504 réponses à ce sujet

[Lunatic LK47]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

How about that technological recreation doesn't work like that?

Because ****ing hardware doesn't have ****ing computer viruses. ****ity **** ****, I am ****ing sick of people not having a ****ing clue of what ****ing technology actually ****ing entails when it's ****ing demonstrated that it doesn't ****ing work that way in the same ****ing game.

Uh, let's see. Copy data from Virus infected computer to USB drive= Corrupted data. What's to say the Reapers didn't use the equivalent should that be the case.

Lunatic, if the Reapers could arbitrarily shut down 'reaper tech', they would have done so and prevented Shepard from being able to take the base in the first place. The Thannix cannon is Reaper tech. EDI (which, you know, beat the tar out of the Reapers cyberwarfare abilities) is Reaper tech. The Reaper IFF, which allowed us to get through the Relay in the first place, is Reaper tech.

Except since Sovereign= blown to pieces, it would have been moot. An intact Reaper IFF however caused major problems with installation you know, since the crew got kidnapped and all. Considering Cerberus's consistent amount of shortcuts with their research, I'm not ruling out that Cerberus would just copy and paste the Reaper hardware, depending on the time gap between ME2 and ME3.

And that's just a fraction of what Reaper tech entail. The other fraction is everything else we can and do use. The Collector Armor, Collector Particle Beam, the Collector Assault Rifle which you can use are all Reaper tech. Mass Effect generators are Reaper tech. Mass Effect guns are Reaper tech. Mass Effect fields, including biotics, are Reaper tech.

Uh, the Collector Armor and Assault Rifles are gameplay items. Since when do they exactly fit into the story? The Collector Particle Beam was only one of a kind for Shepard to encounter, and even then, it's not electronically installed to Shepard's armor.

'Software viruses' aren't replicated when you reverse engineer hardware, as Cerberus and every species in the galaxy has demonstrated an ability to do when studying Prothean remains. Software viruses don't even work from external triggers without sensors to give a trigger, and nothing in hardware replication necessitates those sensors (to receive a 'do not work) system have to be made even if, for some bizaar, crazy reason, you replicate the software entirely without looking for something so obvious that teenagers/twentysomethings can think of it.

We don't even know how Cerberus is going to mine the data from the Collector base. I'm pretty sure that downloading data would include plugging in a data disk and downloading the entire library of software files. Even if the Collector computer consoles were disassembled, they'd need to plug it somewhere and that would risk creating unintentional back-doors for the Reapers to access.

Modifié par Lunatic LK47, 19 octobre 2010 - 12:03 .

[Dean_the_Young]

S-A128 wrote...

The base had to be destroyed

No it didn't.

Hence the choice.

and i will always destroy till there's nothing left from it.

Then you fail no matter the option, because canonically there is still valuable tech regardless.

and what if collectors where still on it

And what blowing up the reactor did nothing at all, and only the neutron burst killed any Collectors?

Nothing, because it doesn't occure because this is the Big Choice of the game, and the story is based upon honest choices occuring as told.

[Inverness Moon]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Uh, let's see. Copy data from Virus infected computer to USB drive= Corrupted data. What's to say the Reapers didn't use the equivalent should that be the case.

What part of "hardware doesn't have computer viruses" don't you understand? We don't need to use software found on the collector base to run hardware we build ourselves based on their technology.

[Dean_the_Young]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

How about that technological recreation doesn't work like that?

Because ****ing hardware doesn't have ****ing computer viruses. ****ity **** ****, I am ****ing sick of people not having a ****ing clue of what ****ing technology actually ****ing entails when it's ****ing demonstrated that it doesn't ****ing work that way in the same ****ing game.

Uh, let's see. Copy data from Virus infected computer to USB drive= Corrupted data. What's to say the Reapers didn't use the equivalent should that be the case.

We're studying the hardware. That's the point of keeping the base, as opposed to hacking the computers for data and blowing it up.

Hardware doesn't come with viruses in the technological principals.

Except since Sovereign= blown to pieces, it would have been moot.

So you're admitting that hardware, taken without software is safe?

Thank you, thank you, it's nice to see progress being made...

An intact Reaper IFF however caused major problems with installation you know, since the crew got kidnapped and all.

Not only was the IFF hidden function detected by EDI after review, it was purged as well once she had access. Not the most intimidating standard for the Reapers traps.

Considering Cerberus's consistent amount of shortcuts with their research, I'm not ruling out that Cerberus would just copy and paste the Reaper hardware, depending on the time gap between ME2 and ME3.

Years?

When the IFF hiden function was detected within days, if not hours?

Uh, the Collector Armor and Assault Rifles are gameplay items. Since when do they exactly fit into the story? The Collector Particle Beam was only one of a kind for Shepard to encounter, and even then, it's not electronically installed to Shepard's armor.

They are your much-feared Reaper/Collector tech hardware system. The armor is your armor. If there's basis to fear your common systems and weapons not connected to Shepards armor (like, nearly all of them) could be disabled, that would be the indicator.

We don't even know how Cerberus is going to mine the data from the Collector base. I'm pretty sure that downloading data would include plugging in a data disk and downloading the entire library of software files. Even if the Collector computer consoles were disassembled, they'd need to plug it somewhere and that would risk creating unintentional back-doors for the Reapers to access.

Cerberus has VI. Cerberus has AI. Cerberus has anti-Reaper cyberwarfare algorithms with a proven history of overcoming Reaper and Collector data traps and attacks.

Something tells me they won't be doing it by hand, or by plugging it into their main computer network.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

There's also another reason to destroy the base that I don't think that anyone has thought of and that is the fact that by using the collector's technology we are still following the same technological path that the Reapers want us to. "By using our technology you evolve down the path that we choice." The best way to defeat the Reapers is to create our own technology that is completely removed from the technology that they have layed out before us.



I think we've already gotten as much info about them when Soverign was destroyed and I think that making their own technology the core of our defense is mislead. You know what race is probably going to have the best hope of doing harm to the Reapers are the Geth because everything about their technology is completely free of any Reaper influence. This is how we beat the Reapers not by following the same path that every civilization has followed since the begining of time its finding and making our own way.



The Reapers know their own technology.and I bet whatever we find in the base won't do anywhere near as much harm to them as people who are in favor of saving the base believe. Its their technology they will know the advantages and the disadvantages of it much better than we ever will.

[Dean_the_Young]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Uh, let's see. Copy data from Virus infected computer to USB drive= Corrupted data. What's to say the Reapers didn't use the equivalent should that be the case.

What part of "hardware doesn't have computer viruses" don't you understand? We don't need to use software found on the collector base to run hardware we build ourselves based on their technology.

In fact, this is a very bad idea because the systems to run a Collector particle beam in a Collector Ship with a Collector grade power supply are going to be entirely different when you take the tech and model it for being retrofitted onto an Alliance ship with Alliance sensors with Alliance coding. You already have to entirely re-design old control software in the first place.

[Dean_the_Young]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

There's also another reason to destroy the base that I don't think that anyone has thought of and that is the fact that by using the collector's technology we are still following the same technological path that the Reapers want us to. "By using our technology you evolve down the path that we choice." The best way to defeat the Reapers is to create our own technology that is completely removed from the technology that they have layed out before us.

I think we've already gotten as much info about them when Soverign was destroyed and I think that making their own technology the core of our defense is mislead. You know what race is probably going to have the best hope of doing harm to the Reapers are the Geth because everything about their technology is completely free of any Reaper influence. This is how we beat the Reapers not by following the same path that every civilization has followed since the begining of time its finding and making our own way.

The Reapers wanted us to discover about the Reapers, use the Conduit, kill Sovereign, climb aboard a derilect Reaper, steal a Reaper IFF, cross the Omega 4 relay, and genocide the Collectors?

Um, yeah. Get right on that...

The reason that argument hasn't appeared in awhile is that the 'paths they desired' ended up with us dead, at the Citadel, and that was supposed to occur hundreds of years ago. We were not intended to discover the existence of the Reapers and actually be able to study and decipher their technology past that limit.

We're closer to their paths if we don't move forward and stay at the Galactic standard than if we move 'uphill'. The Reaper 'paths' are already far too wide to be escaped from: they cover everything from genetic startships (Leviathan of Dis) to telepathy relays (Protheans) to all the tech diversity in the current galaxy that developed along their paths.

The Reapers know their own technology.and I bet whatever we find in the base won't do anywhere near as much harm to them as people who are in favor of saving the base believe. Its their technology they will know the advantages and the disadvantages of it much better than we ever will.

Give me five examples of war technology in which a more advanced society was immune to the effects of lesser versions of their own technology.

Please provide another five in which greater technological deifference aided the technologically inferior faction.

[Lunatic LK47]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...


Hardware doesn't come with viruses in the technological principals.[/quote]

Uh, viruses can erase a hard-disk drive though... Just saying.

[quote]Cerberus has VI. Cerberus has AI. Cerberus has anti-Reaper cyberwarfare algorithms with a proven history of overcoming Reaper and Collector data traps and attacks.[/quote]

Is it guaranteed to prevent remote hacking attempts though? I'm not saying such countermeasures are going to fail at doing the job, but asking on the off-chance it does.

[quoteSomething tells me they won't be doing it by hand, or by plugging it into their main computer network.
[/quote]

We'll never know.

[Dean_the_Young]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...


Hardware doesn't come with viruses in the technological principals.

Uh, viruses can erase a hard-disk drive though... Just saying.

Data on a hard-disk is software. The virus only exists in a combination of ones and zeroes stored on that disk.

Data derived from taking that disk, examining its parts, figuring out the mechanics of how it stores ones and zeroes, and then creating a new hard disk from that data... does not have virus attached.

Is it guaranteed to prevent remote hacking attempts though? I'm not saying such countermeasures are going to fail at doing the job, but asking on the off-chance it does.

You know what guarantees absolute immunity from remote hacking?

Taking out receiver devices.

We'll never know.

Sure.

We can, however, expect people to have more sensibility and computer skills than, say, a rabit.

Of course they're going to use computers! 

[Iakus]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
[Zulu]
Or did they? 
[/Zulu]

Plenty of reasons. Accumulating differences of priorities. Differing views on proper role. Increased caution onthe part of the Alliance as time goes by (see Corsairs initiative, and failure).[/quote]

I think I'll wait on a more canonical source to explain that.

[quote]
Akuze wasn't triggered by a fake emergency. A colony did really go silent. (We don't even hear if Cerberus was behind that part even, or if the Cerberus role came after the colony.)[/quote]

That's two colonies that have gone silent where Cerberus is involved....



[quote]Not true, actually. Among the half-dozen other 'dragon's teeth dug up on small mining colony X' missions, Kaiden mentions that 'machine cultists' are a phenomenum that happens occasionally.[/quote]

Cultists, yes, but how often do they turn into husks?  Otherwise, why not comment on them on Eden Prime?

[quote]
Losing control of the Rachni was bad, but hardly a galaxy-damaging disaster. The potential value of having succeded, however, would have had galaxy-shaping benefits.[/quote]

And if Cerberus had been more cautious with the rachni?  Not underestimated their intelligence?  (this was a spacefaring race, after all)  Not cut corners?  They'd have learned teh same thing and not gotten anyone killed at all.


[quote]
]Answer yourself: how many lives was EDI worth? How many lives the Reaper IFF? How many lives in the coming war, if it is one by a war of attrition, will have been saved by the development of the Thannix as opposed to the older guns?

EDI was made from a trashed Reaper.  The IFF ultimately paid off, but do to Shepard's actions more than Cerberus.  Under Cerberus supervision, an entire research team gets indoctrinated and huskified.  With Shepard, well Shepard does take that unexpected road trip....

[quote]
Not really a statement of its competence, but I like this phrase "Every predator defends its territory"[/quote]Humanity is a predator species. I see no reason to apologize for the comparison, or to romanticize the prey.

[quote]
Hundreds are a sign of bigger things to come.[/quote]The trillions that can follow, yes.[/quote]

Funny how we can agree with the same phrase, yet derive entirely different meanings from it

[quote]
If I truly believed Cerberus could manage that, blowing up or keeping the base would be a much tougher call.[/quote]How many times has Cerberus had a problem it couldn't send someone to fix that threatened the galaxy?

Trick question, that "threatened the galaxy" part.


[quote]
No one is denying that you can gather information from scraps. But scraps are in no way as good a resource, nor are they inherently safer technolgy development platforms.[/quote]

As good a resource?  No I'll agree with that.

Safer?  I'm willing to bet they're a far cry safer, yes.

[quote]
You do realize that the people most likely to be studying the Collector remains on Horizon are the Cerberus aid/salvage teams, yes?[/quote]

Likely.  But it's a risk I'll have to take.  I'll just have to make sure Anderson gets a copy of everything Mordin discovers.

[quote]
Monster roaming the countryside didn't do much anyway.
[quote]

At what point is the threshhold for "much" anyway?


Advanced Omega- class Destroyers?[/quote]Why stop there?

I want Paragon Star Forges![/quote]

See, Now we're getting to "worst case scenerio" range.


[quote]So, you're admitting giving Cerberus collector technology to play around with is a good thing? 
[/quote]

A good thing?  Not really.  Like I said, I'd sooner trust the Mythbusters with the Collector base. 

However, I'm willing to accept that broken tech is less dangerous.  Particularly tech that I can make sure everyone has access to.

Modifié par iakus, 19 octobre 2010 - 12:26 .

[Dean_the_Young]

iakus wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
[Zulu]
Or did they? 
[/Zulu]

Plenty of reasons. Accumulating differences of priorities. Differing views on proper role. Increased caution onthe part of the Alliance as time goes by (see Corsairs initiative, and failure).

I think I'll wait on a more canonical source to explain that.

Fair enough: the new comic in the Spring?

That's two colonies that have gone silent where Cerberus is involved....

If you want to go by that standard, Cerberus was 'involved' with Freedom's Progress and Horizon as well.

Bad Cerberus! Bad!

Cultists, yes, but how often do they turn into husks?  Otherwise, why not comment on them on Eden Prime?

Why should there be? Hearing about something similar and seeing an entirely separate species (Geth) do it on Eden Prime aren't exactly on the same page. You didn't remember it, after all! :happy:

The implication is that those sort of cultists do turn themselves into husks.

And if Cerberus had been more cautious with the rachni?  Not underestimated their intelligence?  (this was a spacefaring race, after all)  Not cut corners?  They'd have learned teh same thing and not gotten anyone killed at all.

Maybe, but a large part of Cerberus's reason for existence is that time isn't a luxury humanity has, and that wars don't always wait for you to be ready beforehand. Safety is great when you have time: But speed has a virtue all of its own.

The Turians really, really screwed the pooch with first contact. I always maintain a slim hope that in ME3 we meet General Williams counterpart, the Turian officer who's lived in disgrace since starting the Shaxni incident.

EDI was made from a trashed Reaper.  The IFF ultimately paid off, but do to Shepard's actions more than Cerberus.  Under Cerberus supervision, an entire research team gets indoctrinated and huskified.  With Shepard, well Shepard does take that unexpected road trip....

Shepard wasn't even on the ship when a paid Cerberus employee and Cerberus construct fixed the problem!

(And once a the IFF was pacified, the Collector Base's days were numbered, even without Shepard. Shepard was indespensible up until the Derilect Reaper, really.)

Yes, a team got huskified. But I don't think anyone can say that the team's partial recovery of the IFF didn't outweigh their deaths.

Funny how we can agree with the same phrase, yet derive entirely different meanings from it

Indeed. I do enjoy discussing this with you, by the way, even if we do come to different conclusions.

I can't help but think we're the Geth/Heretic split here. (You, of course, are the heretic. )

As good a resource?  No I'll agree with that.

Safer?  I'm willing to bet they're a far cry safer, yes.

I suppose this is where we're going to have to fundamentally part ways, then.

At what point is the threshhold for "much" anyway?

Harming our chances against the Reapers more than the benefits from studying and creating the monster.

See, Now we're getting to "worst case scenerio" range.

But I said Paragon!

Paragon... of the sith!

[tommyt_1994]

Just got a theory here about how destroying the base could be a good decision. Keep in mind that I have no definite decision of what I'll do when I get there on my canon.



It's generally accepted that TIM will turn on Shepard when he believes that he no longer has use for him correct? Even by Cerberus apologists? Does anyone else think that TIM very well my see Shepard as expendable once he has the Collector Base?I could very well imagine TIM seeing Shepard as a liability against his organization if he let's him continue what he's doing once he has the CB.

[Inverness Moon]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

Just got a theory here about how destroying the base could be a good decision. Keep in mind that I have no definite decision of what I'll do when I get there on my canon.

It's generally accepted that TIM will turn on Shepard when he believes that he no longer has use for him correct? Even by Cerberus apologists? Does anyone else think that TIM very well my see Shepard as expendable once he has the Collector Base?I could very well imagine TIM seeing Shepard as a liability against his organization if he let's him continue what he's doing once he has the CB.

And what is Shepard doing that would make TIM see him as a threat? The reapers are the ultimate threat to humanity and the galaxy, and TIM spent billions to bring Shepard back from the dead and provide him with a ship so he could stop the collectors. Make no mistake, the collectors are not the only reason Shepard's life was restored, the main reason is the reapers. Killing Shepard beforehand will do nothing but make the reapers more likely to prevail, which is why TIM isn't going to entertain the thought until after the reapers are dealt with.

Shepard is certainly not expandable. Depending on how you've played, you would have allies in the krogan, geth, and rachni. Everyone and everything will be needed in order to destroy the reapers, TIM recognizes this.

Note that I also don't assume TIM is going to want to kill Shepard after the reapers are dealt with.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 19 octobre 2010 - 03:18 .

[chris025657]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

Just got a theory here about how destroying the base could be a good decision. Keep in mind that I have no definite decision of what I'll do when I get there on my canon.

It's generally accepted that TIM will turn on Shepard when he believes that he no longer has use for him correct? Even by Cerberus apologists? Does anyone else think that TIM very well my see Shepard as expendable once he has the Collector Base?I could very well imagine TIM seeing Shepard as a liability against his organization if he let's him continue what he's doing once he has the CB.

Whether the base is destroyed or not, TIM has made it very clear that he views Shepard as an asset to all of humanity. One of the main reasons he invested significantly into bringing Shepard back was to save humanity against the Reapers. Keeping the Collector base by no means has defeated the Reapers, and if the base is kept, TIM states that he still needs Shepard's help against the Reaper threat. It just wouldn't make sense for him to attempt to kill Shepard after all this. 

Edit: Or what Inverness Moon said

Modifié par chris025657, 19 octobre 2010 - 03:21 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Should you keep the base (and you romanced her), Miranda tells you that she's "dealing with a few loose ends for Cerberus."...AFTER SHE RESIGNED.



//cue conspiracy music

[Iakus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If you want to go by that standard, Cerberus was 'involved' with Freedom's Progress and Horizon as well.

Bad Cerberus! Bad!

I'm starting to feel a bit more sympathetic towards the Virmire Survivor's hostile reaction.  Finally, a colony disaster that Cerberus isn't responsible for!  But nobody will believe it! 

Why should there be? Hearing about something similar and seeing an entirely separate species (Geth) do it on Eden Prime aren't exactly on the same page. You didn't remember it, after all! :happy:

The implication is that those sort of cultists do turn themselves into husks.

But husks are made with Dragon'sTeeth.  If one were to hear that crazy colonists were known to occasionally impale themselves on big metal spikes and turn themselves into techno-organic zombies; then see people on Eden Prime impaled on big metal spikes and turned into techno-organic zombies...hmm...

Maybe, but a large part of Cerberus's reason for existence is that time isn't a luxury humanity has, and that wars don't always wait for you to be ready beforehand. Safety is great when you have time: But speed has a virtue all of its own.

This is the stuff Cerberus pulls when the Alliance is at relative peace.  With a Reaper invasion coming, they'd likely be more reckless, not less.

Shepard wasn't even on the ship when a paid Cerberus employee and Cerberus construct fixed the problem!

(And once a the IFF was pacified, the Collector Base's days were numbered, even without Shepard. Shepard was indespensible up until the Derilect Reaper, really.)

Yes, a team got huskified. But I don't think anyone can say that the team's partial recovery of the IFF didn't outweigh their deaths.

Yeah they got partial credit for that.  But imagine how much lower the body count might have been with regular crew rotations, exams, and keping an eye on the science team studying the supposedly dead machine-god?

I guess they should also get partial credit for not accidentally reviving it...

Indeed. I do enjoy discussing this with you, by the way, even if we do come to different conclusions.

Truth be told, I see benefits and drawbacks to both options.  But I like to play a "White Hat" and since "blow the base" seems to be the minority opinion here...

I can't help but think we're the Geth/Heretic split here. (You, of course, are the heretic. )

Nope, Heretics like to play with Reaper technology.  True Geth seek to find their own way

I suppose this is where we're going to have to fundamentally part ways, then.

Very well.  But I still think a derelict reaper full of husks say otherwise.

Harming our chances against the Reapers more than the benefits from studying and creating the monster.

A reasonable (if cold) estimate.  Although I prefer my science teams to live long enough to make discoveries we can use.

Modifié par iakus, 19 octobre 2010 - 03:56 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Uh, let's see. Copy data from Virus infected computer to USB drive= Corrupted data. What's to say the Reapers didn't use the equivalent should that be the case.

What part of "hardware doesn't have computer viruses" don't you understand? We don't need to use software found on the collector base to run hardware we build ourselves based on their technology.

Inverness, what about the reaper nanotechnology that created a direct link to the Reapers in Dark space? Maybe not all hardware has viruses but hardware that can think for itself definitely does.

And it can write its own, like it did in Retribution.

[GuardianAngel470]

chris025657 wrote...

tommyt_1994 wrote...

Just got a theory here about how destroying the base could be a good decision. Keep in mind that I have no definite decision of what I'll do when I get there on my canon.

It's generally accepted that TIM will turn on Shepard when he believes that he no longer has use for him correct? Even by Cerberus apologists? Does anyone else think that TIM very well my see Shepard as expendable once he has the Collector Base?I could very well imagine TIM seeing Shepard as a liability against his organization if he let's him continue what he's doing once he has the CB.

Whether the base is destroyed or not, TIM has made it very clear that he views Shepard as an asset to all of humanity. One of the main reasons he invested significantly into bringing Shepard back was to save humanity against the Reapers. Keeping the Collector base by no means has defeated the Reapers, and if the base is kept, TIM states that he still needs Shepard's help against the Reaper threat. It just wouldn't make sense for him to attempt to kill Shepard after all this. 

Edit: Or what Inverness Moon said

he also risked his own life to view his revenge on Grayson. he isn't above an emotional decision, he isn't the cold and logical person he wants you to believe. 

Now granted, this occured post suicide mission so it can't be used to justify a decision. However, it was obvious to me as I talked to him (using paragon lines) that he wasn't the logical person he portrayed himself as. He was prone to recklessness, as known from the Cerberus missions in ME1, he was quick to anger, relatively speaking, and he was ruthless.

To me, all that spells too dangerous. Yes we need tech and yes the collector base would be an easy and available source for it but I can't trust TIM to take the necessary precautions to ensure that experiments don't ruin everything I am doing to protect the galaxy.

Every experiment we know of that Cerberus has conducted has ended horribly. Rachni, thorian creepers, husks, Shepard, Jack, everything. To me, it is too much of a risk.

[GodWood]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
Every experiment we know of that Cerberus has conducted has ended horribly. Rachni, thorian creepers, husks, Shepard, Jack, everything. To me, it is too much of a risk.

The Lazarus project was a complete success.
As was the construction of the SR2 and EDI.

[PauseforEffect]

It has been interesting, the arguments are compelling

I've given my reasons for destroying the base, and seen the reasons for keeping it.

Not convinced Cerberus will not compromise the war with the Collector base, but can respect what has been given.

Thanks for the corrections, I've reached the end of my argument

[Arijharn]

I accept the fact that TIM may turn on me after the Reapers. I could not escape my own conscience however if I chose not to hand over the base to him to help prevent the Reapers, since the Reapers are basically beyond my current experience or knowledge. I need as many hands on deck to combat them because at the end of the day; the Reapers are a threat to TIM's plans as well.



After the smoke settles, that's when TIM would need to potentially be dealt with, but I can't 'attack my allies' beforehand, that just wouldn't be... prudent I feel.

[GGRush]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

There's also another reason to destroy the base that I don't think that anyone has thought of and that is the fact that by using the collector's technology we are still following the same technological path that the Reapers want us to. "By using our technology you evolve down the path that we choice." The best way to defeat the Reapers is to create our own technology that is completely removed from the technology that they have layed out before us.

I think we've already gotten as much info about them when Soverign was destroyed and I think that making their own technology the core of our defense is mislead. You know what race is probably going to have the best hope of doing harm to the Reapers are the Geth because everything about their technology is completely free of any Reaper influence. This is how we beat the Reapers not by following the same path that every civilization has followed since the begining of time its finding and making our own way.

The Reapers know their own technology.and I bet whatever we find in the base won't do anywhere near as much harm to them as people who are in favor of saving the base believe. Its their technology they will know the advantages and the disadvantages of it much better than we ever will.

Not using a piece of tech does not mean that you should blow it to pieces. Protheans "broke" the cycle by using conduit--their own version of relays, but they could not have done it without studying relays first. Conduit is, of course, influenced by reaper tech--relays.

Info in CB is surely valuable, and tech is surely worth studying. While getting the tech and sit there contended is wrong, simply toss it away is no better. Study it, and improve it.

Plus Cerberus is the study and improve type. Surely I won't trust the council on this one. They are the sitting type.

There's something I heard in the first Mass Effect that I feel applies
here. It was on Peak 15, Noveria, where the Rachni got loose. One of
the scientists said something along the lines of "We look out the
windows and there's nothing there. We forget there's an outside world
that is affected, and why it tells us what we should or should not do.
Maybe thats why science is led by ethics."
now thats all
paraphrasing, but when you let scientific exploration go to far, there
are dreadful consequences. For example, Akuze (yes I know they were
part of the Alliance, but I doubt that they would send 50 people there
if they knew that all of them would be meat) and Overlord. The project
studying the Maws might've started out simple, like collecting larvae
or something, or it might've started out big, like capturing them to
study in labs. But eventually it all snowballed into the Akuze incident.

I'm
not saying that its terrible to hand over the base, but Cerberus
scientists are often victims of "Curiousity killed the cat", and quite
frankly, I doubt that they can contain whatever mess they make by
themselves.

On another totally unrelated note, does anybody know
how exactly Shepard got off Akuze, or how the thresher maws went away?
If there's another thread point me towards it, or else just ignore this
last part.

Overlord isn't just scientific explorations. TIM already knows that the geth that attacked the citadel is less than 5% of total geth forces--and yet it caused immense damage to Asari and Turian fleet, and there is no Legion to tell him that the other 95% are neutral.

So of course he is starting a project to deal with the potential enemy that is 20 times bigger than which attacked the citadel.

[Christmas Ape]

I'm curious what the value of the metaphorical "wiped Collector hard drive" is. I mean, Cerberus already built EDI out of Reaper-tech, and she can pretty much tapdance through Collector systems like their security relied on Windows passwords, so I think it's fair to say their actual data storage and transmission systems are pretty much a known quantity. Assuming we purge the actual data completely for virus security - and assuming that a machine race who can produce geth-rewriting viruses with an evident minimum of trouble can't trap the firmware itself - we're left with some familiar technology.

And really, that the present races manufacture quantum mainframes and networked sapient software suggest to me that arguing about the capabilities of information technology of a species millions of years ahead of us, based on our present understanding, is a little like protesting that powered heavier-than-air flight is impossible because you're having a lot of trouble building a jet liner with flint knives and bearskins.

[Inverness Moon]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Inverness, what about the reaper nanotechnology that created a direct link to the Reapers in Dark space? Maybe not all hardware has viruses but hardware that can think for itself definitely does.

And it can write its own, like it did in Retribution.

What about it? Nanomachines aren't going to spontaneously appear in technology we created based on collector/reaper technology. I don't see what your point is.

Also, those nanomachines do what they do because they have software designed to make them act as viruses. TIM deliberately took the nanomachines as-is rather than creating his own so he could study the effects. This doesn't seem like a good example to me.

And what can write its own what?

Christmas Ape wrote...

I'm curious what the value of the metaphorical "wiped Collector hard drive" is. I mean, Cerberus already built EDI out of Reaper-tech, and she can pretty much tapdance through Collector systems like their security relied on Windows passwords, so I think it's fair to say their actual data storage and transmission systems are pretty much a known quantity. Assuming we purge the actual data completely for virus security - and assuming that a machine race who can produce geth-rewriting viruses with an evident minimum of trouble can't trap the firmware itself - we're left with some familiar technology.
And really, that the present races manufacture quantum mainframes and networked sapient software suggest to me that arguing about the capabilities of information technology of a species millions of years ahead of us, based on our present understanding, is a little like protesting that powered heavier-than-air flight is impossible because you're having a lot of trouble building a jet liner with flint knives and bearskins.

You seem to be implying that the collector base only has the value of a wiped hard drive, and not the value of a factory used for constructing reapers and advanced technology used to trade to organics.

We also really don't need to purge all the data in the collector base. Viruses are not magic, viral code will not be able to do anything if you don't execute it. The collectors wouldn't even need to have viruses in their computer since they didn't believe anyone would ever reach the base.

You're also making some pretty big assumptions about EDI's relative level of success and collector computer systems compared to the rest of the galaxy. Anyhow, it's not really the physical computer systems that are important.

[chris025657]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

he also risked his own life to view his revenge on Grayson. he isn't above an emotional decision, he isn't the cold and logical person he wants you to believe. 

Now granted, this occured post suicide mission so it can't be used to justify a decision. However, it was obvious to me as I talked to him (using paragon lines) that he wasn't the logical person he portrayed himself as. He was prone to recklessness, as known from the Cerberus missions in ME1, he was quick to anger, relatively speaking, and he was ruthless.

TIM wasn't intentionally risking his life to get revenge on Grayson. He need a test subject and Grayson was a former operative. It was really the unexpected Turian invention that made everything dangerous. 

Zaeed had killed dozens of Cerberus operatives in the past and TIM was willing to overlook this for his usefulness against the Collectors. Shepard could have also killed many Cerberus operatives but again, TIM took the logical route in investing heavily into bringing him or her back to fight the Collectors and Reapers.