504 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Besides the minor detail about terrorism. Minor minor.

[Nightwriter]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Can I comprehend that it takes you so much willpower? No, really I can't. Because it doesn't cost me that much. If I weren't able to forget these things, I wouldn't be able to enjoy the game. There's too much stuff that would break my suspension of disbelief if I'd take it at face value. So I play the game as if things like "exposed skin in space" didn't exist and hope we've complained enough about it that they'll fix it in the next game. A game that I had to treat like just a game would be of absolutely no interest to me - I need to believe in the game world, the story and its characters, and I need to pretend I can make realistic choices.

Consequently, I treat the Collector base decision as if it were real, as if I didn't know that it will, in fact, be perfectly possible to win without it. So much so that, being convinced that strategically and using only in-game knowledge, keeping the base is the only possible decision you can make, destroying it in those games where I do it to see the outcome in ME3 feels terribly contrived, and I'm constantly tempted to replay the suicide mission, rectifying the strategic mistake. Just the same with ME1 and Feros - not even trying to save the colonists makes no sense at all unless you're a callous jerk - only you *can* play a callous jerk without risking galactic extinction, so even that is not in the same league. Fortunately, in most cases you can justify both sides, or all my games would play out the same....

Can I ignore the fact that asari look like humans? Yep.

Can I ignore the fact that BioWare intends to write no "wrong" or "right" choices? Nope.

[Elite Midget]

Not really minor when your whole organization is built off terrorism...

[Dean_the_Young]

Except, it isn't by any working definition of what terrorism is, ie open, public,and intended to terrorize public/government compliance with open objectives.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 octobre 2010 - 11:26 .

[TMA LIVE]

Elite Midget wrote...

Not really minor when your whole organization is built off terrorism...

Plus, the only good things they've done without Shepard that we know of is that they resurrected Shepard, and gave Liara intel on the Shadow Broker. They have not shown anything to make use believe TIM won't use it against the Council races after the Reapers are destroyed. You'd only pick the base if you believe it's the only way to survive. I don't, so that's another reason I destroyed it.

[mosor]

Elite Midget wrote...

Blew it up on my canon playthrough.

The only thing I can trust TIM with is that he's a terrorist that will backstab me as soon as the Reapers are dealt with. .

So kill him once the reapers are dealt with. No matter how powerful and how evil TIM becomes from the collector base, hell never match the power the reapers have, and he isn't promising galactic extinction.

[lovgreno]

Just ignore those that needs to resort to insults and this may be a nice and constructive debate.



About the base: There are no right or wrong decisions in the ME story so if you must prove that the option you chose is the only right one you should try to think outside your box.

[Elite Midget]

You can still perform acts of terrorism without being out in the open about it if aids in pushing your agenda. Remember, TIM does has political allies and wants only said political allies holding any power since they would enable him to get away with more things or get policies he wants passed. It's no secret that Cerberus has dug its claws deep into Alliance politics. Getting humnanity to dominant the Universe will only help Cerberus since said allies of Cerberus would be in an even greater position to push the Cerberus agenda. Like TIM says, Cerberus benefits when humanity does and vice versa.

Not to mention that Cerberus has a habit of killing of those that don't agree with them or know too much about them.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 16 octobre 2010 - 11:44 .

[mosor]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

Not really minor when your whole organization is built off terrorism...

Plus, the only good things they've done without Shepard that we know of is that they resurrected Shepard, and gave Liara intel on the Shadow Broker. They have not shown anything to make use believe TIM won't use it against the Council races after the Reapers are destroyed. You'd only pick the base if you believe it's the only way to survive. I don't, so that's another reason I destroyed it.

What about EDI?

Here is a couple questions I've always asked in the past.

1. Why is Cerberus more of a threat than the reapers?
2. What other way do you believe will defeat the reapers? Do share. Does it involve assembling some massive fleet doing some bonzai charge against a reaper fleet which will result in massive casualties?
3. Why are you so certain you will be able to take down the reapers in ME3, but be unable to take down Cerberus if they have the base and get out of line?

Modifié par mosor, 16 octobre 2010 - 11:35 .

[2342]

In my mind the best reason to keep the base is to discover anything about indoctrination. After all it isn't their weapons or shields that make reapers so dangerous it is their seemingly unstoppable ability to turn organics into meat puppets. But unfortunately I just can't bring myself to trust Cerberus, the Alliance, Council, or even the Elcor to research something that is the equivalent of mind control without them or some else thinking, "Hey I can turn this research around and make the galaxy a much safer place."



I just don't see any going back once you open up the can of mind control worms. My opinion is probably colored by playing Assassin's Creed and watching Dollhouse but this is my opinion.

[Dean_the_Young]

Elite Midget wrote...

You can still perform acts of terrorism without being out in the open about it if aids in pushing your agenda. Remember, TIM does has political allies and wants only said political allies holding any power since they would enable him to get away with more things or get policies he wants passed. It's no secret that Cerberus has dug its claws deep into Alliance politics. Getting humnanity to dominant the Universe will only help Cerberus since said allies of Cerberus would be in an even greater position to push the Cerberus agenda. Like TIM says, Crberus benefits when humanity does and vice versa.

No, Midget.  Terrorism, by definition, is a public strategy.

Cerberus has political goals, but does not pursue them by open means meant to invoke, you know, terror. For all their acts, the only ones even known to the public are the failures, and those don't even qualify for mass terror campaigns of any sort.

Call them a cabal, for that is what they are. Call them criminals, for that is also what they are: Shepard in ME2 has a policy of recruiting cameras. But don't sling around emotionally evocative labels that are just wrong.

Not to mention that Cerberus has a habit of killing of those that don't agree with them or know too much about them.

No, only those who know too much.

Much like most secret agencies and governments do 'disappear' people who cross certain lines.

[Gibb_Shepard]

You people have discussed every possible outcome, have given every possible insult and have discussed every possible reason why the base should be kept/destroyed. Why does this thread continue to be remade. I mean already i've seen everyone say the exact same stuff that has been present at least 10 times in the previous threads. Neither side has changed their viewpoint, and recapping on what has already been discussed a ridiculous amount of times already won't change their viewpoint. This argument is now beyond redundant.

[mosor]

Nightwriter wrote...

Can I ignore the fact that BioWare intends to write no "wrong" or "right" choices? Nope.

Well most of us, especially who argue for saving the base, argue from an RP perspective. If we all took the metagamming perspective, then there really wouldn't be a discussion that rages on for 200+pages.  It would just boil down to if you want human dominance in your epilogue or not. The collector base is a brick on that road, but certainly not the entire road.

[Nightwriter]

mosor wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

Blew it up on my canon playthrough.

The only thing I can trust TIM with is that he's a terrorist that will backstab me as soon as the Reapers are dealt with. .

So kill him once the reapers are dealt with. No matter how powerful and how evil TIM becomes from the collector base, hell never match the power the reapers have, and he isn't promising galactic extinction.

You assume you will have options and freedoms the game may not allow you.

[mosor]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

You people have discussed every possible outcome, have given every possible insult and have discussed every possible reason why the base should be kept/destroyed. Why does this thread continue to be remade. I mean already i've seen everyone say the exact same stuff that has been present at least 10 times in the previous threads. Neither side has changed their viewpoint, and recapping on what has already been discussed a ridiculous amount of times already won't change their viewpoint. This argument is now beyond redundant.

It's addictive. It has a way of sucking you in. However if you don't like it, you don't have to read it. I've never clicked the Tali thread, because the topic doesn't interest me.

[Dean_the_Young]

2342 wrote...

In my mind the best reason to keep the base is to discover anything about indoctrination. After all it isn't their weapons or shields that make reapers so dangerous it is their seemingly unstoppable ability to turn organics into meat puppets. But unfortunately I just can't bring myself to trust Cerberus, the Alliance, Council, or even the Elcor to research something that is the equivalent of mind control without them or some else thinking, "Hey I can turn this research around and make the galaxy a much safer place."

I just don't see any going back once you open up the can of mind control worms. My opinion is probably colored by playing Assassin's Creed and watching Dollhouse but this is my opinion.

The only way indoctrination tech won't exist across the species after the Reapers is if the Reapers kill us all. Otherwise, species, governments, and groups will comb through the Reaper debris, and will look to reverse reaper abilities like indoctrination. This will happen regardless of whether you keep the base or not.

[Pacifien]

Okay, I want to make it clear that the last thread was not locked because of the topic, it was locked because of the behavior of those discussing the topic. Everyone here should have read the Site Rules. Respect the opinion of your fellow posters. Stay on-topic. That is all it takes to help ensure this thread doesn't get locked like its predecessors.

It doesn't matter if you think the other poster's opinion is flat-out wrong and ridiculous. You have to show some respect for the opinion you're debating, because if you don't, you're not respecting the poster and that is definitely against the Site Rules.

As these threads have had posting regulars, I expect them to self-moderate to a degree. If you see someone stepping out of bounds, redirect them to this post if you need to. I shouldn't have to step in every five pages during ongoing discussions just to remind people to play nice: they should already be doing that.

So to answer Dean_the_Young's question as to whether it would have been more effective to simply ban the offenders: no, it's not. I need everyone to play ball and if it takes several thread reboots to get everyone to understand that, then that's how we'll play it.

[mosor]

Nightwriter wrote...

mosor wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

Blew it up on my canon playthrough.

The only thing I can trust TIM with is that he's a terrorist that will backstab me as soon as the Reapers are dealt with. .

So kill him once the reapers are dealt with. No matter how powerful and how evil TIM becomes from the collector base, hell never match the power the reapers have, and he isn't promising galactic extinction.

You assume you will have options and freedoms the game may not allow you.

You don't know. Maybe Cerberus is destined to go down, regardless if you're renegade or paragon. Maybe it's destined to be a fact of life in the Mass Effect universe despite your choices.

Regardless, I suspect from a metagaming perspective (Because we all know we'll defeat the reapers.....damn losers) people destroy the base because they're afraid they won't get an opportunity to take down the illusive man in ME3 and want to head off human dominance.  People who save the base want Humanity to be dominant.

[Nightwriter]

mosor wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Can I ignore the fact that BioWare intends to write no "wrong" or "right" choices? Nope.

Well most of us, especially who argue for saving the base, argue from an RP perspective. If we all took the metagamming perspective, then there really wouldn't be a discussion that rages on for 200+pages.  It would just boil down to if you want human dominance in your epilogue or not. The collector base is a brick on that road, but certainly not the entire road.

I realize that, which is why I mostly stay out of the thread.

I don't have much to argue. In real life I would have kept the base, but only because I know I could control the outcome.

[Elite Midget]

My Renegade wanted to kill TIM after ME2 and take over Cerberus and my Paragon wanted to haul him. Obviously my Renegade wanted the base for himself while my Paragon, canon route, wanted the base destroyed since more bad than good would come from keeping it. Past history with murderous Reaper tech that was assumed to be safe doesn't really rub off well for him. Not to mention that innovations obtained with scraps provided more than intact Reaper tech.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No, Midget.  Terrorism, by definition, is a public strategy.

Cerberus has political goals, but does not pursue them by open means meant to invoke, you know, terror. For all their acts, the only ones even known to the public are the failures, and those don't even qualify for mass terror campaigns of any sort.

Call them a cabal, for that is what they are. Call them criminals, for that is also what they are: Shepard in ME2 has a policy of recruiting cameras. But don't sling around emotionally evocative labels that are just wrong.

Not to mention that Cerberus has a habit of killing of those that don't agree with them or know too much about them.

No, only those who know too much.

Much like most secret agencies and governments do 'disappear' people who cross certain lines.

Though their actions do inspire fear to the public though. Everyone that knows Cerberus knows that they're dealing with a very powerful organization that will have you killed if you try to cross them. Combined with the Cerberus agents in the Alliance military and government means that they have no trouble taking down big threats against them. Such as killing an Admiral in ME1. Cerberus had their allies stonewall him but when that didn't work Cerberus silenced him.

Maybe Terrorist might be too strong of a word but it's hard to place another name on them. After all, a Cabal isn't always evil nor doing the amount of inhumane things that Cerberus does. Criminal seems like too weak of a word...

[lovgreno]

Dean_the_Young wrote...The only way indoctrination tech won't exist across the species after the Reapers is if the Reapers kill us all. Otherwise, species, governments, and groups will comb through the Reaper debris, and will look to reverse reaper abilities like indoctrination. This will happen regardless of whether you keep the base or not.

The thing is that when there are no reapers to controll us via indoctrination reaper tech is not a risk of the magnitude it is now. Quislings controlled by reapers using the base as a indoctrinated base to spread their influence through the galaxy on the other hand may very well turn the coming conflict to the reapers favour.

[mosor]

Nightwriter wrote...

mosor wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Can I ignore the fact that BioWare intends to write no "wrong" or "right" choices? Nope.

Well most of us, especially who argue for saving the base, argue from an RP perspective. If we all took the metagamming perspective, then there really wouldn't be a discussion that rages on for 200+pages.  It would just boil down to if you want human dominance in your epilogue or not. The collector base is a brick on that road, but certainly not the entire road.

I realize that, which is why I mostly stay out of the thread.

I don't have much to argue. In real life I would have kept the base, but only because I know I could control the outcome.

True enough,  This thread is mostly arguing for the sake of arguing anyway, which I find to be fun at times.

[TMA LIVE]

mosor wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

Not really minor when your whole organization is built off terrorism...

Plus, the only good things they've done without Shepard that we know of is that they resurrected Shepard, and gave Liara intel on the Shadow Broker. They have not shown anything to make use believe TIM won't use it against the Council races after the Reapers are destroyed. You'd only pick the base if you believe it's the only way to survive. I don't, so that's another reason I destroyed it.

What about EDI?

Here is a couple questions I've always asked in the past.

1. Why is Cerberus more of a threat than the reapers?
2. What other way do you believe will defeat the reapers? Do share. Does it involve assembling some massive fleet doing some bonzai charge against a reaper fleet which will result in massive casualties?
3. Why are you so certain you will be able to take down the reapers in ME3, but be unable to take down Cerberus if they have the base and get out of line?

It's that the knowledge of what the Reapers can do can make Cerberus a great threat in the future. If they have the power of the Reapers, and you don't, then they can take you out (unless Bioware wants to bull**** it, and have Shepard take on Cerberus' fleet and destroy them all with one ship). To prevent them from leaking these secrets to anyone to find, you'd have to destroy and kills hundreds of people and bases. And you will never get everything. Eventually it will all leak out, and get into the wrong hands again. Kill TIM won't mean squat, and destroying the base later won't mean squat. 

No matter what, lots of people are going to die. No Reaper tech will stop that. All you're doing is increasing your chances. I don't believe I need advance tech just to win a war. I'll probably need it to keep more people alive. What I'm worried about is, once everyone's got their asses blown up, with everyone barely alive, is it going to be TIM who still has a fleet to take over the remains with advanced technology? If it is, he is a threat no matter what way you look at it.

All I know is that the Protheans died because they were surprised, and stood alone with no help. It was just them vs the Reapers, and they were caught in a surprised attack. Shepard, on the other hand, has the options to be prepared, with fleets from other races, and possible knowledge of their weak points based on the data EDI grabbed. Will that be enough? Who knows. I could say the same with can you defeat the reapers with tech alone, without the help of the other races? Who knows. Are there other options with the Protheans that we'll see in ME3? Who knows.

Honestly? I think the Paragon ending will equal Humanity sacrificing itself for the others races, which will result in the destruction of Earth. Humanity will become the new version of Quarians without a home world. The Alliance will be in pieces. But the other races will be ok.

While the Renegade ending will have Humanity being on top and ok, while the other races will be in pieces. Leaving them to take over them, and humanity running their lives.

It all depends on the story you want to tell.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 17 octobre 2010 - 12:05 .

[2342]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

2342 wrote...

In my mind the best reason to keep the base is to discover anything about indoctrination. After all it isn't their weapons or shields that make reapers so dangerous it is their seemingly unstoppable ability to turn organics into meat puppets. But unfortunately I just can't bring myself to trust Cerberus, the Alliance, Council, or even the Elcor to research something that is the equivalent of mind control without them or some else thinking, "Hey I can turn this research around and make the galaxy a much safer place."

I just don't see any going back once you open up the can of mind control worms. My opinion is probably colored by playing Assassin's Creed and watching Dollhouse but this is my opinion.

The only way indoctrination tech won't exist across the species after the Reapers is if the Reapers kill us all. Otherwise, species, governments, and groups will comb through the Reaper debris, and will look to reverse reaper abilities like indoctrination. This will happen regardless of whether you keep the base or not.

I think that reverse engineering indoctrination tech from a destroyed reaper like sovereign is slim to none. You would probably have a better chance by examining something like the  derelict reaper, but enough of those systems were intact enough were it continued indoctrinating people. My point is that if a reaper is intact enough to gain useful information on indoctrination then chances are that reaper can propably still indoctrinate. The collector base simple offers the best chance to research the one piece of tech that no one should have.

[Mecha Tengu]

blow up the base for kindergarden morality karma chocolate bar, a pat on your back from all your teamates and the majority of this community



or keep the base, swallow the red pill, make plans and save the fcking galaxy