504 réponses à ce sujet

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

Gonna die anyway. Probably heat-death.

Nonsense, the universe is cyclic. Think of a sine wave. It is the most logical course of action. 

[Dave of Canada]

iakus wrote...

1) Cerberus has a rather poor overall track record when it comes to playing around with aliens and alien tech.  I mean, how many messes did Shepard have to clean up over ME 1 and 2 when something goes haywire?

We don't see their successes because TIM and the Cerberus network wouldn't tell Shepard "Come to X planet, we've had a success!". The Alliance and such have a lot of screw ups too.

+ the majority of the screw ups you go clean up is because their initial project worked TOO well. For example, Overlord proved that Geth could be controlled.

2) This sorta ties in to #1:  potential booby traps.  I'm not talking about just self-destruct mechanisms or dormant husks.  I mean indoctrination gizmos.

Possible but I doubt heavily that these devices are active, the Collectors didn't require indocrination and nobody was supposed to reach the base. The indoctrination devices are possibly inactive and used for their reaper / husk factory line.

Even if such devices were active, we would've probably have seen some of it effecting the captured crew / colonists.

3) I admit a worst case scenerio: we end up fighting Cerberus with Reaper tech.

I'm glad you didn't suggest TIM would slaughter the aliens immediately before the Reapers arrive, so here's a [non-sarcastic] cookie.

Cerberus is too small of a group to deal any lasting damage, a lot smaller if you consider what happened in the novel (though that's metagaming). The threat that a "rogue" Cerberus presents is a lot less than t

However, I am also of the belief that the key to defeating the Reapers is not in immitating them or duplicating their abilities, but in finding our own way.  For millions of years they have manipulated the course of developement in intelligent life.  They have been writing the playbook, so to speak.  The answer is going to be in learning our own tricks.  Learning something the Reapers don't know yet, Using a weapon the Reapers haven't developed themselves.  The base may teach us who ansd what the Reapers are.  But it won't show us how to win.

Two parter:

The Reapers have drawn a line that says "This is how a species should evolve.", humans and such have crossed that line already and it assisted in the destruction of the Collectors. Without advanced Reaper tech, we wouldn't have the Thannix Cannon or EDI.

They never expected anybody to go further than maybe Mass Relay travel, it's why the Protheans (when they created their own Mass Relay) were capable of screwing their next cycle and how the current cycle was capable of stopping them twice. Further forbidden technology should advance our weapons and defenses years ahead of it's time, far too advanced for the Reapers to go "wut".

Engineering our own weapon without Reaper tech is probably impossible due to how much Reaper tech is involved with current technology. What seperates Reaper and "Human" tech is a very fine line and anything somebody could think of was probably already done or requires too much of the Reaper tech to have any noticeable difference.

---

Let's imagine for a second we don't develop any weapons against the Reapers with the Collector Base. What else could we find?

Research into indoctrination. Prevention, maybe curing.
The ability to make Seeker Swarms.
Research into constructing a Reaper, the weakness of it's weapons and shielding.

Those three above should be a major advantage.


(Hope that made sense, I'm barely aware of my surroundings writing this)

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 17 octobre 2010 - 01:59 .

[UpDownLeftRight]

Shandepared wrote...

UpDownLeftRight wrote...

This is getting offtopic. I suggest that the correspondence should turn back to it's main topic unless this thread is to be locked.

If all life is meaningless then there is no point in fighting the Reapers.

Gonna die anyway. Probably heat-death.

Your point?

And this is not the original topic. The topic is about the keeping/not keeping the collector base.

[chris025657]

The meaning of life isn't related to the Collector base decision. Please both just drop it and try to keep this on topic.

[Gibb_Shepard]

chris025657 wrote...

 I don't think this is a bad topic: there's just two people making personal attacks that got the previous threads closed.  

No more personal attacks allowed for this thread. You know who you are. 

 Anyway, why did you destroy or keep the Collector base?

Reposted my reasons from the previous thread:

"I prefer to keep the base for two reasons; first a significant technological imbalance, and second an asymmetry of risk. 

Wars between two societies with a significant technological imbalance don't go well for the side with inferior technology. Anything that lowers that imbalance through studying the base could save lives

Secondly, I see an asymmetry of risk when it comes to keeping the Collector base. The risks of potential failure from keeping the base doesn't come close to known risk of total genocide at the hands of the Reapers."

Original thread: Why do people destroy the collector base? by Cra5yPineapple

Second thread: The Collector Base Argument Thread by Dean_The_Young

Where did the poll go? I was interested in seeing the results.

[chris025657]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Where did the poll go? I was interested in seeing the results.

A lot of people were complaining about the poll being identical to other polls and it only had like 7 votes, so I just got rid of it. I could put it back if more people request it though. 

Modifié par chris025657, 17 octobre 2010 - 02:25 .

[UpDownLeftRight]

Shandepared wrote...
Which has to do with fighting the Reapers, meaning it is on topic. In any case you're the one who came here spouting off about stuff that isn't relevant to the thread at all so you only have yourself to blame.

My self to blame?

Shandepared wrote...

Choices are meaningless without consequences, as is this entire discussion.

Oh wait... Nope, not myself to blame.

Shandepared wrote...
Life is indeed devoid of any objective meaning which also means that fighting the Reapers doesn't prove anything. With that in mind, why keep the Collector base?

I would not fight the Reapers/Old Machines to prove anything. I'm not a child looking for acknowledgement. Nor am I a coward so wouldn't fight them for the sake of surviving/fear of death. I would not fight them and claim my actions would be "logic". Logic would be inactivity. I fight them because I disagree with them. I'd rather give you, Shandepared, the choice of becoming a part of a Reaper mind instead of forcing it on you. I'd rather give you the ability to live your short little life the way you want to live it instead of the way someone else wants it.

chris025657 wrote...

The meaning of life isn't related to the Collector base decision. Please both just drop it and try to keep this on topic.

I will.

Modifié par UpDownLeftRight, 17 octobre 2010 - 09:36 .

[Inverness Moon]

 Stop being so depressing Shand, you're sinking the topic. 

[chris025657]

[Edit: The first rule about moderation is that you do not talk about moderation. On the forums. -- Pacifien]

Modifié par Pacifien, 17 octobre 2010 - 02:44 .

[Zan51]

Alessar wrote...

Am I the only person who feels that the collector base decision is more about Cerberus than the technology within the collector base?

Keep the base, good standing with Cerberus, you have their support behind you. Destroy the base, you seem to pretty much lose their backing.

I mean while the technology will be useful, will it be usable by the time the reapers arrive? Keeping or losing Cerberus support seems like a more direct option.

Perhaps this is true, and Bioware are actually asking us these 2 questions to see what to do with ME3.
1) Do you want to stay with Cerberus and their Pro Human dominance of the galaxy?
2) Do you want to split from Cerberus, and do you see the Galaxy as a place that should not be dominated by one species?

It could well be that if the major amount of players destroy thje Base, then Cerberus is dead meat in ME3.
If more choose keeping the Base, then Cerberus is still a strong force and has a large impact on Shepard and his/her actions.

It doesn't really need saying, but if this is the case, then from our game stats that Bioware is getting, they already know whether most of us prefer to destroy the base and cut loose from Cerberus, or the opposite. Actions do have severe consequences then, if they plot ME3 taking this outcome into their equations.

Modifié par Zan51, 17 octobre 2010 - 02:46 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

chris025657 wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Where did the poll go? I was interested in seeing the results.

A lot of people were complaining about the poll being identical to other polls and it only had like 7 votes, so I just got rid of it. I could put it back if more people request it though. 

I think you should, since this is now the official keep/scrap CB thread, i think the votes will eventually reach a high number, and tell you where the majority lies on the issue.

[PauseforEffect]

Have to admit, came very close to giving the base to the Illusive Man. A few things kept nagging though, mainly about the consequences that Cerberus brings about.

To start, their mindset about placing humanity first is inherently flawed. It's natural to want to ensure survival, but their methods are isolating potential allies. Cause too much trouble, become too much of a threat and the rest will rise up against you, e.g. Krogan Rebellions

Second, the results they bring in is a mixed blessing. They may be racing towards the success they want, but they're trampling people in the process. All that Shepard has witnessed working with them has often been the aftermath of terrible costly mistakes like waking up in Lazarus station where all the employees are being slaughtered by their own security, or recruiting the ultimate biotic that had murdered the people that achieved the goal. For an organization devoted to the advancement of the human race, there are a lot of humans getting killed in the process. While they might indeed succeed in utilizing the technology in the Collector base, it's hard not to wonder how many casualties will pave the way for humanity.

There is not much consolation in that Cerberus won't end up compromising the war, given that Shepard has had to clean up their mess time and time again. While one understands that people who support Cerberus have good intentions, it would be better if they had good actions. Gavin Archer tried to justify the deaths of his employees by saying if his work saves a million mothers from mourning the deaths of a million sons or daughters, what happened in Overlord will be justified.

But what of the mothers of the people who died working under him? Would they agree?

The point is that Cerberus is pushing too hard, too fast. They're trying to make an infant run before it's learned to crawl. Figuratively speaking.

Keeping the Collector base for Cerberus invited a cost too high. There are other options I believe that are open though we won't know it for now. The base could not be handed over to someone else, Cerberus would have gotten ahold of it faster than you could call them, assuming they'd have a handy IFF of their own and the resources matching it.

Whew! sorry, was sitting on that argument for some time now. thank you

[mosor]

All Your Bases Are Belong To Us.



Defeating the reapers.......for great justice!

[Phaedon]

Pacifien wrote...

I view keeping the base as a massive risk that pays off in dividends if it all goes well. It can also lead to disaster if it all goes badly. What do you get if it all goes well? Something like the Thannix Cannon or EDI. What do you get if it all goes wrong? You lose control of the base again.

So it depends on how much of a risk-taker your Shepard happens to be. Possible extinction of all space-faring races > destroying valuable intel. Possible indoctrination incident a la Saren > gaining valuable intel.

No matter which side of the fence you're on, you should always keep in mind the base is dangerous. Do you think Cerberus (or anyone, for that matter) has the ability to safeguard and react to unknown dangers? Go for it, keep the base. Do you think fortune favors the bold? Go for it, keep the base. Or perhaps you feel that no one has the ability to withstand the technology of the Reapers, that diving in to readily and greedily will unleash disaster? Blow the thing up. Perhaps you think only fools rush in? No base for you!

This pretty much.

[Arijharn]

I don't trust TIM's end game motives, I don't know what he'll intend to use the base technology for other than the somewhat nebulous claim that it'll help keep humanity humanity and able to protect it's own sovereign interests (I intended no pun there honestly). However, I do understand that no matter what TIM's end game motives to be, he would not be able to do so if everyone is extinct. Personally, I'm of the opinion that when our extinction comes it should come at our own hands rather than a sentient machine race.

The fear I have of TIM (passed on assumptions whatever they are) is dwarfed from the obvious and open fear that I get from the Reapers, so to me, it seems logical to prepare for that threat rather than hand wring on what could happen in the hands of TIM.

Because at the end of the day, what could TIM do against the Council species arrayed against him? 

[Spectre_907]

I do not trust the Illusive Man's intentions of adapting the technology of the Collector base for humans but we need any information and technology in it to fight against the Reapers. Our technology is too inferior and we have little understanding of the Reapers to stop them without anything from the base. The base stays.

Modifié par Spectre_907, 17 octobre 2010 - 09:40 .

[skcih-deraj]

The alliance has their share of mess ups. (Rouge V.I on the moon, the A.I. they built behind the councils back and one of the biggest on being Cerberus as their black ops division and not dealing with them when they suposedly went rouge.) But to be fair Cerberus has bigger mess ups. (But I wouldn't call what they achieved with Jack a failure)



Any way back on topic...I kept the base.



Rules go out the window when fighting the Reapers. (for me at least) And that kinda ends with giving the base to an organization like cerberus. To be honest I don't trust the Illusive man with it but then again I wouldn't trust the council or the alliance with it.



Would it be safer to blow it up...yes. But Cerberus won't be afraid to do what they need to with that base and there is a rather large fleet of dreadnought sized A.I. on the way so I think the potential risk of giving cerberus the base is worth it.

[Elyvern]

Logically there is no way to deny keeping the base, emotionally, I just want to punch TIM in the face. And since I know regardless of my choice, Bioware will have Shepard win even if he destroys the base, so I go ahead and destroy it. Meta-gaming is cheating, I know, but it's just a damn game...

[Asheer_Khan]

Shandepared wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

I don't trust TIM's end game motives, I don't know what he'll intend to use the base technology for other than the somewhat nebulous claim that it'll help keep humanity humanity and able to protect it's own sovereign interests...

Well that would logically entail superior military technology and perhaps things which support infrastructure. What is it exactly that you fear though? You must have some scenarios you are imagining.

I figure he'll give the Alliance Navy the firepower to discourage anybody from opposing them. Perhaps we'll also get the "allies" (controlled geth) to greatly expand our sphere of influence, acquiring more resources and living space for ourselves. It will be a glorious and prosperous future for humanity!

Did 1939 - 1945 time period says something to you?

That nightmare was started exactly from those reasons i bolded in your post...

I believe humans can take out Asari (by unleashing human version of genophage in form of project trapdoor) or Salarians and heck even Krogans because they in ccurrent state poses not to great military challenge but Turians might become for tim's dream of human hmpire what become Soviet Union for Hitler's dream of 1000 years reich.

[Urazz]

Elyvern wrote...

Logically there is no way to deny keeping the base, emotionally, I just want to punch TIM in the face. And since I know regardless of my choice, Bioware will have Shepard win even if he destroys the base, so I go ahead and destroy it. Meta-gaming is cheating, I know, but it's just a damn game...

Actually there is logical reason to not keep the base.  It's been mentioned that people just don't trust TiM/Cerberus to handle this technology.  If it was to give the base to the council, then that would be one thing, but it's to give the technology to a human supremist group and that may come to bite you back in the butt later on beyond the reapers.  Some people would rather just destroy the base instead of creating another problem.