504 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I, for one, am freaking curious as to why they needed the Human goo to build a Reaper, and why they made it look like a three-eyed terminator. And I will let no fear compromise my curiosity.

Best arguement I've seen yet for keeping the base

[mosor]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dangerous and valuelessness are oxymorons.

Not necessarily. Something could be worthless against the Reapers but lethal to the rest of the galaxy.

If something is lethal to the rest of the galaxy, then it's important to understand how it's lethal and ways to counteract it. That will always have value regardless. Blowing them up now, and just waiting for the reapers to use em when they come is just plain silly.

[NYG1991]

Alessar wrote...

Am I the only person who feels that the collector base decision is more about Cerberus than the technology within the collector base?

Keep the base, good standing with Cerberus, you have their support behind you. Destroy the base, you seem to pretty much lose their backing.

I mean while the technology will be useful, will it be usable by the time the reapers arrive? Keeping or losing Cerberus support seems like a more direct option.

that makes sense.  it could be like the council living or the rachni. people who destroy the base lose an ally in the fight against reapers. it works out for people who let the previous council die. i  don't think its going to be a make or break call for the overall campaign though.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]iakus wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

Akuze? Teltin? Nuke-probes? 

Come to that, what does happen to Cerberus on a 'semiregular basis', given your own admission of no objective success/failure ratio? Not even rounding errors of people dying? Shepard crashing in and making an explosive mess of things? [/quote]

Akuze and Teltin were Cerberus projects.  Though admittedly they were Alliance at the time.  I somehow doubt they were sanctioned actions.[/quote]Why?

The Alliance sanctioned Cerberus to do these sort of things in the first place.

[quote]
What happens to Cerberus?  Well:

UNC: Missing Marines

UNC: Dead Scientists   (fallout from their actions, rather than actual experiment)

UNC: Colony of the Dead

UNC: Listening Post Theta

UNC: Depot Sigma-23

In addition to Project Overlord.  I'm probably missing a few.[/quote]That's not a list of project failures. That's a list of side missions involving Cerberus, and not even of different projects.

Missing Marines/Dead Scientist are part of the Akuze project, and not only is that hardly a disaster we have no grounds to say it didn't succede in its goals. A limited crime, not an example of incompetence.

There is dispute of whether Cerberus caused the Colony of the Dead in the first place: not only was it a pretty much negligable loss in the scale of things, are connection to Cerberus is that they got samples (husks) out. We can't say that project was a disaster, out of control, or a failure.

What you have left is the Rachni (one project) and Overlord (another). The Rachni failed, but not due to incompetence on Cerberus part. The fallout was limited, and not of galactic threat. Overlord was, but it not only was a legitimate branch of inquriery, but it didn't fail due to organization incompetence either. It's crash was due to one man's going against procedures.

[quote]
Miranda can argue that these were "rogue" operations, or "mistakes" til she's blue in the face.  But TIM maintains personal oversight.  These were on his head.  Without kniwledge of exoeriments gone right to balance the ones gone wrong, and I'm left with a judgement call.  Gotta assume the worst here.[/quote]Miranda only calls Teltin a rogue cell, because that's about it. The rest she identifies as part of Cerberus's military wing, which is not the end-all-is-all of the organization.

Without a frame of reference, you can not make a valid conclusion against Cerberus on grounds of being inherently and continually incompetent... especially given how only one failure listed threatened serious consequences to the galaxy, and that one was undeniably against Cerberus protocols.

[quote]
And yes, there are degrees of how dangerous the technology they're playing with is.  geth are more dangerous than rachni (without a queen, at least) Reaper tech is kind on the top of the list of the "this can kill us all" pile.  And TIM has proven himself incapable of either overseeing projects, hiring decent management, implementing proper safety protocols, or setting reasonable timelines for goals.  Or all of the above. [/quote]This is erroneous overestimation. Reaper technology alone is not 'kill us all' any more than gunpowder or e-zero is. It is something that we don't know, not magic, and the only way to mitigate it is to understand it.

Reaper tech will be studied. It will be studied as fast as possible, as much as possible, with as few holds barred as possible... when the Reapers come. There will not be measured, scientific, safe deliberation then.

You aren't striking a blow against unsafe science. All you are doing is putting it off until the Reapers are already here, and the consequences are immediate at the worst time possible.

[quote]
You're willing to bet the fate of the galaxy on that.  I can respect that.  But I can't make the same bet.[/quote]A bet would require a foundation of serious risk being possible.

Even Grayson, controlled by Reaper tech, made a very, very poor threat to galactic security. And by poor, I mean 'not really.'


[quote]
::shrug::  Cerberus has different goals and standards than the Reapers.  [/quote]The Reaper standards, in part, seemed to be 'possible'.


[quote]
First, we don't even know for sure what the "Reaper goo" is for, exactly.  So we don't know what requires it and what doesn't.  Reapers, we know, do.[/quote]It makes Reapers.

Reaper technology does not require Reapers: Thannix proves this. Other examples of Reaper technology almost certainly didn't require liquification, ie Mass Relays (replicated by the Protheans), the Citadel, and Dragon's Teeth.

[quote]
Second:  Why?  Reaper fleet.  Even a substandard one.  Under Cerberus control.  When no one else has the strength to take them on?  Or even Reaper/human hybrid tech.  [/quote]Reapers are white elephants. You'd get more bang for less buck by mass producing AI/VI controlled ships fitted with Reaper-technology than you would by actually

[quote]
Human advancement, whatever it takes.  Seeing what Cerberus has done in the past, reading the dossiers in SB base.  Yeah, I think they'd do it if they thought they could get away with it.[/quote]They'd take a route to dominance that would cost more with more resistance for no appreciable difference and much higher costs to humanity?

They are ruthless, not stupid. It's like the saying 'at all costs': just because you are willing to do something at all costs does not mean you go out of your way to rack up a bill.



[quote]
[quote]Even if seekers could be adapted to stop armies of indoctrinated slaves?

Perhaps, yes.  But I'd say Mordin (or others) already have what they need to develop it.  I mean, Mordin already has Seeker samples.  He used them to create a defense.  They've got all the leftover stuff from Horizon (where the Collectors had to leave in a hurry)  Plus the wreckage of the cruiser.  Maybe there's more data to be found at the base.  But I doubt it.  [/quote][/quote]The base is where the swarms were created, and made to be able to target humans. Why wouldn't there be data on the swarms on the base?

[Pacifien]

iakus wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
I, for one, am freaking curious as to why they needed the Human goo to build a Reaper, and why they made it look like a three-eyed terminator. And I will let no fear compromise my curiosity.

Best arguement I've seen yet for keeping the base

You know, I'm sold, too. I think I'll keep the base. On the playthroughs where I keep the base.

[TMA LIVE]

Pacifien wrote...

iakus wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
I, for one, am freaking curious as to why they needed the Human goo to build a Reaper, and why they made it look like a three-eyed terminator. And I will let no fear compromise my curiosity.

Best arguement I've seen yet for keeping the base

You know, I'm sold, too. I think I'll keep the base. On the playthroughs where I keep the base.

I actually agree with that. That sounds legit. Though I think I'll just wait for someone to post the results on Youtube.

[Pacifien]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
*snip*
Even Grayson, controlled by Reaper tech, made a very, very poor threat to galactic security. And by poor, I mean 'not really.'

I don't think the Reapers were using Grayson to threaten galactic security so much as he was an unexpected opportunity. Doesn't have anything to do with the collector base... unless you consider the fact that the Reapers jump at unexpected opportunities with those who play with their toys.

[TMA LIVE]

Pacifien wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
*snip*
Even Grayson, controlled by Reaper tech, made a very, very poor threat to galactic security. And by poor, I mean 'not really.'

I don't think the Reapers were using Grayson to threaten galactic security so much as he was an unexpected opportunity. Doesn't have anything to do with the collector base... unless you consider the fact that the Reapers jump at unexpected opportunities with those who play with their toys.

Well, TIM claims he got the tech from the Collectors (supposedly from the base, or it's remains). TIM says they were trying to replicate how the Collectors turned people into husks.

[watermeloncat615]

Pacifien wrote...

iakus wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
I, for one, am freaking curious as to why they needed the Human goo to build a Reaper, and why they made it look like a three-eyed terminator. And I will let no fear compromise my curiosity.

Best arguement I've seen yet for keeping the base

You know, I'm sold, too. I think I'll keep the base. On the playthroughs where I keep the base.

hah! i laugh at that. Ever since i have read Mass effect: redemtion, i REFUSE to keep the base, i allways had a soft spot for grayson then he got turned into a Reaper that soft spot turned raw, then Kai Leng killed him and i got so PEEVED. i know his was being tortured by Kai Leng had no right to kill him. end of dsscussion.

[Dean_the_Young]

Pacifien wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
*snip*
Even Grayson, controlled by Reaper tech, made a very, very poor threat to galactic security. And by poor, I mean 'not really.'

I don't think the Reapers were using Grayson to threaten galactic security so much as he was an unexpected opportunity. Doesn't have anything to do with the collector base... unless you consider the fact that the Reapers jump at unexpected opportunities with those who play with their toys.

Grayson was made from Reaper tech salvaged from the Collector Base (destroyed or intact).

Grayson is about as capable of a threat as a worst-case scenario from studying the base can be. Grayson is that worse-case 'the base poses an indoctrination risk' scenario: far more so than even actual conventional indoctrination, Grayson is indoctrinated, incredibly capable and lethal, under direct control of the Reapers, and with full access to intelligence and planning abilities provided by no less than the Reapers themselves.

In short, everything every other form of indoctrination can not provide.

And how much does Grayson do to undermine galactic affairs not already done by the Collectors? What deep, dark secrets does he uncover to forward to the Reapers that can undermine galactic defense? Secrets even the Reapers want, enough to spend their agent rather than send him into the untrackable Terminus systems?

Data on human biotics, a field that the Reapers have infinitely more experience and knowledge in over their countless cycles. A select human skill set that can't even tear through mass-producable kinetic barriers of our technology level. A skill that no one, with any sort of serious, can claim as the super-weapon against the Reapers.

And what does it take to bring down this great, ominous threat of Reaper technology? A shotgun blast. A blast that would have been implied earlier had a certain N7 obeyed the Illusive Man's own instructions and finished off Grayson rather than save him (the Man).


So let's review what that horrible, worst case scenario of the all-mighty terrible Reaper-tech-go-wild-under-reaper-control experiment amounted to: a couple dozen people died (likely more from the unrelated Turian attack than Grayson), some data from the Alliance's ascension project (the Alliance being a biotic third-rate power), and ended by the application of a shotgun.

The survival of the galaxy was in more risk from Anderson's actions (attacking the one force in the galaxy preparing for the Reapers) than by the actual Reapers themselves!

[Dave of Canada]

watermeloncat615 wrote...

hah! i laugh at that. Ever since i have read Mass effect: redemtion, i REFUSE to keep the base, i allways had a soft spot for grayson then he got turned into a Reaper that soft spot turned raw, then Kai Leng killed him and i got so PEEVED. i know his was being tortured by Kai Leng had no right to kill him. end of dsscussion.

So you meta-game the decision?

[TMA LIVE]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
*snip*
Even Grayson, controlled by Reaper tech, made a very, very poor threat to galactic security. And by poor, I mean 'not really.'

I don't think the Reapers were using Grayson to threaten galactic security so much as he was an unexpected opportunity. Doesn't have anything to do with the collector base... unless you consider the fact that the Reapers jump at unexpected opportunities with those who play with their toys.

Grayson was made from Reaper tech salvaged from the Collector Base (destroyed or intact).

Grayson is about as capable of a threat as a worst-case scenario from studying the base can be. Grayson is that worse-case 'the base poses an indoctrination risk' scenario: far more so than even actual conventional indoctrination, Grayson is indoctrinated, incredibly capable and lethal, under direct control of the Reapers, and with full access to intelligence and planning abilities provided by no less than the Reapers themselves.

In short, everything every other form of indoctrination can not provide.

And how much does Grayson do to undermine galactic affairs not already done by the Collectors? What deep, dark secrets does he uncover to forward to the Reapers that can undermine galactic defense? Secrets even the Reapers want, enough to spend their agent rather than send him into the untrackable Terminus systems?

Data on human biotics, a field that the Reapers have infinitely more experience and knowledge in over their countless cycles. A select human skill set that can't even tear through mass-producable kinetic barriers of our technology level. A skill that no one, with any sort of serious, can claim as the super-weapon against the Reapers.

And what does it take to bring down this great, ominous threat of Reaper technology? A shotgun blast. A blast that would have been implied earlier had a certain N7 obeyed the Illusive Man's own instructions and finished off Grayson rather than save him (the Man).


So let's review what that horrible, worst case scenario of the all-mighty terrible Reaper-tech-go-wild-under-reaper-control experiment amounted to: a couple dozen people died (likely more from the unrelated Turian attack than Grayson), some data from the Alliance's ascension project (the Alliance being a biotic third-rate power), and ended by the application of a shotgun.

The survival of the galaxy was in more risk from Anderson's actions (attacking the one force in the galaxy preparing for the Reapers) than by the actual Reapers themselves!

Greyson used a lot of his power at the time, so he was very weak, and caught off guard. You're also forgetting that it took more then one shotgun blast to take him down even then. And before that, he took out maybe 100 or more men of different races all by himself while on the run, and under an hour. I'd say that's almost a Shepard 2.0 if Greyson got a proper recharge.

I also think TIM again proves he sucks when it comes to preventing experimates from getting out. With something like Greyson, you'd think he'd just have his room gassed or torched from the flip of a switch, inside of leaving it up to his "Ninja/Assassin" (like seriously?).

[Dave of Canada]

Elite Midget wrote...

The only thing I can trust TIM with is that he's a terrorist that will backstab me as soon as the Reapers are dealt with.

He can't backstab you when the Reapers win.

[smudboy]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

The only thing I can trust TIM with is that he's a terrorist that will backstab me as soon as the Reapers are dealt with.

He can't backstab you when the Reapers win.

Can't wait for those Reapers to be dealt with!

[Iakus]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]iakus wrote...

Akuze and Teltin were Cerberus projects.  Though admittedly they were Alliance at the time.  I somehow doubt they were sanctioned actions.[/quote]Why?

The Alliance sanctioned Cerberus to do these sort of things in the first place.[/quote]

Call me an paragon idealist, but I doubt the Alliance would approve of actions like luring their own marines into thresher maw nests and biotic child deathmatches.  BAaT was bad enough, thankyouverymuch.  My suspicion is that Cerberus crossed all sorts of lines years before the actively split away.

[quote]
]That's not a list of project failures. That's a list of side missions involving Cerberus, and not even of different projects.

Missing Marines/Dead Scientist are part of the Akuze project, and not only is that hardly a disaster we have no grounds to say it didn't succede in its goals. A limited crime, not an example of incompetence.[/quote]

Perhaps Missing Marines was more crime against humanity than incompetance.  Though letting Shepard go couldn't have been considered a smart move.  But they were of two seperate experiments, years apart.  I'd also point out the "incompetance" factor includes Toombs getting away and seeking revenge on all the scientists that experimented on him. 

[quote]
There is dispute of whether Cerberus caused the Colony of the Dead in the first place: not only was it a pretty much negligable loss in the scale of things, are connection to Cerberus is that they got samples (husks) out. We can't say that project was a disaster, out of control, or a failure.[/quote]

If Cerberus only provided husks, where did the Dragon's Teeth come from?  And regardless of "scope".  This colony, however small, was wiped out.  I can't believe that's a success by any measure save an experiment to see how fast a set of Dragon's Teeth can wipe out a base.  To me, this is an excellent example of how:

Cerberus is careless with its experiments
Reaper tech is very, very, dangerous

[quote]
What you have left is the Rachni (one project) and Overlord (another). The Rachni failed, but not due to incompetence on Cerberus part. The fallout was limited, and not of galactic threat. Overlord was, but it not only was a legitimate branch of inquriery, but it didn't fail due to organization incompetence either. It's crash was due to one man's going against procedures. [/quote]

The rachni "limited fallout" still got dozens of Alliance marines killed, and who knows how many Cerberus soldiers.  Imagine if the rachni could have reproduced on their own?  Cerberus just had to touch the fire.

Overlord, here I thought TIM maintained "personal oversight" on all Cerberus projects.  Thus why so few of them go on at once?

I'm not arguing that Cerberus has endangered the galaxy before.  I'm arguing that Cerberus has a tendency to let rhier experiments get out of control, resulting in deaths of Cerberus teams, any unfortunates that happen to be too close, and result in monsters roaming the countryside.

[quote]
Miranda only calls Teltin a rogue cell, because that's about it. The rest she identifies as part of Cerberus's military wing, which is not the end-all-is-all of the organization. [/quote]

All of whom answer to TIM.

[quote]
Without a frame of reference, you can not make a valid conclusion against Cerberus on grounds of being inherently and continually incompetent... especially given how only one failure listed threatened serious consequences to the galaxy, and that one was undeniably against Cerberus protocols.[/quote]

You're right.  I don't know about however many successes, or failures that didn't unleash something nasty on a planet.  Perhaps if I had known, the choice would have been a lot harder.  But given the limited information my Shepard had at the moment.  And barring any third alternative, I had to go with what information I did have.  Namely:

Just because they've only threatened galactic stability once doesn't make them careful with unknown variables.  The results fo the experiments I have seen have gotten dozens, hundreds of innocent people killed at a time through their screwups, either through carelesness, or cold-blooded ruthlessness.

[quote]
This is erroneous overestimation. Reaper technology alone is not 'kill us all' any more than gunpowder or e-zero is. It is something that we don't know, not magic, and the only way to mitigate it is to understand it.[/quote]

It's not magic, but it's within spitting distance of Sufficiently Advanced.  It's technology that can indoctrinate people, turn people into husks, scions, and who knows what else.  It does need to be studied.  But keep it at arms length too.

[quote]
Reaper tech will be studied. It will be studied as fast as possible, as much as possible, with as few holds barred as possible... when the Reapers come. There will not be measured, scientific, safe deliberation then.

You aren't striking a blow against unsafe science. All you are doing is putting it off until the Reapers are already here, and the consequences are immediate at the worst time possible.[/quote]

Both paragons and renegades will be studying the technology.  Paragons will be studying the broken stuff.  Probably not getting as much information out of it, but with less chance of disaster.  Renegades will be working with live grenades.  Heavy risk, but....no, I just can't finish that phrase...


[quote]
Even Grayson, controlled by Reaper tech, made a very, very poor threat to galactic security. And by poor, I mean 'not really.'[/quote]

Haven't read that book yet, but I am left to wonder...how did it work out for whatever team was studying him?  And the surrounding countryside?


[quote]
Reapers are white elephants. You'd get more bang for less buck by mass producing AI/VI controlled ships fitted with Reaper-technology than you would by actually[/quote]

A fair assessment.  I should probably modify my statement to say that TIM would make his own Reapers "If it was feasible and he could get away with it"

[quote]
The base is where the swarms were created, and made to be able to target humans. Why wouldn't there be data on the swarms on the base?
[/quote]

More useful information than Mordin could get with Seekers on hand?  Now we're getting to the point where researching more conventional nonlethal takedowns would be more feasible

[TMA LIVE]

Shandepared wrote...

Yeah, it's not like those turians had anything to do with Grayson escaping.

And that justifies using a Ninja Assassin as your only way of killing Greyson? Not even a kill switch bomb in Greyson's head? (I mean, if they equiped a device to injected him with red sand remotely, why not do what they did in Escape from Newyork with Snake Plissken?)

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]iakus wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]iakus wrote...

Akuze and Teltin were Cerberus projects.  Though admittedly they were Alliance at the time.  I somehow doubt they were sanctioned actions.[/quote]Why?

The Alliance sanctioned Cerberus to do these sort of things in the first place.[/quote]

Call me an paragon idealist, but I doubt the Alliance would approve of actions like luring their own marines into thresher maw nests and biotic child deathmatches.  BAaT was bad enough, thankyouverymuch.  My suspicion is that Cerberus crossed all sorts of lines years before the actively split away.[/quote]Paragon idealist, then.

What do you think the Alliance used Cerberus for, then? Small-scale technology theft? 


[quote]
Perhaps Missing Marines was more crime against humanity than incompetance.  Though letting Shepard go couldn't have been considered a smart move.  But they were of two seperate experiments, years apart.  I'd also point out the "incompetance" factor includes Toombs getting away and seeking revenge on all the scientists that experimented on him.  [/quote]Two experiments of the same project line. Shepard had no proof or evidence of anything untoward, so how was letting Shepard go after the fact a 'bad' idea?

Why does Toombs getting away have to be incompetence on Cerberus's part, as opposed to chance and skill on Toombs? They aren't mutually exclusive.

[quote]
If Cerberus only provided husks, where did the Dragon's Teeth come from?  And regardless of "scope".  This colony, however small, was wiped out.  I can't believe that's a success by any measure save an experiment to see how fast a set of Dragon's Teeth can wipe out a base.  To me, this is an excellent example of how:[/quote]Where do Dragon's Teeth usually come from? Someone finds them on some colony,digs it up, and chaos happens.

The implication in the mission was that Cerberus showed up and took away husks for study from an already-happening event. Not that they caused the event in the first place. Admittedly, it is vague enough to be argued otherwise, but nothing says Cerberus caused the Colony of the Dead. We only know that it cameby during/after, and before Shepard allived.

[quote]
Cerberus is careless with its experiments
Reaper tech is very, very, dangerous[/quote]Not that dangerous, in and of itself. Yes, scale matters.


[quote]
The rachni "limited fallout" still got dozens of Alliance marines killed, and who knows how many Cerberus soldiers.  Imagine if the rachni could have reproduced on their own?  Cerberus just had to touch the fire.[/quote]Dozen are prety much limited in any scale over a thousand people. It doesn't even qualify as a rounding error on 'how much does this effect galactic stability.'

If we want to imagine things Rachni can't do, why not just imagine Rachni can summon the Reapers and be done with it? It's just as valid a hypothetical, and just as supported as well. We can also imagine what might have happened had the Rachni

[quote]
Overlord, here I thought TIM maintained "personal oversight" on all Cerberus projects.  Thus why so few of them go on at once?[/quote]EDI contradicts a number of things established otherwise, such as the exceptional nature of Shepard's cell. When in-game sources contradict, go with the one more routinely exercised and established.

In a sense, TIM does maintain oversight. But it isn't constant oversight, like people regularly consider. Archer did have to provide updates regularly to show progress (or lack of it). What we get early on in Overlord is Archer saying 'we've had a breakthrough, demonstration to follow,' and between then and the intended review the VI-human hybrid that was the brother went crazy.


[quote]
I'm not arguing that Cerberus has endangered the galaxy before.  I'm arguing that Cerberus has a tendency to let rhier experiments get out of control, resulting in deaths of Cerberus teams, any unfortunates that happen to be too close, and result in monsters roaming the countryside.[/quote]That's not objective grounds to say 'this is too dangerous for the galaxy,' though. Galactic survival outweighs all of those costs by such ridiculous margins that it should barely require reminding. The cost to Cerberus teams is something that the Cerberus personel volunteered for, and while the cost to non-volunteers is reprehensible, the cost of them and those countryside monsters is negligable to the survival of the galaxy.

Already, through stopping the Collectors alone, Cerberus has outweighed the human cost of all their inhumane, criminal actions combined to such an extent that the lives saved versus the lives cost doesn't even come out to a percent fraction. We can look at Horizon, where 'only' half the colony was saved, and find magnitudes more lives saved than Cerberus's implied, suspectable death tolls combined.

And that's just one colony, without reference to the rest. You don't have to like TIM, you don't have to believe that Cerberus shouldbe unleashed, to recognize that Cerberus has done far more good than bad for the galaxy.


[quote]
All of whom answer to TIM.[/quote]And? Your point was that she kept making excuses and calling everyone rogue. She never did. Pragia was rogue, and clearly wasn't answering to TIM. The rest she makes no such assertion, only that they did things differently.
[quote]
Just because they've only threatened galactic stability once doesn't make them careful with unknown variables.  The results fo the experiments I have seen have gotten dozens, hundreds of innocent people killed at a time through their screwups, either through carelesness, or cold-blooded ruthlessness.[/quote]And hundreds outweigh trillions?

You humans are all racist!
[quote]
It's not magic, but it's within spitting distance of Sufficiently Advanced.  It's technology that can indoctrinate people, turn people into husks, scions, and who knows what else.  It does need to be studied.  But keep it at arms length too.[/quote]Cerberus is arms length. Only the fingertips of Civilization need be burned if they do it.

[quote]
Both paragons and renegades will be studying the technology.  Paragons will be studying the broken stuff.  Probably not getting as much information out of it, but with less chance of disaster.  Renegades will be working with live grenades.  Heavy risk, but....no, I just can't finish that phrase...[/quote]That's an inherently untrue conceit. Risks come from misunderstandings and ignorance of the technology, and working from scraps and incomplete systems only heightens that ignorancy.



[quote]
Haven't read that book yet, but I am left to wonder...how did it work out for whatever team was studying him?  And the surrounding countryside?[/quote]Blown up by the Turians and Anderson.

Which is the only reason why Grayson got out into the galaxy in the first place.



[quote]
A fair assessment.  I should probably modify my statement to say that TIM would make his own Reapers "If it was feasible and he could get away with it"[/quote]So, knowing that it isn't feasible...?

[quote]
More useful information than Mordin could get with Seekers on hand?  Now we're getting to the point where researching more conventional nonlethal takedowns would be more feasible [/quote]A lot of very valuable collector and reaper tech is non-weapon related. Collector corpses alone could be gold mines for biotic, cybernetic, and genetic research for improving the ground troops against Reaper ground armies, simply in the sense of fortifying and boosting pre-existing abilities.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 18 octobre 2010 - 01:57 .

[Dean_the_Young]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Greyson used a lot of his power at the time, so he was very weak, and caught off guard. You're also forgetting that it took more then one shotgun blast to take him down even then. And before that, he took out maybe 100 or more men of different races all by himself while on the run, and under an hour. I'd say that's almost a Shepard 2.0 if Greyson got a proper recharge.

I didn't forget, it's just irrelevant to what it took to kill Greyson: a properly placed mass-produced infantry weapon. You throw enough bodies, he will fall. Or you could simply blow up the ship/space station he's on. That worked for Shepard, who's been beating up Reaper-cybernetic baddies for breakfast.

The question was never 'can he be stopped', it was 'how much collateral are we talking about when we find him?'

I also think TIM again proves he sucks when it comes to preventing experimates from getting out. With something like Greyson, you'd think he'd just have his room gassed or torched from the flip of a switch, inside of leaving it up to his "Ninja/Assassin" (like seriously?).

Literary license. ME has yet to even establish why ground troops and breeding rates actually matter in galactic warfare, so I'm not holding my breath for any great procedural competence for anyone, when we don't see it for anyone.

If it were up to me, I'd have put a bomb in Greyson's head. Only in addition to triggering a signal to detonate it, it would detonate the moment it didn't receive a constant signal source combination. So the moment Reaper tech corpse 518 goes beyond the bounds of the station... boom.

Then you could add signal kill switches, like if something happens to TIM then boom. If the station is attacked, boom.

[ODST 3]

I like to leave with a bang, not a "radiation pulse."

Plus I don't want to extend my relationship with Cerberus. I'd prefer an option to keep the station and use it myself, because I see it's potential uses. The choice to keep it makes you the Illusive Man's b1tch though.

[smudboy]

ODST 3 wrote...

I like to leave with a bang, not a "radiation pulse."

Plus I don't want to extend my relationship with Cerberus. I'd prefer an option to keep the station and use it myself, because I see it's potential uses. The choice to keep it makes you the Illusive Man's b1tch though.

Well at least you're planning ahead 

[PauseforEffect]

iakus wrote...

I blow up the base (yes, I'm paragon) and here's my reasoning:

1) Cerberus has a rather poor overall track record when it comes to playing around with aliens and alien tech.  I mean, how many messes did Shepard have to clean up over ME 1 and 2 when something goes haywire?  With something as particularly dangerous as Reaper tech, Cerberus could well make matters worse for the galaxy before the Reapers even arrive.  Cerberus may be willing to fight the Reapers.  But I am not yet convinced that they respect the power of the Reapers  Either TIM is incredibly callous concerning employee turnover, or he's completely incompetant in overseeing Cerberus projects.  Either way I wouldn't trust him around a bronze knife let alone Sufficiently Advanced technology.

2) This sorta ties in to #1:  potential booby traps.  I'm not talking about just self-destruct mechanisms or dormant husks.  I mean indoctrination gizmos.  There has been at least one UNC and N7 mission which involved humans finding an alien artifact and ending up indoctrinated before they realized what was happening.  Clearly it's not just Reapers themselves that can do that. 

3) I admit a worst case scenerio: we end up fighting Cerberus with Reaper tech.  Anyone who was a fan of Babylon 5 remember the Advanced Omega destroyers?  Granted TIM is probably smart enough not to turn on the Council or other governments before the Reapers are dealt with once and for all (barring alien mind-control or influence, see #2).  But once they are dealt with, you have to deal with an organization which is morally a very dark gray, armed with the most advanced tech in the galaxy and is not known for "playing well with others"  Cerberus may end up becoming, figuratively if not literally, a new race of Reapers.

Granted blowing up the base leaves the Home Team at a disadvantage.  I would have preferred leaving the base for someone whom I felt properly respected the power of the Reapers and had the wisdom to take proper precautions.  Liara or Anderson spring immediately to mind.  It would definitely be useful in understanding the Reapers.  However, I am also of the belief that the key to defeating the Reapers is not in immitating them or duplicating their abilities, but in finding our own way.  For millions of years they have manipulated the course of developement in intelligent life.  They have been writing the playbook, so to speak.  The answer is going to be in learning our own tricks.  Learning something the Reapers don't know yet, Using a weapon the Reapers haven't developed themselves.  The base may teach us who ansd what the Reapers are.  But it won't show us how to win.

Iakus writes this better than I. The criticism that it is foolish to assume another solution will come along without having the base as a fallback option is not reassuring. Not with the base itself but the people left with it. To trust an organization to save lives when they already are responsible for so many employees dead to begin with.
It was not my intention to say there will be another way as the reason to destroy the base. The problem is with Cerberus. They factor into this significantly because of the damage their work causes. All it takes is a fatal flaw, one wrong ambitious decision, and they could cost humanity the war with the Reapers.

[Lunatic LK47]

chris025657 wrote...

Well, there is more than just potential data on Reapers in the Collector base: it has a Reaper in progress and the machinery and technology needed to build one. That alone could prove valuable to understanding more about Reapers. And with that understanding, you could look for and exploit weaknesses and potentially advance our 
own technology for example.

There are certainly risks to studying it, but I see it like this:

Choice A: Destroy the base
Doing this eliminates the potential risks of keeping the base (such as a project failure or TIM using in counterproductive ways), but it also eliminates any potential technological gains to hedge against the risk of total genocide at the hands of the Reapers

Choice B: Keep the base
Now there is the risks associated with keeping the base, but the potential to mitigate the risk from the Reapers. 

I've just always viewed keeping the base as less risky and the Reapers as a significantly bigger threat than potential negative consequences of keeping the base. 

Forgot one thing on B. Reapers can find a way to disable whatever tech we may have created. The Reapers are not morons. What's to say they already know themselves well enough to hit the magic off-switch when we're about to fire our first shots?

Let's look at Predator 2 for example.

Gary Busey: Hey guys, let's use insulated suits to hide oureselves from the Predator!

Predator: Bwahaha! I have different visions and can see your UV lamps, morons!

What's to say the Reapers won't use a similar type of tactic?

Modifié par Lunatic LK47, 18 octobre 2010 - 08:30 .

[lovgreno]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

lovgreno wrote...
We know the base is dangerous,

How?

lovgreno wrote...
human genocide was what it was doing

The base did not genocide Humans. The Collectors did.

The Collectors get wiped out without destroying the Base.

lovgreno wrote...
and it can again unless exploded.

Will TIM authorize Human experimentation? Yes, he will.
Will TIM authorize Human genocide? No, he won't.

lovgreno wrote...
We don't know if there will be anything usefull in there.

Yes, we know. There are thermal clips all over the place, if nothing else.

Plus, now it can be a tourist attraction.

lovgreno wrote...
To say that the only way to beat the reapers lies in the base is pure speculation.

To say the opposite is meta-gaming.

Phaedon wrote...
What do you think that the CB has that makes it that valuable ?

It is an enemy HQ. What do you do with the enemy HQ, when you capture it? Right, you check it for booby-traps, then you look for the maps, papers, etc.

1. It is a factory for human genocide run by reapers. In the past reapers have always trapped their active (and almost all inactive) bases and equipment with traps that have never been detected untill it was too late.
2. How can you be sure that radiation wave was sucessfull? That is a very big and unknown base. That reactor was not designed for wiping out all life and potential dangers and TIMmy knew very little about it. Also there could be more collectors somewhere else, And Harbringer could come back and assume controll of Cerberus. You can not say that can not happen and you have no way of detecting indoctrination untill it's already too late.
3. TIMmy and Cerberus are not stupid, so no I don't think they would. Returning reapers or/and collectors and indoctrinated Cerberus on the other hand, yes probably. Remember what happened to Saren and Benezia. Those sneaky reapers are clever like that.
4. If the tourist agency mention the risk of reapers and collectors I doubt it will ever become very popular. Except for reapers and collectors of course, they would love it.
5. I never said the deus ex machina to save the galaxy had to be somewhere else. It might, the galaxy is much bigger than the base you know. It might also be in the base if Harbringer didn't delete data too dangerous to be left in enemy hands when he left. It might also be nothing there or a trap. So untill we know how ME3 ends all we realy have is speculations and it would just be silly of me to claim to know the absolute truth in this matter.
6. Yes if you know how said booby-traps look and how to defuse them before it's too late. Cerberus however, don't. If you don't know how to controll the base, keep it safe from recapture (don't underestimate those sneaky reapers) and it have the potential danger to ruin everything you worked for you should consider the burned earth tactic.

Modifié par lovgreno, 18 octobre 2010 - 08:02 .

[Grasser]

I kept the base in my first playthru, even tho my char was paragon, (got zaeed to thank for that... since I had him with me in the final part, he made a good point lol).

But after the SM I was thinking wtf did I do... I just gave the base to a evil person... (that smile TIM wears at the end is defintly evil, lol, let alone all the other things he and his organistion does), also keeping the base is a big risk, what if the teams inside become indoctrinated?

And the reapers could take it back, as I said b4, there is prolly still agents of the reapers around, I can't imagine things staying quiet til they arrive and yea that base would become their target.

Also in the next few dlc's expect agents of the reapers to show up or at least some sort of plot regarding the reapers.

Anywayz I just wish there was more dicussion from the crew and other ppl with shepard about keeping or destroying the base, it all seemed to be over too quick...