504 réponses à ce sujet

[Arijharn]

TcheQ wrote...

Samara thinks the Illusive man doesn't have the wisdom to utilise the reaper technology. The virus hidden in the Reaper IFF should be evidence that Cerberus is not as prepared as he thinks. Reaper's are pure evil, there is no good that can come out of genetic experiments and alterations. At best, Cerberus will turn all it's operatives into an army of husks.

I don't think anyone could prepare for every eventuality. Not even EDI, an AI who can process millions of actions far quicker than any human could prepare for it. Therefore I find it unlikely that the Council races could either.

Frankly though, I wouldn't take Samara's word as gospel anyway. She only recently read up on humanity and it's accomplishments and now she's an expert on someone she's never met? I don't know you, but judging from what I know about humanity, you dress yourself using odd coloured socks and occasionally put your t-shirt on back-to-front or inside out.

How apt is my description of you?

[Moiaussi]

Oh come on... why would an IFF, which would basicly broadcast a 'we're friendly' signature, need to be tied in with any of the Normandy's systems anyway? It should have been studied isolated from Normandy's systems and triggered separately from said systems.



That is a very basic precaution.

[TcheQ]

Arijharn wrote...

I don't think anyone could prepare for every eventuality. Not even EDI, an AI who can process millions of actions far quicker than any human could prepare for it. Therefore I find it unlikely that the Council races could either.

Frankly though, I wouldn't take Samara's word as gospel anyway. She only recently read up on humanity and it's accomplishments and now she's an expert on someone she's never met? I don't know you, but judging from what I know about humanity, you dress yourself using odd coloured socks and occasionally put your t-shirt on back-to-front or inside out.

How apt is my description of you?

Samara spent a lot of time with me, like 3, 4,5 months?  That's a lot of time to spend with someone and not understand them.
She's heard the Illusive Man speak (in fact, she was doing the holo-projection when we were in the collector base, and shut it off before he could mouth off at me), and she has access to all the files I do (like who he had sex with this week)

Mordin discusses this topic of the variability of human species, that it is impossible to tell on just a glance. 

I guess we'll see what happens when you let the Illusive Man turn Varren, Yarg and Pyjaks into reapers.

Modifié par TcheQ, 20 octobre 2010 - 08:59 .

[Inverness Moon]

TcheQ wrote...

Samara thinks the Illusive man doesn't have the wisdom to utilise the reaper technology. The virus hidden in the Reaper IFF should be evidence that Cerberus is not as prepared as he thinks. Reaper's are pure evil, there is no good that can come out of genetic experiments and alterations. At best, Cerberus will turn all it's operatives into an army of husks.

Firstly, you can't prepare for every thing that might happen when you don't know what could happen. Anyhow, EDI was built by Cerberus, and is the reason the mission didn't end right there.

You're making a big assumption about what Cerberus would do with the technology. Considering that the base can build reapers, outfitting Alliance ships with reaper offenses and defenses would be one of the better options.

TcheQ wrote...

Samara spent a lot of time with me, like 3, 4,5 months?  That's a lot of time to spend with someone and not understand them.
She's heard the Illusive Man speak (in fact, she was doing the holo-projection when we were in the collector base, and shut it off before he could mouth off at me), and she has access to all the files I do (like who he had sex with this week)

Mordin discusses this topic of the variability of human species, that it is impossible to tell on just a glance. 

I guess we'll see what happens when you let the Illusive Man turn Varren, Yarg and Pyjaks into reapers.

Samara spent a lot of time with Shepard, but she is pretending to know how capable TIM is? She'll also make that comment about TIM even if you don't have her with you at the final battle. Also, the events of LOTSB happen after the suicide mission. However, I think it's amusing that you tried to use the Shadow Broker's dossier as evidence that TIM couldn't handle the collector base.

Anyhow, Samara has no idea what there is to be found in the base so she isn't in any position to judge whether or not TIM is capable of dealing with what might be found.

[Dean_the_Young]

TcheQ wrote...

Samara thinks the Illusive man doesn't have the wisdom to utilise the reaper technology. The virus hidden in the Reaper IFF should be evidence that Cerberus is not as prepared as he thinks. Reaper's are pure evil, there is no good that can come out of genetic experiments and alterations. At best, Cerberus will turn all it's operatives into an army of husks.

You're... not familiar with the Mass Effect lore, are you?

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Oh come on... why would an IFF, which would basicly broadcast a 'we're friendly' signature, need to be tied in with any of the Normandy's systems anyway? It should have been studied isolated from Normandy's systems and triggered separately from said systems.

That is a very basic precaution.

Story device.

Why is the cockpit at the front of the ship? Why does Normandy not have a front window? Why do we hear sounds from a space battle?

[Dean_the_Young]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No,it's pretty much groundless speculation.

Considering, you know, Jacob actually challenges Wilson about how he could have gotten security clearance. Which is a god-damn precaution.

Success of one person does not, and has never, automatically linked to an absence of preparation to the other. You can't even argue that there wasn't such a sub-routine, but that Wilson's means didn't get around it.

Wilson was an agent of the Shadow Broker, who in the story is well capable of beating and then taking advantage of security systems. (Another god-damn precaution.)

And what was the backup plan?

Why should I have to tell you?

Why can't a backup plan also be circumvented?

TIM should have known that the SB would be after Sheps body, where was the Backup plan in case he did? Miranda nearly gets killed, Jacob survives because of Shepard, and they were completely unprepared because Jacob tells you he was in his bunk asleep when the attack happened and that he had been fighting ever since.

Jacob was off shift. That isn't unprepared. That's a natural state of things.

Had I been TIM, I would have provided both the operative in charge, Miranda, as well as the man in charge of security, Jacob, with overarching control of the base software. He's clever enough to put limiting protocols in EDI's programming but he can't put the same kind of protocols in the security systems of his most important and vulnerable operation?

Shadow Broker knows the system manufacturer, has info on what was done, overrides it.

Done.

He can obviously write his own code and any agency or goverment worth their salt produces their own mission-critical hardware so either the mechs were standard issue Hahn-Keddar mechs, which in and of itself is a huge lack of precaution, or they were developed or modified by TIM. In the latter's case, you would expect some sort of protocols in the software that obviously weren't there.

They weren't 'obviously not there'. We don't know if they were there are not. Simply because they were there doesn't mean they weren't overcome.


You seem to have this fascination with a belief that if a system is beat, it lacked any sort of protection or precaution. Even when it's outright stated that isn't the case.

[Dean_the_Young]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

I would have trusted Anderson with it. He isn't a politician, he's a military man used to getting things done but within the confines of reason.

That's so charming.

I wouldn't have cared who he hired to look at it, as long as he oversaw everything.

And... a lack of understanding of what oversight can do.

Anderson isn't a tech expert. He can only be as effective as the people who tell him what's likely to happen tell him.

Failing that I would have given it to the Geth or the Quarians. The former has nothing to gain from being reckless and in fact could most likely predict more possible outcomes and create precautions against them than anyone else and the latter just because of their expertise. I would make a point though to make peace between them and the geth and gotten their homeworld back before I gave it to them. In the end they might try to use it somehow against the geth otherwise.

Of course the gethhave advantages from being reckless and risky. They also care far, far less about most Cerberus-style disasters than anyone else. They are ideal cost-benefit analysis.

The Quarians might use it against the Geth regardless.

[Phaedon]

Moiaussi wrote...

Oh come on... why would an IFF, which would basicly broadcast a 'we're friendly' signature, need to be tied in with any of the Normandy's systems anyway? It should have been studied isolated from Normandy's systems and triggered separately from said systems.

That is a very basic precaution.

Hackers with millions of years of experience can trick you. I guess. Even though. I don't think that EDI did it on purpose, it's just another sign that Cerberus can't handle the Cerberus Base.

[Dean_the_Young]

Is it?



Or was it a sign that, at full capability, Cerberus was able to deal with a Reaper surprise, and the benefits were indisputably vital to victory?

[TcheQ]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
You're... not familiar with the Mass Effect lore, are you?

Please show me where Reaper-originated genetic experiments have caused some good.

Krogan? no
Rachni? no
Saren? no
Protheans? no
Humans? no
Keepers? no (insert Admiral Akbar quote)

All are evil genetic mutations that left their hosts soulless.

Unless there are other genetic mutations the Reapers have created that weren't solely for their own benefit that I don't know about, that somehow undoes all the above evil, my decision is fully justified.

Modifié par TcheQ, 21 octobre 2010 - 07:50 .

[TcheQ]

Inverness Moon wrote...

You're making a big assumption about what Cerberus would do with the technology. Considering that the base can build reapers, outfitting Alliance ships with reaper offenses and defenses would be one of the better options.

I saw what happened to the crew aboard the derelict Reaper.  I won't waste human or any other sentient species lives on the chance it would happen again.  I already have an army at my beck and call, I don't need Cerberus (thanks for the ship chumps).  I have Rachni alliance, and I will forge Krogan, Quarian, Geth, Turian, Asari and even damned Hanar if it comes to that.  No more experiments.  Screw Cerberus.  I saw what they did to Admiral Kahoku. My loyalty is to the Alliance. 

[Ryzaki]

I always blow the base up. Too dangerous to keep it. I know the whole "use your enemies weapons to defeat them" but usually said enemy can't mind dominate people using said technology. So I'll err on the side of caution.

I'll take the bits that will be left from the blast and try to construct something reasonable from that. But all those husks and scions I fought in the derelict reaper put me off of the idea of leaving the collector base in Cerberus's (particularly TIM's) hands. No thanks.

I *might* keep it if it would be for Shep's sole use. As that is not the case I'm blowing it up. I'm not giving it to the idiot "Ah yes 'Reapers'." council and I'm not giving it to "ensure human dominance across the galaxy" TIM. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 octobre 2010 - 08:15 .

[Spectreshadow]

Just finished my first vanguard run which I feel is my main and kept the base. I believe the only thing that matters is stopping the reapers no matter what the cost because the alternative is total galactic genocide.

[Inverness Moon]

TcheQ wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

You're making a big assumption about what Cerberus would do with the technology. Considering that the base can build reapers, outfitting Alliance ships with reaper offenses and defenses would be one of the better options.

I saw what happened to the crew aboard the derelict Reaper.  I won't waste human or any other sentient species lives on the chance it would happen again.  I already have an army at my beck and call, I don't need Cerberus (thanks for the ship chumps).  I have Rachni alliance, and I will forge Krogan, Quarian, Geth, Turian, Asari and even damned Hanar if it comes to that.  No more experiments.  Screw Cerberus.  I saw what they did to Admiral Kahoku. My loyalty is to the Alliance. 

And that is why your Shepard is unfit for being a spectre. Risk is a part of life, and you're unable to make hard decisions when it comes to your own survival and the survival of the galaxy.

You can go ahead and forge the biggest alliance ever, but if you think that is going to assure you victory then you're deluding yourself.

[Phaedon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Is it?

Or was it a sign that, at full capability, Cerberus was able to deal with a Reaper surprise, and the benefits were indisputably vital to victory?

Last time I checked, a collector element hijacked the Normandy and managed to take out every single crew member and abduct them. I don't see how that's good.

[TcheQ]

Inverness Moon wrote...

You can go ahead and forge the biggest alliance ever, but if you think that is going to assure you victory then you're deluding yourself.

I have never supported tyranny, injustice, cruelty, torture or slavery in order to achieve my goals or to advance the human race, and I never will.  I sacrificed eight human cruisers in order to save the citadel.  You are not the council.  You are not worthy to question my judgement.

Modifié par TcheQ, 21 octobre 2010 - 04:36 .

[Ryzaki]

Phaedon wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Is it?

Or was it a sign that, at full capability, Cerberus was able to deal with a Reaper surprise, and the benefits were indisputably vital to victory?

Last time I checked, a collector element hijacked the Normandy and managed to take out every single crew member and abduct them. I don't see how that's good.

Now let's get credit where credit is due. 

Joker was still there. 

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why is the cockpit at the front of the ship? Why does Normandy not have a front window? Why do we hear sounds from a space battle?

The cockpit may have beenin front, but EDI was not and could fly the ship independantly. The reality is in space, collisions are silly unlikely with anything other than maybe a planet (curse you, gravity, you win again!), in which case the cockpit isn't as relevant.

No front window is a structural integrety issue.

Space battles do make sounds, just those sounds are not transmitted between ships. The explosions would certainly be heard inside the exploding ships. We don't normally see them out of a ship's window anyway, but from a third person view in space. Its not like we, personally, are drifing there in space either.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

TcheQ wrote...

I saw what happened to the crew aboard the derelict Reaper.  I won't waste human or any other sentient species lives on the chance it would happen again.  I already have an army at my beck and call, I don't need Cerberus (thanks for the ship chumps).  I have Rachni alliance, and I will forge Krogan, Quarian, Geth, Turian, Asari and even damned Hanar if it comes to that.  No more experiments.  Screw Cerberus.  I saw what they did to Admiral Kahoku. My loyalty is to the Alliance. 

It will happen again... Indoctrination is one of the Reaper's primary weapons that evidently is a key to their success of wiping out all galactic life... regardless of whether they band together or not.

[CroGamer002]

Nightwriter wrote...

I hope this thread doesn't go the way of the last one. Eventually paragons just stop looking in here.

I feel I have little to contribute. Everything that went into my decision to destroy the base can be explained by the statement that I tailor my decisions to achieve the best game experience, not the best realistic solution.

Same here.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Yeah it should be reminded that even in the face of not having a solution or lead toward defeating the Reaper threat and choosing the Paragon option, Bioware rewards faith.

Things will turn out just fine for Paragons... has so far. The main point of discussion here would be to justify the Renegade choice (which is naturally the more shunned choice of the two by Bioware... presentation-wise).

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 21 octobre 2010 - 07:15 .

[Ryzaki]

Mesina2 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I hope this thread doesn't go the way of the last one. Eventually paragons just stop looking in here.

I feel I have little to contribute. Everything that went into my decision to destroy the base can be explained by the statement that I tailor my decisions to achieve the best game experience, not the best realistic solution.

Same here.

I'm starting to feel this way too. 

Apparently my decision must be rooted in fear. 

<_<

[Dean_the_Young]

TcheQ wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
You're... not familiar with the Mass Effect lore, are you?

Please show me where Reaper-originated genetic experiments have caused some good.

Krogan? no
Rachni? no
Saren? no
Protheans? no
Humans? no
Keepers? no (insert Admiral Akbar quote)

All are evil genetic mutations that left their hosts soulless.

Unless there are other genetic mutations the Reapers have created that weren't solely for their own benefit that I don't know about, that somehow undoes all the above evil, my decision is fully justified.

I was talking about genetic alteration in general, since you were also using such broad terms.

The skills and knowledge that the Reapers used to genetic modify to their ends can just as well be reused to ours. Genetic tinkering is established and effectively universal for most humans, let alone aliens: all Alliance soldiers have a basic gene therapy that we hear about inME1 and2 from place to place.

Genetic tampering certainly can lead to benefits.

[Dean_the_Young]

Phaedon wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Is it?

Or was it a sign that, at full capability, Cerberus was able to deal with a Reaper surprise, and the benefits were indisputably vital to victory?

Last time I checked, a collector element hijacked the Normandy and managed to take out every single crew member and abduct them. I don't see how that's good.

So, in your game the Collectors captured the Normandy because there was no Cerberus personel there to respond with the necessary steps to save the ship? How did you get through the Omega relay without that IFF after losing the Normandy.

I really need to get these alternate versions of Mass Effect. In mine, a Cerberus employee, working with a Cerberus AI, responded to the attack and was able to eject the borders and save the ship, which using the IFF was then able to cross the Omega 4 relay and not die thanks to the Reaper IFF. Shepard, using a Reaper-tech Thannix, was able to kill the Collector vessel,and then killed the Collectors (with their own technology, to boot!).