504 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Alright they're not terrorists.

/shrugs

They're still a group that shouldn't be trusted with a wooden spoon. Much less the CB. 

And actually I saw Miranda's change as gradual (probably because I dragged her everywhere) she made aplogizes for the Biotic camp, was horrified but still making apologizes when TIM lead us into a trap, witnessed the horrors of the DR and finally at the RB was like "Screw this!" I guess that was the straw that broke the camel's back. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 octobre 2010 - 07:43 .

[Ryzaki]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...



Also at the whole Cerberus isn't terroists discussion. Uh...yes they are. Heck Jacob tells you as much the first time you speak to him on the Normandy.

They aren't terrorists. Just look at the word. Cerberus doesn't conduct acts for the purpose of causing terror in a populace.



They are more comparable to the SS of **** Germany than to terrorists. Experiments conducted to further a goal that are vicious and brutal.

I see. You're right. Thanks for that.

[Kasen]

Edited:

Nevermind, I don't want to get into this argument any farther.

Modifié par Kasen13, 24 octobre 2010 - 07:47 .

[lovgreno]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Well, we don't explore the entire base either do we? You may look in every nook and cranny of the locations you cross, but there's many more that you don't actually go to because the game (god I hate playing that card, it could mean anything) doesn't let us.

Either way, you'll never find out for sure whereas I will .

This is true. However I will have to make it even more over complicated and theoretical by saying that by blowing it up I will never find the potentialy fubar causing things those sneaky reapers may have hidden in some nook and cranny (god I hate playing that card, it could mean anything).

So Retribution only happens for Renegades now?



Let's assume the 'it's a trap' argument is true. The tech is inherently bad/evil/wrong. If you use it, the Reapers will disable it/use it against you/it's not very effective.

Cerberus is going to take, use, and disseminate what it can regardless.

If you blow up the base, the tech is still valuable. There's just a lot less of it, and not as valuable as was. The difference between very rich and rich.

Cerberus (and anyone else who can) is still going to comb the remains for fragments of technology. (Which are bad.) They are still going to study it, replicate it as best they can, and dissiminate it as best they can. (Which is bad.) Reaper technology is still going to be fed to groups Cerberus wants it to be fed to. (Which is bad.)

The only difference is that the tech can't be studied as well. Making full understanding, and finding those nasty Reaper traps, less likely. (Which really is bad.)

You haven't mitigated the 'costs' of the base, IE of Cerberus studying Collector/Reaper technology, having experiments, and spreading what they can to those they want to, leading to our usurption/trap/destruction for using the tech. Cerberus already has Collector weaponstech, for example, superior to most modern tech, and will spread that as it can regardless. And, because of how it's advantageous, people will adopt advanced Collector tech, and be stuck with it when the Reapers come. (Which is the bad thing we were supposed to avoid.) 'Low' reaper tech, Collector tech, will spread regardless.

You've only mitigated the benefits of the base. IE, intact 'high'Reaper tech as well.

Perhaps, it's hard to know with that big and alien base that may just as well contain nothing usefull and/or nothing dangerous. I think a exploded base is still less likely to brainwash anyone though. In any case the exploded base will not harvest any more humans while a intact one still can (Remember that destroying the base was the mission before TIMmy came up with that wild wishfull thinking that the radiation pulse would guarantee Cerberus controll over the base). But no one can guarantee keeping reaper tech under controll, especialy not the small and isolated Cerberus.

In short: The gains are possible but not by far certain. The collector and reaper threat is very real.

[Asheer_Khan]

More i look at posts from pro base keepers then more i see golum with Sauron's ring speaking over and over... "My precioussssssss..."... and seriously this is little disturbing...

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 24 octobre 2010 - 02:25 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Khan, can't you read the thread title? No one is going to take a comparisonto Golum as anything but an insult.

[Zulu_DFA]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Khan, can't you read the thread title? No one is going to take a comparisonto Golum as anything but an insult.

How so? Golum is a hero, a bloody icon! When Frodo was about to betray and enslave everybody, Golum sacrificed his own life to destroy the ring!

[Dean_the_Young]

Heh, alright. That was a bit funny.

[Phaedon]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

More i look at posts from pro base keepers then more i see golum with Sauron's ring speaking over and over... "My precioussssssss..."... and seriously this is little disturbing...

Martin Sheen saying 'my preciousssssssss' would be awesome. You know it. I am keeping the base this time.

[Inverness Moon]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

More i look at posts from pro base keepers then more i see golum with Sauron's ring speaking over and over... "My precioussssssss..."... and seriously this is little disturbing...

I don't know what to say to that.

[Arijharn]

Jabarai wrote...


TIM's words: "I'm looking at the schematics EDI uploaded. A timed radiation pulse would kill the remaining collectors, but leave the machinery and technology intact."

First of all, it implies EDI's already got information on the base. I had no way of knowing if that's more or less all there is to be learnt. Who can say otherwise?

Sorry for my tardiness but that horrible thing called rl intruded.

However, I'd like to point out that to be pedantic, the term 'machinery' is in fact actually rather vague no? You might know that a particular machine is a coffee maker, but you might not know exactly how it makes coffee (or even if it's good coffee either). Hell, you might look at it and perceive it as a 'machine' and that it therefore has 'machinery,' but other than your immediate grasp of the obvious, you have absolutely nfi what the hell the thing actually is or does.

EDI is limited to technical schematics (if that) of the base, but I doubt she'd have access to items that don't actually appear to the internal Collector's network. I mean, when you're crawling through the Seeker Swarm access shut, she doesn't just pop up out of the blue and say: "Oh, by the way, that big thing in the central chamber is a Reaper. Terribly sorry, I must have missed it in my first 1000 scans through the internal network." She says 'precisely' only after you saw it (for awesome dramatic element!), so it seems to me that she isn't 'all knowing' at all.

[AtrophyOffline]

As a paragon Shepard I chose to save it (on my first and only playthrough). I figured since the Shepard's ultimate goal is to save galactic civilization from the Reapers - it would be foolish to discard such an advantage when the odds are stacked so badly in our favor.

The Red/Blue star ending (if you save the base or not) was the first thing that made me really reconsider my decision - since I'm playing as paragon, to me it says one way is more or less the dawn of a new age (free from the domination of the Reapers and their Technology) whereas the other is a continuation of the old ways - even if you stop the threat - their legacy might still remain in some shape or form.

After mulling this over for a bit I reverted back to my previous decision, figuring the bottom-line (ie stopping the reapers) is more important than any ethical concerns I might have of any potential technological misuse.

After thinking about it some more - I figure Cerberus and the Illusive Man deserve some credit for saving Shepard and pursuing the Collectors at a time when everyone else in the galaxy turned a deaf ear to the problem. Given that I think they deserve to get the benefit of the doubt - even if their morals are a bit shady. Yes, some innocent people will inevitably die because of this decision - but I find the potential gains of the Reaper base too interesting to ignore. Looking forward to seeing what happens with this.

[Edit: Removed junk code. - Pacifien]

Modifié par Pacifien, 27 octobre 2010 - 07:57 .

[chris025657]

AtrophyOffline wrote...

As a paragon Shepard I chose to save it (on my first and only playthrough). I figured since the Shepard's ultimate goal is to save galactic civilization from the Reapers - it would be foolish to discard such an advantage when the odds are stacked so badly in our favor.

The Red/Blue star ending (if you save the base or not) was the first thing that made me really reconsider my decision - since I'm playing as paragon, to me it says one way is more or less the dawn of a new age (free from the domination of the Reapers and their Technology) whereas the other is a continuation of the old ways - even if you stop the threat - their legacy might still remain in some shape or form.

After mulling this over for a bit I reverted back to my previous decision, figuring the bottom-line (ie stopping the reapers) is more important than any ethical concerns I might have of any potential technological misuse.

After thinking about it some more - I figure Cerberus and the Illusive Man deserve some credit for saving Shepard and pursuing the Collectors at a time when everyone else in the galaxy turned a deaf ear to the problem. Given that I think they deserve to get the benefit of the doubt - even if their morals are a bit shady. Yes, some innocent people will inevitably die because of this decision - but I find the potential gains of the Reaper base too interesting to ignore.

With the exception of the red/blue star interpretation, I agree with much of this. 

I really disagree with those that say Cerberus has always failed on missions or that Cerberus couldn't possibly have noble objectives. I mean, Cerberus successes were featured prominently in ME 2. Investing heavily into the medical miracle of bringing Shepard back to fight the Collectors/Reapers, not only rebuilding, but improving the most advanced ship in the galaxy, and funding and supporting Shepard against the Collectors are just a few. 

Then there's the little things like Cerberus secretly channeling support to the colonists on Horizon or their interest in maintaining galactic stability in the face the Reaper threat that show noble objectives behind Cerberus. 

Without a doubt, Cerberus commits crimes and does have failures. However, I feel when there is the threat of total genocide at the hands of the Reapers handing the base over to Cerberus might be for the best. 

As for the whole dominion of the Reapers and their Technology point, I would be really annoyed if that was the moral message behind ME 3. The purpose of Reaper technology is to be used as a tool for total genocide of every sentient species. None of the reasons why we would study their technology would be for this purpose. The relay network and Citadel have uses other than genocide. I also feel this message would be self-contradictory as well. It's already been shown that an understanding of Reaper tech by the Protheans had disrupted the extinction cycle and given all sentient life a chance against the Reapers.

Looking forward to seeing what happens with this.

Me too. 

[pf17456]

So just out of curiosity. You save the base and TIM sends a recovery team through the relay to study it. You destroy the base and TIM sends a recovery team through to pick up the pieces..

Either way a team is going back through the O4 relay. So what happened to Harbinger ? Destroyed by the blast or radiation pulse ? Was Harbinger projecting control over the Collectors from dark space ? Did Harbinger just pack it in and go home or is Harbinger still hanging out in the neighborhood waiting for someone to return and what happens when they do ?

[Jabarai]

Arijharn wrote...

Jabarai wrote...
TIM's words: "I'm looking at the schematics EDI uploaded. A timed radiation pulse would kill the remaining collectors, but leave the machinery and technology intact."

First of all, it implies EDI's already got information on the base. I had no way of knowing if that's more or less all there is to be learnt. Who can say otherwise?

EDI is limited to technical schematics (if that) of the base, but I doubt she'd have access to items that don't actually appear to the internal Collector's network. I mean, when you're crawling through the Seeker Swarm access shut, she doesn't just pop up out of the blue and say: "Oh, by the way, that big thing in the central chamber is a Reaper. Terribly sorry, I must have missed it in my first 1000 scans through the internal network." She says 'precisely' only after you saw it (for awesome dramatic element!), so it seems to me that she isn't 'all knowing' at all.

Good points. Especially EDI not seeing the Reaper. It seems she's heavily reliant on Shepard's gathered visual data.

It's certainly worthy of note, that - and this was proposed by another some time ago - TIM also seems confident that there are no "blueprints" to be found in any sort of "data caches" at the base. I don't believe there should be any need for such, given the Reapers' otherworldly capabilities. To me it says that all the intact technology would have to be reverse engineered - excluding the Reaper itself, of course, which was destroyed (if memory serves). How much could be extracted from such technology is something my Shepard will be mulling over. Convincing himself he made the right choice will be difficult, but a man's gotta do and so on.

[Dean_the_Young]

When does TIM ever say he doesn't think there are blueprints or data caches in the base?



Computers are data caches. EDI hacks the Collectors and gives the info to TIM. TIM can only ask you to save the base because it has data caches.



It's just that those data caches that EDI can get are not the sum total or greatest value ofthe base.



In the ME lore, reverse engineering is fast: the prothean data cache on Mars put humanity from conventional barely-space capable to interstellar colonization in under three years. Given the time frame given for a number of the other choices in ME2, the base isn't an impossibly huge task.

[Arijharn]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

When does TIM ever say he doesn't think there are blueprints or data caches in the base?

Computers are data caches. EDI hacks the Collectors and gives the info to TIM. TIM can only ask you to save the base because it has data caches.

It's just that those data caches that EDI can get are not the sum total or greatest value ofthe base.

In the ME lore, reverse engineering is fast: the prothean data cache on Mars put humanity from conventional barely-space capable to interstellar colonization in under three years. Given the time frame given for a number of the other choices in ME2, the base isn't an impossibly huge task.

Even if the opposite is true, it's better to find out for sure by saving the base rather than mutter 'what if.' The only way you'll be able to exhaustively discover whether there is anything of actual use is to comb through the base completely rather than shifting through rubble, because shifting through rubble will only ever offer a partial solution. With the station's mass effect fields gone and the propulsion of debris caused by that massive explosion, I have to wonder in how much potential useful information is lost or destroyed, or even thrown into the event horizon.

[Manic Sheep]

pf17456 wrote...

So just out of curiosity. You save the base and TIM sends a recovery team through the relay to study it. You destroy the base and TIM sends a recovery team through to pick up the pieces..
Either way a team is going back through the O4 relay. So what happened to Harbinger ? Destroyed by the blast or radiation pulse ? Was Harbinger projecting control over the Collectors from dark space ? Did Harbinger just pack it in and go home or is Harbinger still hanging out in the neighborhood waiting for someone to return and what happens when they do ?

I don't think Harbinger was ever actually there. He was controlling the collector general from dark space. When the base was about to blow (or radiation blast was about to hit) Harbinger released control over the general and left him to his fate. But I could be wrong. I’m not known for being practically attentive.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 28 octobre 2010 - 02:02 .

[chris025657]

Manic Sheep wrote...

pf17456 wrote...

So just out of curiosity. You save the base and TIM sends a recovery team through the relay to study it. You destroy the base and TIM sends a recovery team through to pick up the pieces..
Either way a team is going back through the O4 relay. So what happened to Harbinger ? Destroyed by the blast or radiation pulse ? Was Harbinger projecting control over the Collectors from dark space ? Did Harbinger just pack it in and go home or is Harbinger still hanging out in the neighborhood waiting for someone to return and what happens when they do ?

I don't think Harbinger was ever actually there. He was controlling the collector general from dark space. When the base was about to blow (or radiation blast was about to hit) Harbinger released control over the general and left him to his fate. But I could be wrong. I’m not known for being practically attentive.

Harbinger was the Reaper that was somehow in control of the Collector General and possesses the drones. It wasn't harmed in the blast because it's out in dark space with the rest of the Reapers. Thus the whole "Harbinger is coming" thing. 

[Gokuthegrate]

My biggest problem with keeping the base was giving it to Cerberus.

If Shep could learn from the base and keep TIM away Id keep it but since its destruction or TIM i choice destruction.

EDI seems to of gathered some useful info from it anyway.

[pf17456]

[quote]chris025657 wrote...

I don't think Harbinger was ever actually there. He was controlling the collector general from dark space. When the base was about to blow (or radiation blast was about to hit) Harbinger released control over the general and left him to his fate. But I could be wrong. I’m not known for being practically attentive.
[/quote]

Harbinger was the Reaper that was somehow in control of the Collector General and possesses the drones. It wasn't harmed in the blast because it's out in dark space with the rest of the Reapers. Thus the whole "Harbinger is coming" thing. 
[/quote]

If that's the case then any of the billion Reapers are capable of extending their influence from Dark Space. I'm not so sure about that. Soverign seemed to require a fairly close proximity in order to take control and indoctrinate. I'm guessing Harbinger did as well and that Harbinger is still hanging out nearby. I could be wrong but I think the Cerebrus crew that goes through the O4 relay will meet Harbinger on the other side

[Inquisitor Recon]

TIM is many things, but he isn't crazy. I rather doubt you will find him building his own reaper in ME3. But if so I want a showdown like this:



TIM: Did they say why, Shepard, why they want to terminate my command?

Shepard: I was sent on a classified mission, sir.

TIM: It's no longer classified, is it? Did they tell you?

Shepard: They told me that you had gone totally insane, and that your methods were unsound.

TIM: Are my methods unsound?

Shepard: I don't see any method at all, sir.

TIM: I expected someone like you. What did you expect? Are you an assassin?

Shepard: I'm a soldier.

TIM: You're neither. You're an errand boy, sent by grocery clerks, to collect a bill.

[GuardianAngel470]

Arijharn wrote...

Jabarai wrote...


TIM's words: "I'm looking at the schematics EDI uploaded. A timed radiation pulse would kill the remaining collectors, but leave the machinery and technology intact."

First of all, it implies EDI's already got information on the base. I had no way of knowing if that's more or less all there is to be learnt. Who can say otherwise?

Sorry for my tardiness but that horrible thing called rl intruded.

However, I'd like to point out that to be pedantic, the term 'machinery' is in fact actually rather vague no? You might know that a particular machine is a coffee maker, but you might not know exactly how it makes coffee (or even if it's good coffee either). Hell, you might look at it and perceive it as a 'machine' and that it therefore has 'machinery,' but other than your immediate grasp of the obvious, you have absolutely nfi what the hell the thing actually is or does.

EDI is limited to technical schematics (if that) of the base, but I doubt she'd have access to items that don't actually appear to the internal Collector's network. I mean, when you're crawling through the Seeker Swarm access shut, she doesn't just pop up out of the blue and say: "Oh, by the way, that big thing in the central chamber is a Reaper. Terribly sorry, I must have missed it in my first 1000 scans through the internal network." She says 'precisely' only after you saw it (for awesome dramatic element!), so it seems to me that she isn't 'all knowing' at all.

Actually, it is quite a relevant point. I personally hadn't seen this before, but doesn't Shepard go all around the galaxy scanning technology and then reproducing it on the normandy? If EDI had similar scanners to Shepard's omnitool, which there's no reason she shouldn't, she could basically reproduce the entire base, piece for piece.

All technological advantages without giving it to TIM. But then that would nullify the choice, so Bioware may or may not have taken that into consideration. 

Then again, if Inquisition is to be believed along with Retribution, they aren't exactly above that.

[Dean_the_Young]

Except for (A) Shepard isn't scanning everywhere in the base, and EDI's never shown an ability to do something like that, ( the Collectors use a lot of technology such as their Collector Particle beam which are unreplicatable at this time, and most importantly



© Everything scanned up to the point of the decision would have been forwarded to TIM.

[CmdrStJean]

I had no idea this would be such a contentious topic. I only got ME2 recently (and by extension only finished it recently and I found the decision at the end to be relatively easy. Destroying the base fit with my typical paragon behavior and at least to me made sense on a number of logical levels. Reading through this thread certainly reveals that one can just as easily make an argument for the reverse strategy. Though I am surprised that -keeping- the base seems to be the preferred, if not possibly the default decision. I find that intriguing.



My own reasoning was based on a number of factors, not the least of which is I tended to look beyond the Reaper threat and ask what happens afterwords if Cerberus retains the base, the technology and the know-how to implement reaper level technology on a galactic scale. One part of me was concerned that even the Reapers are defeated, it may simply mean exchanging one existential threat for another. By far I'm thinking more of the power of harnessing indoctrination tech against humans and other races, and the more subtle forms of control Cerberus could exert rather than an all out assault or a "Cerberus Reaper" though I suppose nothing could be ruled out either. If the war against the Reapers is massively devastating, a Pyrrhic victory if you will, effective opposition to Cerberus might be far less than what might be assumed here.



There's also the possibility that Cerberus itself could become compromised by the technology they'd find aboard the Collector base. If Cerberus somehow were to become indoctrinated, even if the Illusive Man himself avoids that fate, you could end up with a "doomsday scenario" in which Cerberus works actively with the Reapers to destroy all civilization. In that case, keeping the base would mean adding yet another enemy to the mix that must be defeated. An unacceptable outcome in my mind.



I also think we just can't know if the base is the key to defeating the Reapers, or not. Destroying it could have adverse consequences, but keeping it carries the same risk. It would be, bold, to say the least for Bioware to make ME3 "unwinnable" without the Collector Base intact. I think that's unlikely but you never know. And, let us not forget that the Illusive Man can not and should not be trusted anyway. He's something of a nefarious anti-villain and while I have no doubt he'd protect Earth and Humanity, I could also see him being just fine with any methods employed, including genocide, to achieve that end. Like others have pointed out here, I too see that Cerberus is not a simple black hat operation out to murder everything in sight. Nor are they paragons of virtue standing for the rule of law. It's a complicated matter, and though I chose to destroy the base, it wasn't without full consideration of the possibility that Cerberus might actually gain something useful from it to help defeat the Reapers.



At any rate, sorry to ramble. My point is I felt the base is too dangerous to keep intact as is, scavengers might indeed find information that could be turned to account, good or bad, but at least it will be harder if the whole thing is reduced to a pile of rubble. Oh! And one other important point. I blew up the base because that was what the mission entailed. I carried out the Illusive Man's orders to the letter; I assembled a team, gathered my strength and destroyed the Collectors. I fulfilled my end of the bargain, and I felt no obligation to turn over such a potentially dangerous asset to a man who's true nature is a complete unknown. Anyway, that's how I feel about it. I think both sides have made many good points here, all very valid. So, good job Bioware for dealing in shades of gray.