504 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

Rekkampum wrote...

Your conditions are too narrow. You have not included chances that Cerberus already has knowledge of Reaper technology - which it does, considering EDI was created with it

EDI and the Thannix cannon were made using scraps from Sovereign,
there's a noticable difference between studying screaps and backwards
engineering it to our own uses than looking at the blueprints and
factory.

or that other races have advanced technology which could pose a significant threat to the Reapers.

Aside from the Reaper tech from Sovereign, most of the technology that the other species have is what the Reapers expected them to have, we don't have anything special compared to the other species that were wiped out countless times before.

Cerberus isn't interested in other races and their concerns, but the furthering of "humanity".

As would the Turian government want to seek advancement for the Turians.
As would the STG government want to seek advancement for the Salarians.
As would the Asari government want to seek advancement for the Asari.

It's a dog eat dog world. Probably the only reason we're fully capable of getting the Thannix Cannon is because Garrus is a turian, I doubt the Turians would've sold it to humans.

Paragon Shepard said that TIM would try to build his own Reaper and -voila! - we get the premise of Retributions. By far, the dangers that Cerberus poses - even to Humanity- are very underrated.

It was never to build a Reaper, it was to study the effects of indocrination and such. It wouldn't have gone as badly if the Turians / Anderson didn't involve themselves and freed the bastard. Excluding that little last bit, the research was a success as TIM and Cerberus found out more about indoctrination and the Reapers. Every little bit helps.

To note, it wasn't Reaper technology that was used to to defeat the Collectors, but the combined knowledge of the Council races and those affiliated.

With the help of Reaper tech. Without EDI alone, the mission would've suffered a lot more and could've resulted in failure.

One could say that people who kept the base "overestimated" the threat of the Reapers and the ingenuity of the very races themselves just as much as those implying the opposite, but that's irrelevant.

How can we overestimate a threat that's wiped galatic civilization countless times, almost won once (the battle for the Citadel) and required almost the entire human / alien fleet to destroy a single one?

[Rekkampum]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Aside from the Reaper tech from Sovereign, most of the technology that the other species have is what the Reapers expected them to have, we don't have anything special compared to the other species that were wiped out countless times before.

Speculation at best.

As would the Turian government want to seek advancement for the Turians.
As would the STG government want to seek advancement for the Salarians.
As would the Asari government want to seek advancement for the Asari.

It's a dog eat dog world. Probably the only reason we're fully capable of getting the Thannix Cannon is because Garrus is a turian, I doubt the Turians would've sold it to humans.

We have the Alliance. Cerberus, whose antics have included vicious and dehumanizing experiments, is the snake that eats its own tail. As for the Turians, I concur.

It was never to build a Reaper, it was to study the effects of indocrination and such. It wouldn't have gone as badly if the Turians / Anderson didn't involve themselves and freed the bastard. Excluding that little last bit, the research was a success as TIM and Cerberus found out more about indoctrination and the Reapers. Every little bit helps.

Whether it was a "success" or "failure" is left to personal taste, and it's actual merits have yet to be revealed, most likely in the final game.

With the help of Reaper tech. Without EDI alone, the mission would've suffered a lot more and could've resulted in failure.

While I agree on the ingenuity of EDI, Legion could just as easily replaced her role. The mission did not hinge upon her actions, although they were instrumental in their success.

How can we overestimate a threat that's wiped galatic civilization countless times, almost won once (the battle for the Citadel) and required almost the entire human / alien fleet to destroy a single one?

You are overlooking one key oversight in the logic of most who consider the threat of the Reapers. The Conduit, the singular tool used by the Reapers to ambush the many races, etc., has been destroyed. Their single greatest advantage no longer is an option. To note, a vast majority of the fleet used against Sovereign was the least advanced of all the Council races: the Alliance.

Modifié par Rekkampum, 22 novembre 2010 - 09:39 .

[Inverness Moon]

Rekkampum wrote...

Speculation at best.

Well-founded speculation.

Rekkampum wrote...

Whether it was a "success" or "failure" is left to personal taste, and it's actual merits have yet to be revealed, most likely in the final game.

Anything that gives us a better chance against the reapers is a success at this point. TIM did retrieve data from the experiment, which I imagine will become important in the next game.

Rekkampum wrote...


While I agree on the ingenuity of EDI, Legion could just as easily replaced her role. The mission did not hinge upon her actions, although they were instrumental in their success.

First of all, the collector ship mission happens before we're able to meet Legion. It is EDI's efforts that reveal the location of the collector homeworld and lead us to getting the reaper IFF to go through the relay. Secondly, EDI was designed from reaper technology and includes anti-reaper algorithms, the geth don't. Finally, you have no idea if Legion could have just downloaded himself into the ship and acted as the AI and have had the same success as EDI who was specifically designed to combat the reapers. Just because Legion and EDI are both AI does not mean you can just exchange one for the other and expect no difference in operation.


The Normandy would not have survived the collector attack on it if EDI had not been there.

Rekkampum wrote...

You are overlooking one key oversight in the logic of most who consider the threat of the Reapers. The Conduit, the singular tool used by the Reapers to ambush the many races, etc., has been destroyed. Their single greatest advantage no longer is an option. To note, a vast majority of the fleet used against Sovereign was the least advanced of all the Council races: the Alliance.

And this is where your argument falls apart. The Conduit was a miniature mass relay constructed by the protheans to act as a back door into the Citadel. It was never used by the reapers or their agents until Saren went to Ilos. The Citadel still exists and is the real back door that the reapers have been using, the destruction of the Conduit does not change that.

As for the Alliance, here is an excerpt from the wiki on the Alliance Navy:

"The Alliance Navy is one of the greater naval forces in Citadel space, rivaling that of the turians. Its military prowess has drawn the attention of the Citadel Council. While the Council is concerned about the possible outcome of another war between humans and turians, they are also keen to harness the Alliance Navy's peacekeeping potential, especially in unstable regions like the Skyllian Verge and the Attican Traverse. The Navy also makes humans an attractive prospect as the newest Council species."

Your understanding of the situation doesn't seem to be very accurate.

[Rekkampum]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Well-founded speculation.

Speculation nonetheless, which can be disproven. Point stands.

Anything that gives us a better chance against the reapers is a success at this point. TIM did retrieve data from the experiment, which I imagine will become important in the next game.

No one disputes that. However, we also have another potential problem due to the dynamic that Grayson himself poses. Again, the actual benefit, as you have conceded, will become evident in the next game.

First of all, the collector ship mission happens before we're able to meet Legion. It is EDI's efforts that reveal the location of the collector homeworld and lead us to getting the reaper IFF to go through the relay. Secondly, EDI was designed from reaper technology and includes anti-reaper algorithms, the geth don't. Finally, you have no idea if Legion could have just downloaded himself into the ship and acted as the AI and have had the same success as EDI who was specifically designed to combat the reapers. Just because Legion and EDI are both AI does not mean you can just exchange one for the other and expect no difference in operation.


The Normandy would not have survived the collector attack on it if EDI had not been there.

I was not speaking about that mission, but the event before the suicide mission. Your point is immaterial to this discussion as I did not deny the contributions of EDI to their success. Also note that even EDI mentioned that Legion was far more advanced than she was, as Legion is a single entity with over a thousand programs operating simultaneously. I think it's obvious that if we switched the two there would be a dramatic increase in operational potential.

And this is where your argument falls apart. The Conduit was a miniature mass relay constructed by the protheans to act as a back door into the Citadel. It was never used by the reapers or their agents until Saren went to Ilos. The Citadel still exists and is the real back door that the reapers have been using, the destruction of the Conduit does not change that.

As for the Alliance, here is an excerpt from the wiki on the Alliance Navy:

"The Alliance Navy is one of the greater naval forces in Citadel space, rivaling that of the turians. Its military prowess has drawn the attention of the Citadel Council. While the Council is concerned about the possible outcome of another war between humans and turians, they are also keen to harness the Alliance Navy's peacekeeping potential, especially in unstable regions like the Skyllian Verge and the Attican Traverse. The Navy also makes humans an attractive prospect as the newest Council species."

Your understanding of the situation doesn't seem to be very accurate.

Then my wording was off and I shouldn't have been so nebulous, since it does sound sort of arbitrary. I was referring to the Citadel itself, using the Conduit interchangeably, since the Citadel ostensibly is a relay used by the Reapers and maintained by the Keepers - although they apparently lost control of the Keepers for some reason. Saren failed at seizing control of the Citadel and activating the Relay that allows the Reapers to come, therefore barring them from their surprise invasion of the galaxy. Again, their chief advantage is shot.

Your last quote doesn't suggest in any way that they are more advanced than the Turians, who they fought and lost to. Perhaps you're reading too far into my comments. This isn't an argument, but a conversation willing to embrace both sides.

Modifié par Rekkampum, 23 novembre 2010 - 03:00 .

[Inverness Moon]

Rekkampum wrote...

I was not speaking about that mission, but the event before the suicide mission. Your point is immaterial to this discussion as I did not deny the contributions of EDI to their success. Also note that even EDI mentioned that Legion was far more advanced than she was, as Legion is a single entity with over a thousand programs operating simultaneously. I think it's obvious that if we switched the two there would be a dramatic increase in operational potential.

You denied that EDI was essential the success of Shepard's mission to deal with the collectors, which is not supported by events in the game.

Also, I'd like to know when EDI says that Legion is far more advanced than her. Legion having more individual programs is not relevant when comparing his capabilities to EDI's. Additionally, unlike Legion and the rest of the geth, EDI was designed to deal with the reapers and is based upon technology salvaged from Sovereign. That is the reason why EDI can even hope to stand up to the reapers that are millions of years old. You're attempting to simply overlook that and claim that Legion could fit her role better than she could based on what exactly?

Rekkampum wrote...

Then my wording was off and I shouldn't have been so nebulous, since it does sound sort of arbitrary. I was referring to the Citadel itself, using the Conduit interchangeably, since the Citadel ostensibly is a relay used by the Reapers and maintained by the Keepers - although they apparently lost control of the Keepers for some reason. Saren failed at seizing control of the Citadel and activating the Relay that allows the Reapers to come, therefore barring them from their surprise invasion of the galaxy. Again, their chief advantage is shot.

The element of surprise was lost, but that isn't going to matter if takes entire fleet to destroy a single reaper. And lets be perfectly clear that Sovereign was only destroyed because Shepard defeated it while it was in control of Saren's body. We don't even know why that caused it to lose power. It also showed no signs of weakening before that.

There were about 300 reapers in the ending scene of Mass Effect 2. They're are obviously more than a match for every known military power combined. There is nothing to suggest that Sovereign's defeat at the Citadel did anything but give us more time. And nearly everyone in the galaxy is not using that time to prepare to face the reapers.

Rekkampum wrote...

Your last quote doesn't suggest in any way that they are more advanced than the Turians, who they fought and lost to. Perhaps you're reading too far into my comments. This isn't an argument, but a conversation willing to embrace both sides.

I did not quote that entry in order to suggest that the Alliance was more advanced than the turians, but rather to refute your claim that the Alliance was weaker than the other 3 council races. The turians were considered to be the greatest military force before humanity came around.

Also, if you think the Alliance fought and lost to the turians during the First Contact War then I think you need to reread the codex/wiki entry on that.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 23 novembre 2010 - 04:13 .

[Count Viceroy]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Also, if you think the Alliance fought and lost to the turians during the First Contact War then I think you need to reread the codex/wiki entry on that.

Humanity won the battle but the turians would have won the war. The council stepped in and saved our arses.

It was a small turian patrol attacking and temporarily conquering a station, effectivly a border skirmish.  Then that patrol was wiped out by a whole human fleet. Hardly fair odds. Had the council not stepped in the turians would have steamrolled humanity within a month.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 23 novembre 2010 - 04:16 .

[Inverness Moon]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Also, if you think the Alliance fought and lost to the turians during the First Contact War then I think you need to reread the codex/wiki entry on that.

Humanity won the battle but the turians would have won the war. The council stepped in and saved our arses.

It was a small turian patrol attacking and temporarily conquering a station, effectivly a border skirmish.  Then that patrol was wiped out by a whole human fleet. Hardly fair odds. Had the council not stepped in the turians would have steamrolled humanity within a month.

Speculation on who would have won the war had it not ended there is not relevant to my counterargument. My point was that the turians did not win the First Contact War any more than the Alliance did.

Next, Shanxi is a planetary colony, not a station. Also, where did you find your information on the number of turian forces that occupied Shanxi compared to the number of Alliance ships that came to evict them?

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 23 novembre 2010 - 05:04 .

[Count Viceroy]

 We had nothing on the turians at the time, and at best we've mannaged to play a bit of catch up, but it's reasonable to assume we're not in their league military wise (yet).

I'd say humanity lost when the Council brokered a peace on their behalf.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 23 novembre 2010 - 04:20 .

[Inverness Moon]

Count Viceroy wrote...

 We had nothing on the turians at the time, and at best we've mannaged to play a bit of catch up, but it's reasonable to assume we're not in their league military wise (yet).

I'd say humanity lost when the Council brokered a peace on their behalf.

On what do you base your assumption that the Alliance had nothing on the turians at the time?

The First Contact War and the Battle of Shanxi created a great amount of mistrust between humans and turians. However, Shanxi also proved humanity's tenacity and military strength. It impressed the turians and the galactic community as a whole, because apart from the krogan, the turians had previously found no equals in war. The battle created a lot of interest in humans on the Citadel.

Here is an excerpt from the codex entry on Alliance military doctrine:

The Alliance military is of great concern to the galaxy. At first contact with the turians, they were completely inexperienced. Turian disdain turned to respect after the relief of Shanxi, where the humans surprised them with novel technologies and tactics.

The human devotion to understanding and adapting to modern space warfare stunned the staid Council races. For hundreds of years, they had lived behind the secure walls of long-proven technology and tactics. The Council regards the Alliance as a "sleeping giant". Less than 3% of humans volunteer to serve in their military, a lower proportion than any other species.

Anyhow, the point I'm making is that the Alliance certainly is in the same league as the turian military. If anyone is going to claim that the turians would curb stomp the Alliance if the Council hadn't stepped in then they need to back it up.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 23 novembre 2010 - 04:53 .

[Count Viceroy]

Inverness Moon wrote...


On what do you base your assumption that the Alliance had nothing on the turians at the time?

On the simple fact that the turians had been around for a long time, fought multiple wars and had a fleet the size the alliance never could match (Still does, dreadnaughts and obviously smaller ships as well) Turians have a massive empire and are a society based around warfare, that would suggest a huge production capacity. All this, at the time when humans took their first steps outside their solar system poking at relays and tech they were just begining to understand.

What impressed the turians was the ferocity and efficiency such an underdog displayed in defending it self, but the victory is self was due to size of the fleet. The turians would still have stomped us into the ground in any evenly matched conflict. What the humans have done in the last 30 years is ridiculous enough but to claim that they would have been able to go toe to toe with the turians shortly after taking their first proper space steps is a fool notion.

It would be like a 'random african nation of choice'  in proper combat against the US and expecting them to win.

The Alliance military is of great concern to the galaxy. At first contact with the turians, they were completely inexperienced. Turian disdain turned to respect after the relief of Shanxi, where the humans surprised them with novel technologies and tactics.

The human devotion to understanding and adapting to modern space warfare stunned the staid Council races. For hundreds of years, they had lived behind the secure walls of long-proven technology and tactics. The Council regards the Alliance as a "sleeping giant". Less than 3% of humans volunteer to serve in their military, a lower proportion than any other species.

Novel = unusual. It's fair to assume the turian military would have stagnated a bit since the last major conflict was with the krogans for some time ago, and thus a new player with its inherit tactics and technology would be considered novel and strange for a time, but it speaks nothing of their strength compared to the turians.

After all, the krogans are brutish warriors that will try to beat their target into submission or die trying. After being used to that, seeing an enemy using the simplest methods of flanking and covering fire might seem 'novel'. 

Anyhow, the point I'm making is that the Alliance certainly is in the same league as the turian military. If anyone is going to claim that the turians would curb stomp the Alliance if the Council hadn't stepped in then they need to back it up.

The alliance has gained a lot of power, I'm not denying that. Fleet size not withstanding, they might be able to dance with the turians, now. The first contact war? not so much.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 23 novembre 2010 - 05:14 .

[Rekkampum]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Also, I'd like to know when EDI says that Legion is far more advanced than her. Legion having more individual programs is not relevant when comparing his capabilities to EDI's. Additionally, unlike Legion and the rest of the geth, EDI was designed to deal with the reapers and is based upon technology salvaged from Sovereign. That is the reason why EDI can even hope to stand up to the reapers that are millions of years old. You're attempting to simply overlook that and claim that Legion could fit her role better than she could based on what exactly?

No, I'm not. Perhaps I did exaggerate a bit, because EDI doesn't exactly state that, but does note how complex Legion is when they interface during a conversation, so that's on me. Again, I'm not negating EDI or her contributions. If it seems that I'm diminishing them, then I retract that, but I am noting that while EDI certainly is the best - she did hack the Collector base and upload Reaper schematics, after all - choice, we still have a viable alternative in Legion, given his ability to interface with the geth consciousness. Perhaps a hub could be constructed on the Normandy that allows him to do this.

The element of surprise was lost, but that isn't going to matter if takes entire fleet to destroy a single reaper. And lets be perfectly clear that Sovereign was only destroyed because Shepard defeated it while it was in control of Saren's body. We don't even know why that caused it to lose power. It also showed no signs of weakening before that.

There were about 300 reapers in the ending scene of Mass Effect 2. They're are obviously more than a match for every known military power combined. There is nothing to suggest that Sovereign's defeat at the Citadel did anything but give us more time. And nearly everyone in the galaxy is not using that time to prepare to face the reapers.

Time can change a lot of things, and a little bit is better than none. Note that we just recently learned of a race so intelligent and violent they were quarantined to a single planet (the Yahg), and we have yet to see where the Rachni and the other races sure to pop up in the third that we haven't heard about are in terms of technology. Of course the situation is dire - I'm not seeing this situation with Rose-colored glasses, if you will - but it is certainly more hopeful than before. Although I kept the Base in some of my player saves, I didn't necessarily throw away hope when I chose the paragon position: after all, the original signal normally sent to the Keepers at the Citadel failed, thereby throwing their whole cycle of destruction off track. That in itself is a significant step forward, regardless of how minor.

I did not quote that entry in order to suggest that the Alliance was more advanced than the turians, but rather to refute your claim that the Alliance was weaker than the other 3 council races. The turians were considered to be the greatest military force before humanity came around.

Also, if you think the Alliance fought and lost to the turians during the First Contact War then I think you need to reread the codex/wiki entry on that.

I was referring to the incident at Shanxi, and I was speaking to being advanced in terms of overall knowledge regarding space technology, but I will stand corrected otherwise. Perhaps I doubt our ingenuity as well.

Modifié par Rekkampum, 23 novembre 2010 - 06:11 .

[Inverness Moon]

Count Viceroy wrote...

On the simple fact that the turians had been around for a long time, fought multiple wars and had a fleet the size the alliance never could match (Still does, dreadnaughts and obviously smaller ships as well) Turians have a massive empire and are a society based around warfare, that would suggest a huge production capacity. All this, at the time when humans took their first steps outside their solar system poking at relays and tech they were just begining to understand.

How long the turians have been around and how many wars they have fought would be good points, but they don't seem to be significant enough according to the codex. If you're suggesting the Alliance could never match the power of the turian military then I completely disagree. Also, warfare isn't just a numbers game:

"While competent, Alliance soldiers are neither as professional as the turians nor as skilled as the asari. Their strengths lie in fire support, flexibility, and speed. They make up for lack of numbers with sophisticated technical support (V.I.s, drones, artillery, electronic warfare) and emphasis on mobility and individual initiative."

And "just beginning to understand?" The codex information about the Alliance Navy and the discovery of the prothean data cache on Mars shows that the Alliance is quite a bit further in technological and military capabilities than "just beginning to understand."

The Alliance doesn't understand the mass relays any more or less than the rest of the galaxy.

Count Viceroy wrote...

What impressed the turians was the ferocity and efficiency such an underdog displayed in defending it self, but the victory is self was due to size of the fleet. The turians would still have stomped us into the ground in any evenly matched conflict. What the humans have done in the last 30 years is ridiculous enough but to claim that they would have been able to go toe to toe with the turians shortly after taking their first proper space steps is a fool notion.

It would be like a 'random african nation of choice'  in proper combat against the US and expecting them to win.

You're making plenty of claims but you have yet to back them up with anything substantial. As I said before, the codex entries refute your claim that the Alliance would have been at a significant disadvantage in a war with the turians. If you want to argue the point, back your claims up with some evidence.

Count Viceroy wrote...

Novel = unusual. It's fair to assume the turian military would have stagnated a bit since the last major conflict was with the krogans for some time ago, and thus a new player with its inherit tactics and technology would be considered novel and strange for a time, but it speaks nothing of their strength compared to the turians.

After all, the krogans are brutish warriors that will try to beat their target into submission or die trying. After being used to that, seeing an enemy using the simplest methods of flanking and covering fire might seem 'novel'. 

You're associating "novel technologies and tactics" with "simplest methods of flanking and covering fire" based on absolutely nothing. That is a very poor comparison.

Count Viceroy wrote...

The alliance has gained a lot of power, I'm not denying that. Fleet size not withstanding, they might be able to dance with the turians, now. The first contact war? not so much.

Again, the codex indicates that the Alliance military power at the time of the First Contact War drew significant attention because it was a match for the turians (not necessarily an even match). On what do you base your claim that the Alliance was not in the same league as the turians at that time but has since been able to reach the same level?

Rekkampum wrote...

No, I'm not. Perhaps I did exaggerate a bit, because EDI doesn't exactly state that, but does note how complex Legion is when they interface during a conversation, so that's on me. Again, I'm not negating EDI or her contributions. If it seems that I'm diminishing them, then I retract that, but I am noting that while EDI certainly is the best - she did hack the Collector base and upload Reaper schematics, after all - choice, we still have a viable alternative in Legion, given his ability to interface with the geth consciousness. Perhaps a hub could be constructed on the Normandy that allows him to do this.

I agree that Legion is a viable alternative as an AI that could provide the Normandy with advanced EWAR capabilities. But I'm highly doubtful that the mission would have succeeded had Legion been there from the beginning and not EDI.

Rekkampum wrote...

Time can change a lot of things, and a little bit is better than none. Note that we just recently learned of a race so intelligent and violent they were quarantined to a single planet (the Yahg), and we have yet to see where the Rachni and the other races sure to pop up in the third that we haven't heard about are in terms of technology. Of course the situation is dire - I'm not seeing this situation with Rose-colored glasses, if you will - but it is certainly more hopeful than before. Although I kept the Base in some of my player saves, I didn't necessarily throw away hope and choose the paragon position: after all, the original signal normally sent to the Keepers at the Citadel failed, thereby throwing their whole cycle of destruction off track. That in itself is a significant step forward, regardless of how minor.

Time can change a lot of things, but it didn't seem to change much for the Citadel races as far as their technological capabilities go in the time before humanity arrived on the galactic scene.

The rachni could be a game-changer, but they don't even exist any longer in all playthroughs. You would be right to say that Shepard now has some significant allies now, and that the reaper's cycle has been disrupted. But then again, we still don't know when they will arrive and what numbers they will arrive in. We already know that the Citadel and Alliance fleets were insignificant against a single reaper. Nothing has changed that would suggest to me that we have anything beyond a 1% chance of surviving.

The stakes are too high to do anything but everything you can to increase your chances against the reapers. That means destroying the collector base is a terrible idea.

Rekkampum wrote...

I was referring to the incident at Shanxi, and I was speaking to being advanced in terms of overall knowledge regarding space technology, but I will stand corrected otherwise. Perhaps I doubt our ingenuity as well.

Humans came very far very quickly after their discovery of the prothean data cache, enough for them to be considered a significant military power in the same league as the turians by the time of the First Contact War. The Alliance is quite capable and innovative when it comes to space warfare.

[Rekkampum]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Time can change a lot of things, but it didn't seem to change much for the Citadel races as far as their technological capabilities go in the time before humanity arrived on the galactic scene.

The rachni could be a game-changer, but they don't even exist any longer in all playthroughs. You would be right to say that Shepard now has some significant allies now, and that the reaper's cycle has been disrupted. But then again, we still don't know when they will arrive and what numbers they will arrive in. We already know that the Citadel and Alliance fleets were insignificant against a single reaper. Nothing has changed that would suggest to me that we have anything beyond a 1% chance of surviving.

The stakes are too high to do anything but everything you can to increase your chances against the reapers. That means destroying the collector base is a terrible idea.

Actually, the Rachni Queen's representative will hold a conversation with you on Illium if you saved her in ME, so them not appearing on the saves of those who did is unlikely - especially since Bioware didn't shy away from boasting about there being over 1000 variables in ME3. Even the minor shreds of knowledge regarding Sovereign gave the Council races a number of advances, especially in combat. Again, the additional knowledge EDI acquires at the end is worth noting, as is what information TIM discovered when they experimented on Grayson.

Even a 1% chance of survival is significant, given the continuous ground we're making.

I have a strong feeling that Bioware will give the players more than one way to defeat the Reaper threat - as the two paths will naturally be vastly different if you salvaged or destroyed the Collector Base. I purposely made several Shepards just for this, and given the magnitude of this game, I'm sure those on either side of this discussion will be satisfied if not impressed.

[Count Viceroy]

Inverness Moon wrote...

I dislike the huge walls of quotes. I'm not going to do another one.


The cache was found 2148. The charon relay was found in 2156. The shanxi incident occured in 2157. A mere 9 years after the cache bumped our technology forward by a significant level. It's not reasonable for humans which was still a single system until 2156 to have a military strong enough to even compete with the galactic fleet of the turians, nor is it in any way realistic to suggest that they'd be able understand, develop and then retro fit their exsisting fleet or more likely build a new one from the ground up based on this new technology in 9 short years. No way. 

Also, the codex is not a reliable source for *everything*. It's written from an in character point of view. The one we have access to is obviously a human database and of course it wouldn't go out of its way to suggest the enemy was superior. Simple example of the inaccuracy of the codex would be that it still withholds that the citadel and relays were created by the protheans. It's someones take on events, not an encyclopedia. Can bet your arse that a turian database would explain it differently.

My mention of covering fire and flanking was just a basic example that would differentiate them from the krogan, nothing else.

We'll have to agree to disagree here I suppose, it's simply not realisitc to assume that humans, a race with a single world and 9 years experience of a technology would be even any where near the same level as the turians who has a huge galactic empire and a fleet to boot, not to mention they've been using this tech and developed it further for over 900 years.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 23 novembre 2010 - 06:49 .

[aimlessgun]

Holy moly 20 pages again.

No poll option for: "Was disgusted by lack of obvious "Keep it for Alliance/Citadel" 3rd path"?

As for the choice in the game, it's pretty simple, depending on one thing.

Does Reaper technology/mind control = space magic?

If unstoppable space magic, then destruction is the best course.
If it's actually science, then keeping it is the best course.

Unless you're sentimental and want it gone because it liquified a bunch of people, or you just wanted to stick it to TIM. Those are slightly less valid paths of reasoning if we assume galactic savior is your goal ^ ^

Modifié par aimlessgun, 23 novembre 2010 - 12:36 .

[chris025657]

aimlessgun wrote...

Holy moly 20 pages again.

No poll option for: "Was disgusted by lack of obvious "Keep it for Alliance/Citadel" 3rd path"?

As for the choice in the game, it's pretty simple, depending on one thing.

Does Reaper technology/mind control = space magic?

If unstoppable space magic, then destruction is the best course.
If it's actually science, then keeping it is the best course.

Unless you're sentimental and want it gone because it liquified a bunch of people, or you just wanted to stick it to TIM. Those are slightly less valid paths of reasoning if we assume galactic savior is your goal ^ ^

That seems like a bit of a different question to me. Most people seem to destroy the base out of a desire not to give it to TIM. If there was an option to give to the Alliance or Council, I imagine many more people would keep it. Maybe I'll make a poll for that.

In regards to indoctrination, some people regard this as a reason not to study the base. But I feel it would be useful to study indoctrination. Indoctrination seems to be a major weapon of the Reapers. Even after the Reapers successfully ambushed the bulk of the Protheans, they still chose to use the indoctrinated to infiltrate the remaining Protheans. 

[Inverness Moon]

Count Viceroy wrote...

I dislike the huge walls of quotes. I'm not going to do another one.

The cache was found 2148. The charon relay was found in 2156. The shanxi incident occured in 2157. A mere 9 years after the cache bumped our technology forward by a significant level. It's not reasonable for humans which was still a single system until 2156 to have a military strong enough to even compete with the galactic fleet of the turians, nor is it in any way realistic to suggest that they'd be able understand, develop and then retro fit their exsisting fleet or more likely build a new one from the ground up based on this new technology in 9 short years. No way. 

Also, the codex is not a reliable source for *everything*. It's written from an in character point of view. The one we have access to is obviously a human database and of course it wouldn't go out of its way to suggest the enemy was superior. Simple example of the inaccuracy of the codex would be that it still withholds that the citadel and relays were created by the protheans. It's someones take on events, not an encyclopedia. Can bet your arse that a turian database would explain it differently.

My mention of covering fire and flanking was just a basic example that would differentiate them from the krogan, nothing else.

We'll have to agree to disagree here I suppose, it's simply not realisitc to assume that humans, a race with a single world and 9 years experience of a technology would be even any where near the same level as the turians who has a huge galactic empire and a fleet to boot, not to mention they've been using this tech and developed it further for over 900 years.

Whether you believe that is possible or not doesn't change what the codex says. We also do not know how quickly the Alliance could build ships after they retrieved the knowledge from the data cache. We also don't know what their military capability would be of humanity as a whole mobilized for total war. You have nothing to back up your argument other than assumptions about how far humanity could come in 9 years and how large and capable the turian military is compared to the Alliance.

On the codex, first of all, to attack my source of information instead of my actual claims is a logical fallacy. Secondly, how do you know the codex is a human written database and not a galactic standard maintained by all Citadel races? Thirdly, the inaccuracy of the codex regarding the Citadel and the mass relays in no way supports your argument that the codex is biased towards to human point of view. No citadel species has acknowledged the existence of the reapers so it is logical to assume that a galactic codex would not be updated with that information.

What makes you think the krogan aren't familiar with those basic combat tactics?

You also don't know how large the turian military is compared to the Alliance. But even then, the codex said on the Alliance:

They make up for lack of numbers with sophisticated technical support (V.I.s, drones, artillery, electronic warfare) and emphasis on mobility and individual initiative.

This isn't just a numbers game so you can't just cite numbers when determining the comparative strength of the turians and the Alliance.

As for the turians having used and developed their technology for 900 years. First of all, Anderson notes that the prothean data cache jumped their technology forward 200 years. Secondly, the codex says on that:

The human devotion to understanding and adapting to modern space warfare stunned the staid Council races. For hundreds of years, they had lived behind the secure walls of long-proven technology and tactics.

Again your argument seems to be based on time, and an assumption of a steady increase of military capability over a constant period of time that is not supported by the codex.

[Rekkampum]

chris025657 wrote...

That seems like a bit of a different question to me. Most people seem to destroy the base out of a desire not to give it to TIM. If there was an option to give to the Alliance or Council, I imagine many more people would keep it. Maybe I'll make a poll for that.

Yep. I only have one Paragon Shepard that kept the Base. All the others were Renegade. I would have kept it if the option were available most of the time, but then again I just didn't like the mind games of TIM - and there was the lingering threat that unexpected Indoctrination was possible - like what happened on the derelict Reaper- so I thought it best not to screw around with it on most my playthroughs.

In regards to indoctrination, some people regard this as a reason not to study the base. But I feel it would be useful to study indoctrination. Indoctrination seems to be a major weapon of the Reapers. Even after the Reapers successfully ambushed the bulk of the Protheans, they still chose to use the indoctrinated to infiltrate the remaining Protheans. 

Most likely the Reapers use Indoctrination so much because it is the most efficient means to their ends. Their interest in studying and observing the progression of a species while masking their own existence during their "extermination periods" would naturally require more reclusive methods and a control group they could manipulate to guide societal advancement along their own terms, so subtlety seems to fit them, especially in the case of war.

[Count Viceroy]

Inverness Moon wrote...

http://tvtropes.org/...umansAreSpecial

There we go.

[Arijharn]

I'm inclined to believe that during the First Contact War, humanity could make significant advances into Turian space and even win key battles, they could not hope to win the war due to the political and military support that would be available to the Turian's. This has nothing to do with how capable the Turian's or the humans, but is an actual numbers game based off what is available to each species. The Turian's, for example, have the Asari and the Salarian's and if the humans gain a lot of ground, then chances are there'd be Spectre involvement as well (obviously, this would be limited somewhat, obviously no one can just dress up as a human and expect to get away with it, but they are infiltration specialists). There is no way that humanity could eventually stop the snowball that turns into an avalanche against the alien species (especially considering if humanity is very successful) if the Turian's actually mobilized for full-scale war.



Nowadays, a war between humanity and the turian's would scorch half the galaxy, but that's another matter altogether.





As a complete aside; Indoctrination is about the only weapon of there's that we don't understand, it's imperative for us to find ways to thwart it. Even if the reaper in the basement of the CB can still indoctrinate, then the risk is more acceptable to expose people to it then (where monitoring can be performed in scientific conditions) then when the Reapers actually invade, because we know that when the Reapers do invade, they will indoctrinate.

[Rekkampum]

Arijharn wrote...

As a complete aside; Indoctrination is about the only weapon of there's that we don't understand, it's imperative for us to find ways to thwart it. Even if the reaper in the basement of the CB can still indoctrinate, then the risk is more acceptable to expose people to it then (where monitoring can be performed in scientific conditions) then when the Reapers actually invade, because we know that when the Reapers do invade, they will indoctrinate.

That only makes sense if there was a way of identifying when a person has been indoctrinated, which is virtually impossible except in the most banal of circumstances. That of course leads to a circularity because if we can't tangibly identify a person who's been indoctrinated, how can we determine if the person studying the indoctrinated person hasn't been indoctrinated themselves, and so on? This is precisely why the indoctrinated were often used as "sleeper agents" to further the will of the Reapers.

[Zulu_DFA]

Arijharn wrote...

I'm inclined to believe that during the First Contact War, humanity could make significant advances into Turian space and even win key battles, they could not hope to win the war due to the political and military support that would be available to the Turian's. This has nothing to do with how capable the Turian's or the humans, but is an actual numbers game based off what is available to each species. The Turian's, for example, have the Asari and the Salarian's and if the humans gain a lot of ground, then chances are there'd be Spectre involvement as well (obviously, this would be limited somewhat, obviously no one can just dress up as a human and expect to get away with it, but they are infiltration specialists). There is no way that humanity could eventually stop the snowball that turns into an avalanche against the alien species (especially considering if humanity is very successful) if the Turian's actually mobilized for full-scale war.

I am inclined to doubt the Turians' ability to crush Human even if they were allowed by their Asari masters to try. Think Persian-Greek wars for a moment... Superior tactics > superior numbers. Even if they could, the cost would be unacceptably high . Which was probably the reason the war was vetoed.



Come on, guys, face it. It's easier, cheaper and for everybody's best that the aliens submit themselves to the Human rule!

[Inverness Moon]

Arijharn wrote...

I'm inclined to believe that during the First Contact War, humanity could make significant advances into Turian space and even win key battles, they could not hope to win the war due to the political and military support that would be available to the Turian's. This has nothing to do with how capable the Turian's or the humans, but is an actual numbers game based off what is available to each species. The Turian's, for example, have the Asari and the Salarian's and if the humans gain a lot of ground, then chances are there'd be Spectre involvement as well (obviously, this would be limited somewhat, obviously no one can just dress up as a human and expect to get away with it, but they are infiltration specialists). There is no way that humanity could eventually stop the snowball that turns into an avalanche against the alien species (especially considering if humanity is very successful) if the Turian's actually mobilized for full-scale war. 

First of all, we should be clear about who is involved in the war. We've been discussing a war only against the turians, involving the other two council races is something else entirely.

Secondly, I doubt the asari or salarians are going to help the turians in their war effort unless they believe the turians are in the right, not just because they're also on the council. The turians obviously aren't in the right in this case.

Rekkampum wrote...

That only makes sense if there was a way of identifying when a person has been indoctrinated, which is virtually impossible except in the most banal of circumstances. That of course leads to a circularity because if we can't tangibly identify a person who's been indoctrinated, how can we determine if the person studying the indoctrinated person hasn't been indoctrinated themselves, and so on? This is precisely why the indoctrinated were often used as "sleeper agents" to further the will of the Reapers.

The obvious solution to this problem is to copy all data from the collector base computers and have the information transported to a remote location for decryption and analysis so that the people searching the data for information on indoctrination aren't onsite.

Also important is the fact that indoctrination takes time and won't happen instantly which is plenty of time to do what I just mentioned.

If that can't be done then simply place someone on the base for however long it takes for the effects of indoctrination to become observable. The logs from the derelict reaper will supply an appropriate time frame.

[LorDC]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
I am inclined to doubt the Turians' ability to crush Human even if they were allowed by their Asari masters to try. Think Persian-Greek wars for a moment... Superior tactics > superior numbers. Even if they could, the cost would be unacceptably high . Which was probably the reason the war was vetoed.

Come on, guys, face it. It's easier, cheaper and for everybody's best that the aliens submit themselves to the Human rule!

You actually repeat argumentation of human ambassador in Revelation. "You can go war on us but it will cost you too much." Obviously it worked.

[General User]

I also believe humanity would have won, or at least "not lost" the First Contact War, had it continued. It's a fascinating question.