504 réponses à ce sujet

[Elyvern]

Urazz wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

Logically there is no way to deny keeping the base, emotionally, I just want to punch TIM in the face. And since I know regardless of my choice, Bioware will have Shepard win even if he destroys the base, so I go ahead and destroy it. Meta-gaming is cheating, I know, but it's just a damn game...

Actually there is logical reason to not keep the base.  It's been mentioned that people just don't trust TiM/Cerberus to handle this technology.  If it was to give the base to the council, then that would be one thing, but it's to give the technology to a human supremist group and that may come to bite you back in the butt later on beyond the reapers.  Some people would rather just destroy the base instead of creating another problem.

Sorry, I'm a firm believer that destroying the base and then finding that you need it later is basically crying over spilt milk-- in short, shooting yourself in the foot. With the existing knowledge we're given, Cerberus cannot be a bigger threat than the reapers.

My decision has nothing to do with what my mind tells me rationally, because I know Bioware will not shaft me despite choosing to make a emotional decision about it. I'm determined to play the game for enjoyment and I don't enjoy the feeling I get giving the base to TIM.

[Christmas Ape]

Asheer_Khan wrote...
Did 1939 - 1945 time period says something to you?

That without the Treaty of Versailles and the Thule Society the anti-Cerberus coalition would have no argument?

That nightmare was started exactly from those reasons i bolded in your post...

An absurd oversimplification of the complexities of geopolitics in the wake of WW1.
We're more likely to pacify the Terminus Systems than to invade the Heirarchy anyway.
The rest is fear-mongering under the specter of a war no-one's suggesting.

[Inverness Moon]

PrimalEden wrote...

Keeping the Collector base for Cerberus invited a cost too high. There are other options I believe that are open though we won't know it for now.

This is one of the issues I have with the logic used by base-destroyers. They simply assume there will be some other options in the future but they don't know for sure, yet they're willing to risk the lives of everyone just to deny Cerberus that technology.

You can not be sure that some other solution will pop up down the road without metagaming, so it makes no sense for Shepard to destroy what could be their only chance to stop the reapers just because of Cerberus.

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Did 1939 - 1945 time period says something to you?

That nightmare was started exactly from those reasons i bolded in your post...

I believe humans can take out Asari (by unleashing human version of genophage in form of project trapdoor) or Salarians and heck even Krogans because they in ccurrent state poses not to great military challenge but Turians might become for tim's dream of human hmpire what become Soviet Union for Hitler's dream of 1000 years reich.

Maybe you didn't notice, but space is big. Humans could expand their territory and claim countless star systems in and surrounding the Local Cluster whenever they wanted and not step on anyone's toes. They would end up further and further from a Mass Relay of course, but it could still be done. Besides, if we defeat the reapers and master their technology, we could create our own mass relays.

[Teknor]

Shandepared wrote...

Indeed, that period made America (which humanity obviously represents in Mass Effect) into a super power.
 

Alliance is not governed by America. We don't even know America still exists.

[chris025657]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

I think you should, since this is now the official keep/scrap CB thread, i think the votes will eventually reach a high number, and tell you where the majority lies on the issue.

Alright, I put it back up here

[lovgreno]

Shandepared wrote...

I have yet to hear a rational argument for destroying the base. Does keeping the base entail risk? Yes, it does. However you are taking an even greater risk if you destroy it.

We know the base is dangerous, human genocide was what it was doing and it can again unless exploded.
We don't know if there will be anything usefull in there. To say that the only way to beat the reapers lies in the base is pure speculation.

[mosor]

Teknor wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Indeed, that period made America (which humanity obviously represents in Mass Effect) into a super power.
 

Alliance is not governed by America. We don't even know America still exists.

It exists as the North American Union. Anyway, it wasn't a literal analogy. The codex describes the systems alliance and humanity as "the sleeping giant" which is the term a Japanese Admiral supposedly described America as before Pearl Harbor. The game hints at future greatness for humanity, and one of those paths is human dominance of the galaxy, just like America's post war dominance of the world.

[Phaedon]

Teknor wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Indeed, that period made America (which humanity obviously represents in Mass Effect) into a super power.
 

Alliance is not governed by America. We don't even know America still exists.

It doesn't. It's USNA now. (USA+Mexico+Canada). Check the Cerberus Daily News.

Shandepared wrote...

I have yet to hear a rational argument for destroying the base. Does keeping the base entail risk? Yes, it does. However you are taking an even greater risk if you destroy it.

Not necessarily. What do you think that the CB has that makes it that valuable ?

Modifié par Phaedon, 17 octobre 2010 - 03:20 .

[Zulu_DFA]

lovgreno wrote...
We know the base is dangerous,

How?

lovgreno wrote...
human genocide was what it was doing

The base did not genocide Humans. The Collectors did.

The Collectors get wiped out without destroying the Base.

lovgreno wrote...
and it can again unless exploded.

Will TIM authorize Human experimentation? Yes, he will.
Will TIM authorize Human genocide? No, he won't.

lovgreno wrote...
We don't know if there will be anything usefull in there.

Yes, we know. There are thermal clips all over the place, if nothing else.

Plus, now it can be a tourist attraction.

lovgreno wrote...
To say that the only way to beat the reapers lies in the base is pure speculation.

To say the opposite is meta-gaming.

Phaedon wrote...
What do you think that the CB has that makes it that valuable ?

It is an enemy HQ. What do you do with the enemy HQ, when you capture it? Right, you check it for booby-traps, then you look for the maps, papers, etc.

[Inverness Moon]

Phaedon wrote...

Not necessarily. What do you think that the CB has that makes it that valuable ?

We don't know, that is why you have to keep it to find out.

But, considering it can build reapers, I think most of us have a pretty good idea.

Edit: Let's not forget that the collectors have a history of trading advanced technology. Where do you think all that comes from?

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 17 octobre 2010 - 03:50 .

[mosor]

Phaedon wrote...

Not necessarily. What do you think that the CB has that makes it that valuable ?

Same reason why you think the collector base is dangerous or if TIM having it would make him too powerful. If there is nothing of value there, then there is nothing to worry about.  Dangerous and valuelessness are oxymorons. Dangerous things always have value, if anything to at least study it to see what makes it so dangerous and protect ourselves in the future. Regardless, I'd rather find out if there is nothing of value there rather than assume that to be the case.

Modifié par mosor, 17 octobre 2010 - 03:55 .

[Xilizhra]

Dangerous and valuelessness are oxymorons.

Not necessarily. Something could be worthless against the Reapers but lethal to the rest of the galaxy.

[Ieldra]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
What do you think that the CB has that makes it that valuable ?

It is an enemy HQ. What do you do with the enemy HQ, when you capture it? Right, you check it for booby-traps, then you look for the maps, papers, etc.

Yep. That's about the most succinct way to put it.

[PauseforEffect]

Inverness Moon wrote...

PrimalEden wrote...

Keeping the Collector base for Cerberus invited a cost too high. There are other options I believe that are open though we won't know it for now.

This is one of the issues I have with the logic used by base-destroyers. They simply assume there will be some other options in the future but they don't know for sure, yet they're willing to risk the lives of everyone just to deny Cerberus that technology.

You can not be sure that some other solution will pop up down the road without metagaming, so it makes no sense for Shepard to destroy what could be their only chance to stop the reapers just because of Cerberus.

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Did 1939 - 1945 time period says something to you?

That nightmare was started exactly from those reasons i bolded in your post...

I believe humans can take out Asari (by unleashing human version of genophage in form of project trapdoor) or Salarians and heck even Krogans because they in ccurrent state poses not to great military challenge but Turians might become for tim's dream of human hmpire what become Soviet Union for Hitler's dream of 1000 years reich.

Maybe you didn't notice, but space is big. Humans could expand their territory and claim countless star systems in and surrounding the Local Cluster whenever they wanted and not step on anyone's toes. They would end up further and further from a Mass Relay of course, but it could still be done. Besides, if we defeat the reapers and master their technology, we could create our own mass relays.

It is not risking other people's lives if you believe the organization is going to cost people their lives. Cerberus is not the only group developing effective weapons. The Thannix Cannon that people laud as reason to keep Collector tech was originally designed by Turians (even the design of the Normandy was influenced by them)
It is also not unreasonable to find another way to fight the Reapers. Legion itself stated that Geth believe in creating their own future thus their refusal of Nazara's offer.
Assuming another solution will be found is no worse than assuming the Collector base is the only solution. Neither are proven; there is just as high a chance that the Collector base will backfire as it will help

[Dean_the_Young]

Eden, the Thannix wasn't designed by Turians. It was copied from Sovereign by the Turians. There was no ingenuity except in how to adapt the technology stolen wholesale.

Legion is also perfectly willing to use the Heretic's virus to rewrite the heretics, to use human technology to get the Widow, and to use non-geth technology and means (ie, Commander Shepard entirely) to create that Geth future. Not even Legion lives by Legion's stated philosophy, and you aren't Legion in the first place.

Yes, assuming a complete solution exists elsewhere else is worse than assuming a partial solution lies within reach... when, in fact, a partial solution does lie in reach. One in the hand worth two in the bush, and all that.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 17 octobre 2010 - 04:34 .

[SimonTheFrog]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

lovgreno wrote...
We know the base is dangerous,

How?

lovgreno wrote...
human genocide was what it was doing

The base did not genocide Humans. The Collectors did.

The Collectors get wiped out without destroying the Base.

lovgreno wrote...
and it can again unless exploded.

Will TIM authorize Human experimentation? Yes, he will.
Will TIM authorize Human genocide? No, he won't.

lovgreno wrote...
We don't know if there will be anything usefull in there.

Yes, we know. There are thermal clips all over the place, if nothing else.

Plus, now it can be a tourist attraction.

lovgreno wrote...
To say that the only way to beat the reapers lies in the base is pure speculation.

To say the opposite is meta-gaming.

Phaedon wrote...
What do you think that the CB has that makes it that valuable ?

It is an enemy HQ. What do you do with the enemy HQ, when you capture it? Right, you check it for booby-traps, then you look for the maps, papers, etc.

Awesome post!  I love the idea to recreate the base into a thermal-clip dispender and tourist attraction!

That last part, about capturing an enemy HQ is what happens if one human troops fights another. But the reapers are a strange ilk. We have very little information about what's up with them. Maybe liquifying humans is a good thing in the greater picture? You know, liquify a few to save all the others (maybe even in another galaxy or dimension or whatnot)? 
I mean, they surely are put into the game as an enemy, but they are also made very enigmatic... 

What i'm trying to say is that we are really moving on very shallow ice here with any decent discussion. You don't know what a booby trap is if you don't understand the purpose of any of what you find. Think of a pre-historical soldier stumbling into the pentagon (and that is still basically one tribe versus another of the same species. Nothing remotely comparable to human-reaper relations). How the heck would he be able to get access to the real important data (even if he by accident turned on one of the computers there). 

The real problem is, that BioWare DOES pit the pentagon and its troops against pre-historical tribes and puts us in the shoes of one of pre-historical heroes. So, spear in one hand, a blank of carved and painted wood in the other we face a platoon of abrams facing us and tomahawks on their way too. 

And funnily enough the writers will come up with a likely story how we still triumph. 

And in all this, you want to discuss whether it would be clever for the pre-historical soldiers to check out the abrams-factory? 
I mean sure, we can talk about whatever we want... but its hilariously silly from a wider perspective.

[Inverness Moon]

PrimalEden wrote...

It is not risking other people's lives if you believe the organization is going to cost people their lives.

Of course you are risking lives, don't fool yourself into believing otherwise. If you find out later that the base could have contained the only thing that would have saved you from the reapers you will be solely responsible for the death of everyone in the galaxy.

No matter what Cerberus does its not going to result in more deaths than the success of the reapers.

PrimalEden wrote...

Cerberus is not the only group developing effective weapons. The Thannix Cannon that people laud as reason to keep Collector tech was originally designed by Turians (even the design of the Normandy was influenced by them)

The turians did not design the Thannix cannon, they adapted the design from Sovereign.

PrimalEden wrote...

It is also not unreasonable to find another way to fight the Reapers. Legion itself stated that Geth believe in creating their own future thus their refusal of Nazara's offer.
Assuming another solution will be found is no worse than assuming the Collector base is the only solution. Neither are proven; there is just as high a chance that the Collector base will backfire as it will help

You're misrepresenting the stance of the people who keep the base. People who keep the base don't assume it is the only solution, they assume that if they blow it they might be destroying the only solution. There is a clear difference.

Base-destroyers do so because they assume that the base isn't the only way to beat the reapers. Base-savers don't make any assumptions and save the base so they can try and find out if it is a solution or not. Cerberus does not even factor into it.

What Legion says about the geth creating their own future does not apply in this instance. You seem to forget that Legion himself said that the base is simply data, destroying it won't bring back the people who died, but saving it may save others. He is absolutely correct.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 17 octobre 2010 - 04:58 .

[Iakus]

Dave of Canada wrote...
We don't see their successes because TIM and the Cerberus network wouldn't tell Shepard "Come to X planet, we've had a success!". The Alliance and such have a lot of screw ups too.

+ the majority of the screw ups you go clean up is because their initial project worked TOO well. For example, Overlord proved that Geth could be controlled.

While Cerberus has had successes, we really don't know what their success/failure ratio is.  We do know that the failures they have had were...quite spectacular...There's only a single Alliance mess-up I can recall that even compares to what seems to happen to Cerbnerus on a semiregular basis.

The idea that Cerberus experiments went haywire because they went "too well" only reinforces my position here.  Experimenting too well with biotics in children, geth, or rachni gets a bunch of people killed.  What happens if an experiment goes "too well" with a base full of Reaper technology?

As I said, I simply can't trust TIM or Cerberus to properly respect Reapers or the dangers of their technology.  There are few people in the ME universe I would trust with it.

2) This sorta ties in to #1:  potential booby traps.  I'm not talking about just self-destruct mechanisms or dormant husks.  I mean indoctrination gizmos.

Possible but I doubt heavily that these devices are active, the Collectors didn't require indocrination and nobody was supposed to reach the base. The indoctrination devices are possibly inactive and used for their reaper / husk factory line.

Even if such devices were active, we would've probably have seen some of it effecting the captured crew / colonists.

True nobody is supposed to reach the base.  But these are immortal beings who have had tens of millions of years to refine their strategies.  I'd have a hard time believing that the Reapers wouldn't have contingency plans in case the base did get overrun somehow.

Of course, I also expected the Reapers to have a "Plan B" for the Citadel Relay, so maybe there was nothing to worry about.  Still, I would say that rescued crew members being at least partially indocrinated would make for an interesting consequence come ME 3, wouldn't you say?

I'm glad you didn't suggest TIM would slaughter the aliens immediately before the Reapers arrive, so here's a [non-sarcastic] cookie.

Cerberus is too small of a group to deal any lasting damage, a lot smaller if you consider what happened in the novel (though that's metagaming). The threat that a "rogue" Cerberus presents is a lot less than t

Oh don't get me wrong, if TIM could find a way to smoothiify a few million turians or asari into Cerbereapers to fight for humanity, he'd do it.  I just don't see Cerbeus managing to pull something like that off (yet).  What I could see is Cerberus keeping the technology for themselves, maybe sharing just enough to ensure the Reapers are stopped.   Then the war ending with Cerberus as the biggest dogs on the block, ready to take over the Alliance and breaking out the smoothy machines for anyone who gets in their way.  Admittedly, this is "worst case scenerio"

Two parter:

The Reapers have drawn a line that says "This is how a species should evolve.", humans and such have crossed that line already and it assisted in the destruction of the Collectors. Without advanced Reaper tech, we wouldn't have the Thannix Cannon or EDI.

This is true.  I would point out, though that these were developed using the thoroughly trashed remains of Sovereign.  Not intact technology.

They never expected anybody to go further than maybe Mass Relay travel, it's why the Protheans (when they created their own Mass Relay) were capable of screwing their next cycle and how the current cycle was capable of stopping them twice. Further forbidden technology should advance our weapons and defenses years ahead of it's time, far too advanced for the Reapers to go "wut".

I'd agrue that the Protheans screwed up the Reapers' plans because their Conduit project was a secret.  What few records there were got destroyed in the opening shots of the invasion.  If the Reapers knew of Ilos, it would have been attacked and the cycles would have continued unabated.

Engineering our own weapon without Reaper tech is probably impossible due to how much Reaper tech is involved with current technology. What seperates Reaper and "Human" tech is a very fine line and anything somebody could think of was probably already done or requires too much of the Reaper tech to have any noticeable difference.

You may be right that at this point there's not much that can be done about developing completely new technologies.  But meeting the Reapers strength-for-strength is a losing proposition.  It might slow them down, delay the inevitable, but the Reapers already know how the technology works, its strengths, limitations, and even how to manipulate it to their advantage.  Something more is needed.  Something the Reapers can't anticipate, even in their own "worst case scenerios"

Let's imagine for a second we don't develop any weapons against the Reapers with the Collector Base. What else could we find?

Research into indoctrination. Prevention, maybe curing.
The ability to make Seeker Swarms.
Research into constructing a Reaper, the weakness of it's weapons and shielding.

Indoctrination prevention and curing is a good point.  But not enough of a point to make me take the risk of leaving the base intact.  As far as I'm concerned, it's less dangerous to simply study the debris. It's worked so far.

We already have protection against seeker swarms, thanks to Mordin.  And I really don't want Cerberus learning how to make their own Seekers

Reaper weaknesses is another good point.  But we already have pieces of Sovereign.  Enough to reverse engineer the Thannix and to make EDI.  Maybe more could be gained from the base.  Maybe more than we could get from the wreckage of the base and the Reaper larva.  But I'd say it's a huge risk to take on a "maybe"

Modifié par iakus, 17 octobre 2010 - 05:50 .

[Phaedon]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
It is an enemy HQ. What do you do with the enemy HQ, when you capture it? Right, you check it for booby-traps, then you look for the maps, papers, etc.

Heh, there will obviously be no maps or papers in the 2180s, but I get what you mean. Data, info. Well personally, I don't think that they are worth the risk. Even if it is, you have to consider that Collectors were just mindless drones that could barely do calculus. It was Harbinger who controlled them and gave them orders, why would he leave data for them ? How would they use it, or let alone read it ?

Inverness Moon wrote...
We don't know, that is why you have to keep it to find out.

But, considering it can build reapers, I think most of us have a pretty good idea.

Edit: Let's not forget that the collectors have a history of trading advanced technology. Where do you think all that comes from?

Well I think that we both agree that the base won't start producing Reapers. I do expect for advanced technology to be found (as you point out in your edit), but I don't think that it's worth the risk. For example, a simple mass accelerator cannon wouldn't do anything against the Reapers, but it would be catastrophic at TIM's hands.

mosor wrote...
Same reason why you think the collector base is dangerous or if TIM having it would make him too powerful. If there is nothing of value there, then there is nothing to worry about. Dangerous and valuelessness are oxymorons. Dangerous things always have value, if anything to at least study it to see what makes it so dangerous and protect ourselves in the future. Regardless, I'd rather find out if there is nothing of value there rather than assume that to be the case.

As Xilizhra points out, it's one thing to be dangerous against a simple race and another to be considered dangerous against the Reapers. Note, however, that I never dismissed the CB salvaged tech as valueless. On the contrary, I think that it will be of some value, but it's just too risky.

Modifié par Phaedon, 17 octobre 2010 - 06:01 .

[Dean_the_Young]

iakus wrote...


While Cerberus has had successes, we really don't know what their success/failure ratio is.  We do know that the failures they have had were...quite spectacular...There's only a single Alliance mess-up I can recall that even compares to what seems to happen to Cerbnerus on a semiregular basis.

Akuze? Teltin? Nuke-probes? 

Come to that, what does happen to Cerberus on a 'semiregular basis', given your own admission of no objective success/failure ratio? Not even rounding errors of people dying? Shepard crashing in and making an explosive mess of things?

The idea that Cerberus experiments went haywire because they went "too well" only reinforces my position here.  Experimenting too well with biotics in children, geth, or rachni gets a bunch of people killed. 

'A bunch' is relative. Overlord is the only Cerberus project we've seen which had truly galactic implications, and that was hardly an un-justified branch of research in general, and certainly wasn't a catastrophic mess until Archer went behind TIM's back to act fast.

Will you ban every form of research on the basis that someone might cut corners?

What happens if an experiment goes "too well" with a base full of Reaper technology?

Nothing that logically necessitates the end of the galaxy or innate failure to be able to face the Reapers.

True nobody is supposed to reach the base.  But these are immortal beings who have had tens of millions of years to refine their strategies.  I'd have a hard time believing that the Reapers wouldn't have contingency plans in case the base did get overrun somehow.

Then why didn't they have more than one ship, or even actual internal base defenses to prevent the base from being overrun?

Worrying about how the Collectors put a poison pill in the base to negate capture is putting the cart before the horse: they didn't want Shepard to capture the base in the first place, and the logical step is always going to be to prevent any gains at all before trying to negate some gains in a manner that can be discovered, negated, and then full gains occur regardless of trap or not.

Oh don't get me wrong, if TIM could find a way to smoothiify a few million turians or asari into Cerbereapers to fight for humanity, he'd do it.  I just don't see Cerbeus managing to pull something like that off (yet).  What I could see is Cerberus keeping the technology for themselves, maybe sharing just enough to ensure the Reapers are stopped.   Then the war ending with Cerberus as the biggest dogs on the block, ready to take over the Alliance and breaking out the smoothy machines for anyone who gets in their way.  Admittedly, this is "worst case scenerio"

Cerberus, is going to put aliens in the smoothie machine, when the Reapers themselves disqualified the aliens as being good for being put in the smoothie machine?

And why would they want to either? Reaper tech doesn't need to be made out of Reaper goo, and the costs and fallout of kidnapping enough aliens to matter, even if Cerberus somehow did manage to outweigh all the survivors (including the Alliance) is exceeded... how?

'Worst case' needs more than 'worst possible': it needs reason.

This is true.  I would point out, though that these were developed using the thoroughly trashed remains of Sovereign.  Not intact technology.

The derilect Reaper wasn't intact either, or else it wouldn't be, you know, derilect. And having a massive hole in it.

You may be right that at this point there's not much that can be done about developing completely new technologies.  But meeting the Reapers strength-for-strength is a losing proposition.  It might slow them down, delay the inevitable, but the Reapers already know how the technology works, its strengths, limitations, and even how to manipulate it to their advantage.  Something more is needed.  Something the Reapers can't anticipate, even in their own "worst case scenerios"

Short of magical deus ex machina, attrition is how the war will be won. It's the point of gathering allies. 'Meeting them strength-for-strength' limits their advantages in attrition, which works for us.

We already have protection against seeker swarms, thanks to Mordin.  And I really don't want Cerberus learning how to make their own Seekers

Even if seekers could be adapted to stop armies of indoctrinated slaves?

Protection from swarms isn't the only use for seeker technology. Imagine seeker swarms that could be targetted against, say, Krogan indoctrinated by the Reapers. Wouldn't that have worth?

[chris025657]

Phaedon wrote...

Heh, there will obviously be no maps or papers in the 2180s, but I get what you mean. Data, info. Well personally, I don't think that they are worth the risk. Even if it is, you have to consider that Collectors were just mindless drones that could barely do calculus. It was Harbinger who controlled them and gave them orders, why would he leave data for them ? How would they use it, or let alone read it ?

Well, there is more than just potential data on Reapers in the Collector base: it has a Reaper in progress and the machinery and technology needed to build one. That alone could prove valuable to understanding more about Reapers. And with that understanding, you could look for and exploit weaknesses and potentially advance our 
own technology for example.

There are certainly risks to studying it, but I see it like this:

Choice A: Destroy the base
Doing this eliminates the potential risks of keeping the base (such as a project failure or TIM using in counterproductive ways), but it also eliminates any potential technological gains to hedge against the risk of total genocide at the hands of the Reapers

Choice B: Keep the base
Now there is the risks associated with keeping the base, but the potential to mitigate the risk from the Reapers. 

I've just always viewed keeping the base as less risky and the Reapers as a significantly bigger threat than potential negative consequences of keeping the base. 

[Zulu_DFA]

I, for one, am freaking curious as to why they needed the Human goo to build a Reaper, and why they made it look like a three-eyed terminator. And I will let no fear compromise my curiosity.

[Iakus]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

Akuze? Teltin? Nuke-probes? 

Come to that, what does happen to Cerberus on a 'semiregular basis', given your own admission of no objective success/failure ratio? Not even rounding errors of people dying? Shepard crashing in and making an explosive mess of things? [/quote]

Akuze and Teltin were Cerberus projects.  Though admittedly they were Alliance at the time.  I somehow doubt they were sanctioned actions.

Nuke-probes were during a time of war, and were more of an embarassment than anything else.

What happens to Cerberus?  Well:

UNC: Missing Marines

UNC: Dead Scientists   (fallout from their actions, rather than actual experiment)

UNC: Colony of the Dead

UNC: Listening Post Theta

UNC: Depot Sigma-23

In addition to Project Overlord.  I'm probably missing a few.

Miranda can argue that these were "rogue" operations, or "mistakes" til she's blue in the face.  But TIM maintains personal oversight.  These were on his head.  Without kniwledge of exoeriments gone right to balance the ones gone wrong, and I'm left with a judgement call.  Gotta assume the worst here.

[quote]
A bunch' is relative. Overlord is the only Cerberus project we've seen which had truly galactic implications, and that was hardly an un-justified branch of research in general, and certainly wasn't a catastrophic mess until Archer went behind TIM's back to act fast.

Will you ban every form of research on the basis that someone might cut corners?[/quote]

Ban, not necessarilly.  But I'd make sure that people who cut corners aren't in charge of extremely dangerous technology.  Like I said, I'd be more anemable towards leaving the base in the care of someone who could respect the power and danger it represents.  Like Anderson or Liara.  Even members of my squad.  But the choice was TIM or nobody.  Given those options, I go with Nobody.

And yes, there are degrees of how dangerous the technology they're playing with is.  geth are more dangerous than rachni (without a queen, at least) Reaper tech is kind on the top of the list of the "this can kill us all" pile.  And TIM has proven himself incapable of either overseeing projects, hiring decent management, implementing proper safety protocols, or setting reasonable timelines for goals.  Or all of the above. 

I'd trust the Mythbusters with the Collector Base over TIM.

[quote]Nothing that logically necessitates the end of the galaxy or innate failure to be able to face the Reapers.[/quote]

You're willing to bet the fate of the galaxy on that.  I can respect that.  But I can't make the same bet.

[quote]
Then why didn't they have more than one ship, or even actual internal base defenses to prevent the base from being overrun?

Worrying about how the Collectors put a poison pill in the base to negate capture is putting the cart before the horse: they didn't want Shepard to capture the base in the first place, and the logical step is always going to be to prevent any gains at all before trying to negate some gains in a manner that can be discovered, negated, and then full gains occur regardless of trap or not.[/quote]

Actually, the lack of proper base defenses does bother me a bit.  But that's for another thread.  At any rate, I am unwilling to take the risk that Shepard got lucky/Reapers got complacent, the place isn't booby-trapped, there are no indoctination devices lying around, or Harbringer's remote-control ability is limited to just the Collectors. ::Harbringer does the "Home Alone" scream::

[quote]
Cerberus, is going to put aliens in the smoothie machine, when the Reapers themselves disqualified the aliens as being good for being put in the smoothie machine?[/quote]

::shrug::  Cerberus has different goals and standards than the Reapers. 

[quote]
And why would they want to either? Reaper tech doesn't need to be made out of Reaper goo, and the costs and fallout of kidnapping enough aliens to matter, even if Cerberus somehow did manage to outweigh all the survivors (including the Alliance) is exceeded... how?[/quote]

First, we don't even know for sure what the "Reaper goo" is for, exactly.  So we don't know what requires it and what doesn't.  Reapers, we know, do.

Second:  Why?  Reaper fleet.  Even a substandard one.  Under Cerberus control.  When no one else has the strength to take them on?  Or even Reaper/human hybrid tech. 

[quote]
'Worst case' needs more than 'worst possible': it needs reason.[/quote]

Human advancement, whatever it takes.  Seeing what Cerberus has done in the past, reading the dossiers in SB base.  Yeah, I think they'd do it if they thought they could get away with it.


[quote]
This is true.  I would point out, though that these were developed using the thoroughly trashed remains of Sovereign.  Not intact technology.[/quote]The derilect Reaper wasn't intact either, or else it wouldn't be, you know, derilect. And having a massive hole in it.[/quote]

The Derelict Reaper wasn't as "derelict" as they thought.  (Maybe I should add that to my list of "Cerberus Experiments Gone Wild" list... ) At any rate, Sovereign was blown to itty-bitty pieces (relatively speakling).  If Sovereign remained a threat at that point, then the "Council is indoctrinated" theory suddenly becomes a lot more plausible.  The Derelict Reaper, I'd argue was "comatose" yet still incredibly dangerous.

[quote]
Short of magical deus ex machina, attrition is how the war will be won. It's the point of gathering allies. 'Meeting them strength-for-strength' limits their advantages in attrition, which works for us.[/quote]

I'd say more likely it'll slow them down until a true knockout punch can be found. 


[quote]Even if seekers could be adapted to stop armies of indoctrinated slaves?

Perhaps, yes.  But I'd say Mordin (or others) already have what they need to develop it.  I mean, Mordin already has Seeker samples.  He used them to create a defense.  They've got all the leftover stuff from Horizon (where the Collectors had to leave in a hurry)  Plus the wreckage of the cruiser.  Maybe there's more data to be found at the base.  But I doubt it.  [/quote]

Modifié par iakus, 17 octobre 2010 - 07:55 .