reasons for excluding the scene are more valid, such as that showing the death is gratuitous or exploitative.    

I'm typically against calls for censorship in any form, however.

As I said before, you don't need an on-screen throat slitting to have a deep emotional experience. I felt guilty enough with Connor's off-screen death as it was.

But off screen will never be as deep as on screen. It's holding back the full extent because some people can't handle it.

Censorship is telling a man he can't have steak because a baby can't chew it.

Please. Tony Danza would never support this.

With a van like that? Hell yea he would.

[Maconbar]

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sabariel wrote...
What benefit would come of being able to off little Timmy on-screen?

Deeper emotional consequences for the player character who chose the "Kill Connor" solution to the quest.  Revulsion and horror at the tragic fate of the boy are perfectly relevant emotions to convey for that scene.  To exclude them is either an artistic decision (open to criticism over the choice) or censorship (open to criticism over the law) .

I would say that artistic reasons for excluding the scene are more valid, such as that showing the death is gratuitous or exploitative.    

I'm typically against calls for censorship in any form, however.

As I said before, you don't need an on-screen throat slitting to have a deep emotional experience. I felt guilty enough with Connor's off-screen death as it was.

But off screen will never be as deep as on screen. It's holding back the full extent because some people can't handle it.

Censorship is telling a man he can't have steak because a baby can't chew it.

Please. Tony Danza would never support this.

With a van like that? Hell yea he would.

That was just a role he was playing. 

[Icinix]

Censorship is telling a man he's been barred access from certain websites for his own good, but not allowing him to know what those websites were.  Leaving the issue that they could be anything at all, such as how those same people might be doing evil, evil things.

I'm very anti-censorship incidentally, but I would probably say killing Connor off-screen is more a design decision than censorship. You know it happens, you just don't see it.

Not particularly leaning towards either way but just wanted to throw my weight behind anti-censorship, because, well because I have the freedom too.

[Spartansfan8888]

Icinix wrote...


Censorship is telling a man he's been barred access from certain websites for his own good, but not allowing him to know what those websites were.  Leaving the issue that they could be anything at all, such as how those same people might be doing evil, evil things.

I'm very anti-censorship incidentally, but I would probably say killing Connor off-screen is more a design decision than censorship. You know it happens, you just don't see it.

I agree with you... it's not so much censorship as design.  We know terrible things take place off screen that aren't shown and that's probably just a decision by the devs to exclude images that could potentially be extremely disturbing to some players.  I mean who would enjoy watching  Owen hang himself, Connor die, Leliana or Shianni get raped, or even what the darkspawn do to females to make them broodmothers?

[TonyTheBossDanza123]

Spartansfan8888 wrote...
Leliana or Shianni get raped

wat? When did this happen?

Modifié par TonyTheBossDanza123, 16 octobre 2010 - 12:49 .

[TonyTheBossDanza123]

Maconbar wrote...

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sabariel wrote...
What benefit would come of being able to off little Timmy on-screen?

Deeper emotional consequences for the player character who chose the "Kill Connor" solution to the quest.  Revulsion and horror at the tragic fate of the boy are perfectly relevant emotions to convey for that scene.  To exclude them is either an artistic decision (open to criticism over the choice) or censorship (open to criticism over the law) .

I would say that artistic reasons for excluding the scene are more valid, such as that showing the death is gratuitous or exploitative.    

I'm typically against calls for censorship in any form, however.

As I said before, you don't need an on-screen throat slitting to have a deep emotional experience. I felt guilty enough with Connor's off-screen death as it was.

But off screen will never be as deep as on screen. It's holding back the full extent because some people can't handle it.

Censorship is telling a man he can't have steak because a baby can't chew it.

Please. Tony Danza would never support this.

With a van like that? Hell yea he would.

That was just a role he was playing. 

SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURE

[Ayanko]

Why... why would you even want to see them die?

Was bad enough seeing Oren dead, but even still there was no blood on his corpse. Meh.

[Icinix]

Spartansfan8888 wrote...

Icinix wrote...


Censorship is telling a man he's been barred access from certain websites for his own good, but not allowing him to know what those websites were.  Leaving the issue that they could be anything at all, such as how those same people might be doing evil, evil things.

I'm very anti-censorship incidentally, but I would probably say killing Connor off-screen is more a design decision than censorship. You know it happens, you just don't see it.

I agree with you... it's not so much censorship as design.  We know terrible things take place off screen that aren't shown and that's probably just a decision by the devs to exclude images that could potentially be extremely disturbing to some players.  I mean who would enjoy watching  Owen hang himself, Connor die, Leliana or Shianni get raped, or even what the darkspawn do to females to make them broodmothers?

Bingo.  If I were to be playing Dragon Age, and I started seeing that, I would probably more than likely switch of the game and not play it again.  
Thats my personal opinion though (obviously), if someone is comfortable with watching it then that's their choice and I have no qualms about that or with them.  I am however thankful with BioWares direction to imply the evil in the world without forcing you to watch, purely for my own gameplay enjoyment.  

Yes, I am selfish and self serving. 

[nightcobra]

Icinix wrote...

Spartansfan8888 wrote...

Icinix wrote...


Censorship is telling a man he's been barred access from certain websites for his own good, but not allowing him to know what those websites were.  Leaving the issue that they could be anything at all, such as how those same people might be doing evil, evil things.

I'm very anti-censorship incidentally, but I would probably say killing Connor off-screen is more a design decision than censorship. You know it happens, you just don't see it.

I agree with you... it's not so much censorship as design.  We know terrible things take place off screen that aren't shown and that's probably just a decision by the devs to exclude images that could potentially be extremely disturbing to some players.  I mean who would enjoy watching  Owen hang himself, Connor die, Leliana or Shianni get raped, or even what the darkspawn do to females to make them broodmothers?

Bingo.  If I were to be playing Dragon Age, and I started seeing that, I would probably more than likely switch of the game and not play it again.  
Thats my personal opinion though (obviously), if someone is comfortable with watching it then that's their choice and I have no qualms about that or with them.  I am however thankful with BioWares direction to imply the evil in the world without forcing you to watch, purely for my own gameplay enjoyment.  

Yes, I am selfish and self serving. 

in dragon age's case i thought it was more disturbing imaniging the broodmother being formed than actually seeing it, that poem from hespith really conveyed the terror they were going through

[Icinix]

nightcobra8928 mentioned...

Icinix exclaimed...

Spartansfan8888 chimed...

Icinix mumbled...


Censorship is telling a man he's been barred access from certain websites for his own good, but not allowing him to know what those websites were.  Leaving the issue that they could be anything at all, such as how those same people might be doing evil, evil things.

I'm very anti-censorship incidentally, but I would probably say killing Connor off-screen is more a design decision than censorship. You know it happens, you just don't see it.

I agree with you... it's not so much censorship as design.  We know terrible things take place off screen that aren't shown and that's probably just a decision by the devs to exclude images that could potentially be extremely disturbing to some players.  I mean who would enjoy watching  Owen hang himself, Connor die, Leliana or Shianni get raped, or even what the darkspawn do to females to make them broodmothers?

Bingo.  If I were to be playing Dragon Age, and I started seeing that, I would probably more than likely switch of the game and not play it again.  
Thats my personal opinion though (obviously), if someone is comfortable with watching it then that's their choice and I have no qualms about that or with them.  I am however thankful with BioWares direction to imply the evil in the world without forcing you to watch, purely for my own gameplay enjoyment.  

Yes, I am selfish and self serving. 

in dragon age's case i thought it was more disturbing imaniging the broodmother being formed than actually seeing it, that poem from hespith really conveyed the terror they were going through

Yeah thats one of those strange ones for me.  In that case, my imagination made it more horrific, but had it been on screen, I think it would have been more sickening.  If that makes sense?

[Spartansfan8888]

Icinix wrote...

Spartansfan8888 wrote...

Icinix wrote...


Censorship is telling a man he's been barred access from certain websites for his own good, but not allowing him to know what those websites were.  Leaving the issue that they could be anything at all, such as how those same people might be doing evil, evil things.

I'm very anti-censorship incidentally, but I would probably say killing Connor off-screen is more a design decision than censorship. You know it happens, you just don't see it.

I agree with you... it's not so much censorship as design.  We know terrible things take place off screen that aren't shown and that's probably just a decision by the devs to exclude images that could potentially be extremely disturbing to some players.  I mean who would enjoy watching  Owen hang himself, Connor die, Leliana or Shianni get raped, or even what the darkspawn do to females to make them broodmothers?

Bingo.  If I were to be playing Dragon Age, and I started seeing that, I would probably more than likely switch of the game and not play it again.  
Thats my personal opinion though (obviously), if someone is comfortable with watching it then that's their choice and I have no qualms about that or with them.  I am however thankful with BioWares direction to imply the evil in the world without forcing you to watch, purely for my own gameplay enjoyment.  

Yes, I am selfish and self serving. 

Agreed... yeah I forgot about the whole Cousland saga that someone just mentioned.  Imagine having tostart off the game watching every murder take place.... ya no thanks.

@tonydanz: They were strongly implied during city elf origin for Shianni and during conversation w/ Leliana

[nightcobra]

Icinix wrote...

nightcobra8928 mentioned...

Icinix exclaimed...

Spartansfan8888 chimed...

Icinix mumbled...


Censorship is telling a man he's been barred access from certain websites for his own good, but not allowing him to know what those websites were.  Leaving the issue that they could be anything at all, such as how those same people might be doing evil, evil things.

I'm very anti-censorship incidentally, but I would probably say killing Connor off-screen is more a design decision than censorship. You know it happens, you just don't see it.

I agree with you... it's not so much censorship as design.  We know terrible things take place off screen that aren't shown and that's probably just a decision by the devs to exclude images that could potentially be extremely disturbing to some players.  I mean who would enjoy watching  Owen hang himself, Connor die, Leliana or Shianni get raped, or even what the darkspawn do to females to make them broodmothers?

Bingo.  If I were to be playing Dragon Age, and I started seeing that, I would probably more than likely switch of the game and not play it again.  
Thats my personal opinion though (obviously), if someone is comfortable with watching it then that's their choice and I have no qualms about that or with them.  I am however thankful with BioWares direction to imply the evil in the world without forcing you to watch, purely for my own gameplay enjoyment.  

Yes, I am selfish and self serving. 

in dragon age's case i thought it was more disturbing imaniging the broodmother being formed than actually seeing it, that poem from hespith really conveyed the terror they were going through

Yeah thats one of those strange ones for me.  In that case, my imagination made it more horrific, but had it been on screen, I think it would have been more sickening.  If that makes sense?

well i warn you never to read the manga berserk then, though it is really good it's also PRETTY graphic.

[Ayanko]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

Icinix wrote...

nightcobra8928 mentioned...

Icinix exclaimed...

Spartansfan8888 chimed...

Icinix mumbled...


Censorship is telling a man he's been barred access from certain websites for his own good, but not allowing him to know what those websites were.  Leaving the issue that they could be anything at all, such as how those same people might be doing evil, evil things.

I'm very anti-censorship incidentally, but I would probably say killing Connor off-screen is more a design decision than censorship. You know it happens, you just don't see it.

I agree with you... it's not so much censorship as design.  We know terrible things take place off screen that aren't shown and that's probably just a decision by the devs to exclude images that could potentially be extremely disturbing to some players.  I mean who would enjoy watching  Owen hang himself, Connor die, Leliana or Shianni get raped, or even what the darkspawn do to females to make them broodmothers?

Bingo.  If I were to be playing Dragon Age, and I started seeing that, I would probably more than likely switch of the game and not play it again.  
Thats my personal opinion though (obviously), if someone is comfortable with watching it then that's their choice and I have no qualms about that or with them.  I am however thankful with BioWares direction to imply the evil in the world without forcing you to watch, purely for my own gameplay enjoyment.  

Yes, I am selfish and self serving. 

in dragon age's case i thought it was more disturbing imaniging the broodmother being formed than actually seeing it, that poem from hespith really conveyed the terror they were going through

Yeah thats one of those strange ones for me.  In that case, my imagination made it more horrific, but had it been on screen, I think it would have been more sickening.  If that makes sense?

well i warn you never to read the manga berserk then, though it is really good it's also PRETTY graphic.

I heard that manga was pretty good...
Anyway back to the whole not showing children's deaths. You have to realise that this is a 18+ game, so people with children will be indeed playing the game, I assume that would create them great distress to see a child being killed. Note, ive never killed connor. Ive either saved connor and isolde or let that Anoyying woman die. Well worth being shouted at by alistair afterwards.

[Marionetten]

Icinix wrote...

Bingo.  If I were to be playing Dragon Age, and I started seeing that, I would probably more than likely switch of the game and not play it again.  
Thats my personal opinion though (obviously), if someone is comfortable with watching it then that's their choice and I have no qualms about that or with them.  I am however thankful with BioWares direction to imply the evil in the world without forcing you to watch, purely for my own gameplay enjoyment.  

Yes, I am selfish and self serving. 

Then don't make the decisions which results in Connor dying or Owen hanging himself. This is after all an RPG. A game in which you're supposed to make choices and then deal with the consequences. No one forced you to kill children in Fallout 2. In fact, it was heavily discouraged as you'd become a social pariah. Did the fact that the option was there somehow destroy the game for you?

Personally, I'm sick and tired of developers ****ing out on having actual consequences. Killing a child isn't something which should be taken lightly. It's something which should scar the player. Just imagine if the game would fade to black every single time you got a messy kill.

Modifié par Marionetten, 16 octobre 2010 - 01:15 .

[Icinix]

Marionetten wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Bingo.  If I were to be playing Dragon Age, and I started seeing that, I would probably more than likely switch of the game and not play it again.  
Thats my personal opinion though (obviously), if someone is comfortable with watching it then that's their choice and I have no qualms about that or with them.  I am however thankful with BioWares direction to imply the evil in the world without forcing you to watch, purely for my own gameplay enjoyment.  

Yes, I am selfish and self serving. 

Then don't make the decisions which results in Connor dying or Owen hanging himself. This is after all an RPG. A game in which you're supposed to make choices and then deal with the consequences. No one forced you to kill children in Fallout 2. In fact, it was heavily discouraged as you'd become a social pariah. Did the fact that the option was there somehow destroy the game for you?

That particular response was in regards to numerous other events beyond player control.
And I don't know where you got that 'this destroyed the game for me'.  I suggest reading my previous posts, particularly the parts where I said that I am neither for / nor against this.  Just my own personal enjoyment is geared towards less graphical content.

We'll talk more after you've read the other pages.

[Marionetten]

Icinix wrote...

That particular response was in regards to numerous other events beyond player control.

But you used Connor and Owen as your own examples. Two events which you can easily prevent. In fact, my amoral mage prevented both. If you don't want to see your character murdering a child then don't commit yourself to that path. I highly doubt BioWare will ever force us into it. But if you do commit yourself to that path I think you should damn well reap the consequences instead of enjoying yet another fade to black which cheapens the whole damn thing. Just imagine if George R.R. Martin had simply written FADE TO BLACK every single time something morally questionable came up in his books. That's pretty much what BioWare is doing here.

And while I do agree with you that it's by design I just find the design rubbish.

Icinix wrote...

And I don't know where you got that 'this destroyed the game for me'. I suggest reading my previous posts, particularly the parts where I said that I am neither for / nor against this. Just my own personal enjoyment is geared towards less graphical content.

Yet you're apparently grateful that BioWare is keeping the content out of the game. Content which you would never be exposed to. Not that I understand the whole aversion considering how hyper violent this franchise prides itself on being. It all comes off as rather silly.

Modifié par Marionetten, 16 octobre 2010 - 01:37 .

[TonyTheBossDanza123]

Ayanko wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

Icinix wrote...

nightcobra8928 mentioned...

Icinix exclaimed...

Spartansfan8888 chimed...

Icinix mumbled...


Censorship is telling a man he's been barred access from certain websites for his own good, but not allowing him to know what those websites were.  Leaving the issue that they could be anything at all, such as how those same people might be doing evil, evil things.

I'm very anti-censorship incidentally, but I would probably say killing Connor off-screen is more a design decision than censorship. You know it happens, you just don't see it.

I agree with you... it's not so much censorship as design.  We know terrible things take place off screen that aren't shown and that's probably just a decision by the devs to exclude images that could potentially be extremely disturbing to some players.  I mean who would enjoy watching  Owen hang himself, Connor die, Leliana or Shianni get raped, or even what the darkspawn do to females to make them broodmothers?

Bingo.  If I were to be playing Dragon Age, and I started seeing that, I would probably more than likely switch of the game and not play it again.  
Thats my personal opinion though (obviously), if someone is comfortable with watching it then that's their choice and I have no qualms about that or with them.  I am however thankful with BioWares direction to imply the evil in the world without forcing you to watch, purely for my own gameplay enjoyment.  

Yes, I am selfish and self serving. 

in dragon age's case i thought it was more disturbing imaniging the broodmother being formed than actually seeing it, that poem from hespith really conveyed the terror they were going through

Yeah thats one of those strange ones for me.  In that case, my imagination made it more horrific, but had it been on screen, I think it would have been more sickening.  If that makes sense?

well i warn you never to read the manga berserk then, though it is really good it's also PRETTY graphic.

I heard that manga was pretty good...
Anyway back to the whole not showing children's deaths. You have to realise that this is a 18+ game, so people with children will be indeed playing the game, I assume that would create them great distress to see a child being killed. Note, ive never killed connor. Ive either saved connor and isolde or let that Anoyying woman die. Well worth being shouted at by alistair afterwards.

I feel the need to defer to Marionette's point on this. If they have children they'll be all the more likely to save Connor, and in the broader sense to not kill children. This isn't something that comes out of the blew, it's something that is directly resulted from your actions.

The fact that you're saying you would never want to see it only means the point is true. It's making you personify the character as a real child, making your decisions all the more meaningful.