504 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

I don't even know why people believe that giving the base to Cerberus results in a human led galaxy. Cerberus is far too small to do any significant damage to the aliens, I kept the Council in place and kept the base. What happens then?

[Moiaussi]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I don't even know why people believe that giving the base to Cerberus results in a human led galaxy. Cerberus is far too small to do any significant damage to the aliens, I kept the Council in place and kept the base. What happens then?

Depends on how deeply they have the Alliance infiltrated and what they learned or could learn about thorian mind control and/or reaper indoctrination.

[chris025657]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I don't even know why people believe that giving the base to Cerberus results in a human led galaxy. Cerberus is far too small to do any significant damage to the aliens, I kept the Council in place and kept the base. What happens then?

Even if there were human dominance, I don't see that as necessarily evil. Dominance and advancement for humanity does not mean oppression or enslavement of other species. 

[Moiaussi]

chris025657 wrote...

Even if there were human dominance, I don't see that as necessarily evil. Dominance and advancement for humanity does not mean oppression or enslavement of other species. 

Depends on the methods used to accomplish and maintain it, and Cerberus seems more interested in taking it than earning it.

[chris025657]

Moiaussi wrote...

Depends on the methods used to accomplish and maintain it, and Cerberus seems more interested in taking it than earning it.

Of course how that dominance is achieved affects the ethics of the situation. However, any potential dominance or technological advancement achieved from studying the Collector base would be legitimate in my opinion. These advancements would not come from say, a military conquest of other species or some kind of technological espionage. In my canon playthrough, like others, I sacrificed human lives to save the Council earning humanity significant respect among other species. Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of human lives killed by the Collectors and the major Cerberus investment into the capture and study of the base adding to the legitimacy of potential technological advancements. 

[Googlesaurus]

chris025657 wrote...

Googlesaurus wrote...

And yet The Illusive Man himself seems to have the same attitude. 

Not really. TIM doesn't put hate above the Reaper threat. Zaeed's killed dozens of Cerberus operatives and Shepard could have shut down several Cerberus operations. However, he recognizes their value against the Reapers and makes the rational decision. 

I'm quite aware that TIM is more than willing to recruit people who have compromised Cerberus operations in the past. However, he doesn't even bother to hide his intentions of using Collector technology to put humans on the top of the galactic food chain. At least Miranda bothers to use the phrases like "the advancement of humanity" ; she might actually believe that Cerberus exists for those catchwords. You'd think that TIM would be upset withthe Paragon decision because he believes that the Commander has doomed humanity. Big surprise, it's not. He's pissed because a valuable chess piece isn't in play anymore. 

TIM suffers the problem Ieldra is attributing to other people: he's letting his personal beliefs get in the way of necessity. He thinks that Cerberus can defeat the Reapers and hold on to all the goodies that such a victory would bring. Cerberus neither has the manpower nor the resources nor the technology to win this war. If the survival of humanity was TIM's top priority, then he would realize that only a joint-species venture could succeed and Cerberus would be focused on achieving that through any means necessary. 

Anyway, I was dissatisfied with both the choices. Destroying the Collector Base is destroying valuable technology that may prove key in understanding and stopping the Reaper; saving the Collector Base is delivering it into the hands of an organization that has disquieting goals beyond the preservation of galactic life. If it was up to me, I would play the whole situation differently. 

Modifié par Googlesaurus, 30 octobre 2010 - 02:59 .

[chris025657]

Googlesaurus wrote...


I'm quite aware that TIM is more than willing to recruit people who have compromised Cerberus operations in the past. However, he doesn't even bother to hide his intentions of using Collector technology to put humans on the top of the galactic food chain. 

First and foremost, TIM emphasizes using the technology from the Collector base against the Reapers. He just recognizes it's value beyond the immediate threat. This is not allowing hate to compromise necessity.

You'd think that TIM would be upset withthe Paragon decision because he believes that the Commander has doomed humanity. Big surprise, it's not. He's pissed because a valuable chess piece isn't in play anymore. 

One of the reasons TIM is upset with the decision to blow up the base is because "You're taking a **** of a risk Shepard". Even then, he does not let hate compromise reason. There was no threats to hunt down Shepard. I think even after blowing up the base TIM would still recognize the value of Shepard against the Reapers.

TIM suffers the problem Ieldra is attributing to other people: he's letting his personal beliefs get in the way of necessity. He thinks that Cerberus can defeat the Reapers and hold on to all the goodies that such a victory would bring. Cerberus neither has the manpower nor the resources nor the technology to win this war. If the survival of humanity was TIM's top priority, then he would realize that only a joint-species venture could succeed and Cerberus would be focused on achieving that through any means necessary. 

I don't think Cerberus intends to fight the Reapers alone. Many of the mission complete summaries indicate that Cerberus is interested in maintaining galactic stability and potential alliances against the Reaper threat. We also know that Cerberus isn't afraid to work through intermediaries such as when they influenced the Alliance to build the original Normandy. 

[chris025657]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Sort-of ontopic and I don't believe I've seen it anywhere, I've also been unable to find it anywhere on the internet. Blue names are those who support blowing it up and Red being those who wanted to keep it. Just wrote it off my recent Paragon save.

-snip-

There was a thread about that here 

Legion has a pretty good response to Shepard's saying the base should be destroyed because it is an "abomination"

It's annoying how half the squad advocates keeping the base, some with good reasons, then all completely change their positions five minutes later. 

[Googlesaurus]

chris025657 wrote...

First and foremost, TIM emphasizes using the technology from the Collector base against the Reapers. He just recognizes it's value beyond the immediate threat. This is not allowing hate to compromise necessity.

That is not what he emphasizes when he gets angry at Shepard.

Its value beyond the immediate threat is absolutely pointless if said threat is not neutralized. 

chris025657 wrote...

One of the reasons TIM is upset with the decision to blow up the base is because "You're taking a **** of a risk Shepard". Even then, he does not let hate compromise reason. There was no threats to hunt down Shepard. I think even after blowing up the base TIM would still recognize the value of Shepard against the Reapers.

I'm not talking about hate. I'm talking about personal beliefs interfering with necessary action. 

Why would Cerberus hunt down Shepard? TIM knows exactly where he is. All those recording devices on the Normandy aren't going to waste. 

chris025657 wrote...
I don't think Cerberus intends to fight the Reapers alone. Many of the mission complete summaries indicate that Cerberus is interested in maintaining galactic stability and potential alliances against the Reaper threat. We also know that Cerberus isn't afraid to work through intermediaries such as when they influenced the Alliance to build the original Normandy.

Then who will fight alongside them? No alien government would stomach an organization with their reputation, regardless of whether it is earned or not. Cerberus couldn't fight the Reapers in the conventional sense anyway. 

  

[Dave of Canada]

chris025657 wrote...

There was a thread about that here

That would've saved me some time, yes.

[Isaidlunch]

Interesting how every squadmate bar Jack who supported destroying the base said something completely ridiculous at the base. How does using the information at the base to defeat the Reapers mean Cerberus are going to start harvesting humans and making their own Reapers? That and the silly "Human dominance? Or just Cerberus?" line from Shepard make me think Cerberus/TIM are going to be turned stupid evil in ME3.

Modifié par Kazanth, 30 octobre 2010 - 03:59 .

[Dave of Canada]

Kazanth wrote...

Interesting how every squadmate bar Jack who supported destroying the base said something completely ridiculous at the base. How does using the information at the base to defeat the Reapers mean Cerberus are going to start harvesting humans and making their own Reapers?

I agree but that also happens to be a viewpoint shared by a lot of the players (for some reason). I find the "keep the base" dialogue to be a lot more convincing than the destroying ones because they explain the reasoning.

Really don't understand why they needed to have very different dialogue on the Normandy itself, though. It's almost like they don't want to support Renegades at all.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 30 octobre 2010 - 04:10 .

[TcheQ]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I don't even know why people believe that giving the base to Cerberus results in a human led galaxy.

It is TIM who mentions "we can use this base to secure human dominance in the galaxy, against the reapers and beyond". (then Shepard corrects him).  That would be where the notion comes from.

[JohnnyBeGood2]

TcheQ wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...
I don't even know why people believe that giving the base to Cerberus results in a human led galaxy.

It is TIM who mentions "we can use this base to secure human dominance in the galaxy, against the reapers and beyond". (then Shepard corrects him).  That would be where the notion comes from.

Yep, TIMs intention is completely clear

[SmokeyPSD]

It's still against the Reaper's however.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

It is still against the Reapers and that is where his focus and intention is. I also prefer working with people who make their intentions clear (or atleast whose intention is made clear). A lot less surprises that way with a vantage point to see things coming.

[TcheQ]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

It is still against the Reapers and that is where his focus and intention is. I also prefer working with people who make their intentions clear (or atleast whose intention is made clear). A lot less surprises that way with a vantage point to see things coming.

You think TIM's intentions are clear?

[Zulu_DFA]

TcheQ wrote...

You think TIM's intentions are clear?

What is exactly unclear about them?

Is he going to accumulate more power for himself, Cerberus and the Mankind? Yes.

Is he going to kill every sentient being in the Galaxy? No.

[Kasces]

TcheQ wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I don't even know why people believe that giving the base to Cerberus results in a human led galaxy.

It is TIM who mentions "we can use this base to secure human dominance in the galaxy, against the reapers and beyond". (then Shepard corrects him).  That would be where the notion comes from.

And the problem is...? TIM isn't against other races, he just doesn't care if the other races can't keep up.  He's the leader of a human centric organization, Turian military or STG would do the same thing, just noy say it.  I'm not really pro-Cerberus, but he's just being honest, assuming the galaxy even survives the Reapers.

[TcheQ]

Kasces wrote...

TcheQ wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I don't even know why people believe that giving the base to Cerberus results in a human led galaxy.

It is TIM who mentions "we can use this base to secure human dominance in the galaxy, against the reapers and beyond". (then Shepard corrects him).  That would be where the notion comes from.

And the problem is...? TIM isn't against other races, he just doesn't care if the other races can't keep up.  He's the leader of a human centric organization, Turian military or STG would do the same thing, just noy say it.  I'm not really pro-Cerberus, but he's just being honest, assuming the galaxy even survives the Reapers.

Who says it's a problem?   If people make the decision to keep the base and it bites them in the ass, that's their problem, not mine.

[Ryzaki]

chris025657 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Sort-of ontopic and I don't believe I've seen it anywhere, I've also been unable to find it anywhere on the internet. Blue names are those who support blowing it up and Red being those who wanted to keep it. Just wrote it off my recent Paragon save.

-snip-

There was a thread about that here 

Legion has a pretty good response to Shepard's saying the base should be destroyed because it is an "abomination"

It's annoying how half the squad advocates keeping the base, some with good reasons, then all completely change their positions five minutes later. 

I felt Legion advocating keeping it to be a bit of a wallbanger considering what the Geth did with the Old Machines offer.

[Moiaussi]

Ryzaki wrote...

I felt Legion advocating keeping it to be a bit of a wallbanger considering what the Geth did with the Old Machines offer.

There is nothing strange about a bit of hypocracy there. After all, the Geth themselves are derived from older Quarian machines. Also, the Geth seem to advocate open choices. The more points of view to consider, the more 'open' a choice really is.

Legion might simply have been playing devil's advocate. 

[Oblarg]

I was very disappointed that the only rationale Shepard gives for destroying the base is "we won't lose our humanity just to win this war!" That's feeble, and it's certainly not the reason I destroyed the base.



I destroyed the base because I found it very hard to believe that simply killing all the collectors in it would leave it harmless. While the reapers didn't look too smart in ME2, I still found it hard to believe that there wouldn't be some failsafe hidden in the base which could have dire consequences later. It was the safer choice to destroy it.

[Dave of Canada]

Oblarg wrote...

I destroyed the base because I found it very hard to believe that simply killing all the collectors in it would leave it harmless. While the reapers didn't look too smart in ME2, I still found it hard to believe that there wouldn't be some failsafe hidden in the base which could have dire consequences later. It was the safer choice to destroy it.

I suspected there was no failsafe considering how the Reapers probably never imagined the base being attacked, the cycle would've already have been completed by now for example.

[Oblarg]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Oblarg wrote...

I destroyed the base because I found it very hard to believe that simply killing all the collectors in it would leave it harmless. While the reapers didn't look too smart in ME2, I still found it hard to believe that there wouldn't be some failsafe hidden in the base which could have dire consequences later. It was the safer choice to destroy it.

I suspected there was no failsafe considering how the Reapers probably never imagined the base being attacked, the cycle would've already have been completed by now for example.

You see, if this is true, the Reapers are a pretty pathetic villain.

Then again, pretty much everything in ME2 points to the reapers being rather moronic, so you could be on to something here.