275 réponses à ce sujet

[Ziggeh]

outlaworacle wrote...

Just put them both on the cover. Double the iconographic iconicness

Haha, unfortunately it doesn't work like that, it's be more like "half the iconicness" as people questioned which one was the main character. I know they'd get it afterwards, if they saw pretty much any other information than the box art, but that's the point; The box art is there to cover those first few seconds of impression and grab attention.

[Sable Rhapsody]

ziggehunderslash wrote...
The box art is there to cover those first few seconds of impression and grab attention. 

Exactly.  The box art makes me think, "Hmm.  That game looks interesting."  And then I follow up with a little of my own digging around before buying the game.  It's during my own research that I find out about system specs, gender choice, etc.  It is not the responsibility of the box art to tell me every detail of the game, just to give me the general gist.  

[DaewaNya]

Maria13 wrote...

Personally I wouldn't have phrased this as a 'little' request. 'Little' is a somewhat disempowering term, makes us into 'little women' with 'little requests' I would have said a 'reasonable request'. Sounds more solid and assertive.

But hey, I'm a screaming feminist banshee

What the ... ???   This topic is unbelievable, I don't know if I should cry or laught.
It's just a cover for christ's sake. It just happens that, for now, the cover features Garett, so be it. Now I'm just asking a dual cover featuring LadyHawk instead ! If it's too much money, then a jpg would be enough so I can print it ! This IS a little request.

Well, when I'm at it, I'll share my opinion too then

What I see is that Dragon Age is definitly taking the Mass Effect marketing path, so let's stop debating of LadyHawk being behind the scene, she'll always be, just like Jane Shepard. The Sacred Ashes trailer was just fine back to DAO, it shows some companions and a cool/random grey warden. I wish something similar was done with DA2 but whatever.

About the cover, for me it's just an artwork. I doubt people will just go to the stores and take a game just based on the cover. Now we have many ways to get informed and the last/least ways are TV Ads and the back of the box seriously. I mean, EA tries to reach the largest public, it's understandable but futile. First that's an RPG, people playing RPG are very picky, there's no way they gonna buy just because Garett Hawk is cool. Second, it's a sequel. Anyone aware of this would automatically check on the first one.

Now about LadyHawk: I might be a female character player but I'm fine with showing Garett all the time. It wasn't a problem with Mass Effect 2 to begin with. Let's just hope she'll be polished enough in game, that's what really matter. Everything is moddable (hopefully) so all we need is voice material , everything else (animation and all) doesn't matter.

[Sherbet Lemon]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

ziggehunderslash wrote...
The box art is there to cover those first few seconds of impression and grab attention. 

Exactly.  The box art makes me think, "Hmm.  That game looks interesting."  And then I follow up with a little of my own digging around before buying the game.  It's during my own research that I find out about system specs, gender choice, etc.  It is not the responsibility of the box art to tell me every detail of the game, just to give me the general gist.  

I shouldn't really be posting, but anything to get out of studying, ha.

I just want to address something, and I think this speaks to the heart of the nature of the debate.  Ultimately, it depends upon how you see the nature of image, and what it speaks to as far what we value as culturally significant.  There is reason why people harp on image and its relation to how gender is represented as these images perpetuate myths, cultural behavoirs and the like.  The box art is a representation of what is deemed culturally significant.  Why must the iconic Hawke be male, and to take that a step further, a white male?  Because the white maie is deemed the most significant.

And to respond to those who claim that it's just marketing to those who would be most likely to purchase the game, I just want to say that if marketing is done to a certain group in order to appeal to a certain group, then it stands to reason that eventually people will be think this game is not for me, it is for XYZ group.  The process of socialization is so thoroughly ingrained into our societal structure that it becomes difficult to see past it.  Gender is not real.  Race is not real.  They are all mandated (invisible though) social behaviors, ones that are picked up and reinforced continually through reification and other factors.  If girls are told that they don't play games, made to believe that is a boy thing, then guess what's going to happen (Of course I know that there are plenty of girls who play games, I'm just stating this for arguments sake).

That being said.  The OP has a right to make her feelings known.  I think nothing will ever change if we do not have an open and fair dialogue about these sorts of things.  I think Bioware has done some marvelous things as far as creating a game that is fair to both genders, races (and the like) and there is nothing malicious or sexist within their intent at all.  I think this is more emblematic of the gaming industry as a whole.

That's just my opinion, so yeah.  Goodness, I rambled.  Sorry, I hope what I said makes sense.

[ankuu]

Somebody drew F Hawke and M Hawke side by side on this forum i think...And i love the idea! Still, as far as i saw, Bioware loves their male leads (see the male Shepard only trailer for ME3).

These 2 would look interesting next to eachother (the poses especially)!

http://skittlefox.de...lar hawke&qo=99
http://chacou.devian...ou/1845881&qo=3

copyright to skittlefox and chacou

Modifié par ankuu, 13 décembre 2010 - 06:49 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Village Idiot wrote...

I shouldn't really be posting, but anything to get out of studying, ha.

I just want to address something, and I think this speaks to the heart of the nature of the debate.  Ultimately, it depends upon how you see the nature of image, and what it speaks to as far what we value as culturally significant.  There is reason why people harp on image and its relation to how gender is represented as these images perpetuate myths, cultural behavoirs and the like.  The box art is a representation of what is deemed culturally significant.  Why must the iconic Hawke be male, and to take that a step further, a white male?  Because the white maie is deemed the most significant.

And to respond to those who claim that it's just marketing to those who would be most likely to purchase the game, I just want to say that if marketing is done to a certain group in order to appeal to a certain group, then it stands to reason that eventually people will be think this game is not for me, it is for XYZ group.  The process of socialization is so thoroughly ingrained into our societal structure that it becomes difficult to see past it.  Gender is not real.  Race is not real.  They are all mandated (invisible though) social behaviors, ones that are picked up and reinforced continually through reification and other factors.  If girls are told that they don't play games, made to believe that is a boy thing, then guess what's going to happen (Of course I know that there are plenty of girls who play games, I'm just stating this for arguments sake).

That being said.  The OP has a right to make her feelings known.  I think nothing will ever change if we do not have an open and fair dialogue about these sorts of things.  I think Bioware has done some marvelous things as far as creating a game that is fair to both genders, races (and the like) and there is nothing malicious or sexist within their intent at all.  I think this is more emblematic of the gaming industry as a whole.

That's just my opinion, so yeah.  Goodness, I rambled.  Sorry, I hope what I said makes sense.

Ooo, now we're getting into touchy territory.  At least we're doing so civilly--props for that.

I just want to touch on one mostly unrelated thing: gender and race are not ENTIRELY socially constructed.  They are associated with biological differences.  Those whose chromosomes read XX and those with XY have different physiologies, and the biological differences contribute to behavioral differences.  There are also biological differences between people of different races.  The differences are not huge on average, but they exist.  Before anyone jumps down my throat, I'm not attaching a value judgment.  I'm just saying they exist and contribute to our concepts of gender and race.  Human beings are not blank slates--it's the interaction of biology and environment that shapes who we are.

</off topic>

As for the games industry, I find it odd that games catch flak for their marketing techniques, and the same techniques applied to movies go unchallenged.  Movies often go the same route of marketing an "iconic" main character and keeping the information provided in posters and previews relatively simplistic and undetailed.  Can you imagine what the marketing would be like if they didn't?  Or maybe it's a different beast due to the interactivity of games, and the fact that you ARE, in a sense, the main character.

[Ziggeh]

Village Idiot wrote...
I think Bioware has done some marvelous things as far as creating a game that is fair to both genders, races (and the like) and there is nothing malicious or sexist within their intent at all.  I think this is more emblematic of the gaming industry as a whole.

Aye, that's pretty much what I'm saying. I don't think it says anything about Bioware  if they use a "language" that has been predefined. It's the language itself we should question.

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
Or maybe it's a different beast due to the interactivity of games, and the fact that you ARE, in a sense, the main character.

Ya, it's nature is unique due to the variable protagonist, this is something that just doesn't exist in any other mainstream medium, and so there isn't a "language", a set of commonly identifiable symbols that properly describes it's nature and so it falls back on the closest parallel: other game genres and films.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 13 décembre 2010 - 07:30 .

[Maria13]

And cinema is not exempt from criticisms... For example the pairings of frankly, veteran actors and the latest female bright young things... Gives me a very high Yuk! factor

[Ziggeh]

Maria13 wrote...

And cinema is not exempt from criticisms...

I'd say its open to far more criticism, not only does it not have relative infancy as an excuse, it all but created the state of affairs.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 13 décembre 2010 - 08:14 .

[Kakistos_]

To those of you that say "Female gamers are in the minority", you should know that according to surveys, amoung PC gamers, nearly half of them are women. Regardless of their "minority", women are a huge chunk of the demographic and it is simply foolish not to aim more marketing techniques in their direction. Also, from what I understand, Bioware has limited control of the direction in marketing.

[Firky]

Kakistos_ wrote...

To those of you that say "Female gamers are in the minority", you should know that according to surveys, amoung PC gamers, nearly half of them are women. Regardless of their "minority", women are a huge chunk of the demographic and it is simply foolish not to aim more marketing techniques in their direction. Also, from what I understand, Bioware has limited control of the direction in marketing.

Not that I'm disputing that there are female gamers around, but do you have any links to statistics? I don't reckon 50% of PC gamers are women but I'd be happily proved wrong.

Also - totally put Lady Hawke on the box. Please.

Modifié par Firky, 13 décembre 2010 - 10:20 .

[Altima Darkspells]

Kakistos_ wrote...

To those of you that say "Female gamers are in the minority", you should know that according to surveys, amoung PC gamers, nearly half of them are women. Regardless of their "minority", women are a huge chunk of the demographic and it is simply foolish not to aim more marketing techniques in their direction. Also, from what I understand, Bioware has limited control of the direction in marketing.

I'd settle for any.

And yes, BioWare has almost no control over the marketing.  I'm not sure they can even post pictures on the website without documentation signed in triplicate then wiped upon the arses of their EA corporate masters.

Which, when you consider Mike Laidlaw got out a pic of LadyHawke rather quickly, makes him some sort of super hero.

[Kakistos_]

Firky wrote...

Kakistos_ wrote...

To those of you that say "Female gamers are in the minority", you should know that according to surveys, amoung PC gamers, nearly half of them are women. Regardless of their "minority", women are a huge chunk of the demographic and it is simply foolish not to aim more marketing techniques in their direction. Also, from what I understand, Bioware has limited control of the direction in marketing.

Not that I'm disputing that there are female gamers around, but do you have any links to statistics? I don't reckon 50% of PC gamers are women but I'd be happily proved wrong.

Also - totally put Lady Hawke on the box. Please.

This is but one of many.
http://www.grabstats...sp?StatCatID=13

[Firky]

Kakistos_ wrote...
This is but one of many.
http://www.grabstats...sp?StatCatID=13

But these are slippery statistics though, hey? Female gamers overall might be 40% but what plaforms and genres do they primarily play? 

I'm guessing 40% of DA players weren't female but I'd really love to know the statistic. I doubt anyone knows though.

This is not to say that us chicks aren't a passionate and vocal minority, of course.

[Russalka]

I could definitely see women as being near to or even half of the playerbase of Dragon Age.

If one goes by stereotypes, then Bioware has given good enough storylines, enjoyable romances and attractive male cast to attract quite a lot of fan girls.

Modifié par Russalka, 14 décembre 2010 - 05:41 .

[Maria Caliban]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

I just want to touch on one mostly unrelated thing: gender and race are not ENTIRELY socially constructed.  They are associated with biological differences.  Those whose chromosomes read XX and those with XY have different physiologies, and the biological differences contribute to behavioral differences.  There are also biological differences between people of different races.  The differences are not huge on average, but they exist.  Before anyone jumps down my throat, I'm not attaching a value judgment.  I'm just saying they exist and contribute to our concepts of gender and race.  Human beings are not blank slates--it's the interaction of biology and environment that shapes who we are.

Gender is a cultural construct. It doesn't even reflect biology, as biologically speaking, humans don't only come in XX or XY. Even if we ignore that population, a cultural construct based on a physical feature is no less of a cultural construct.

If I say that people will dark eyes are all aggressive and active while people with light eyes are intellectual and passive, I can't claim a biological basis for my system just because eyes are part of the body.

Firky wrote...

I'm guessing 40% of DA players weren't female but I'd really love to know the statistic. I doubt anyone knows though.

BioWare might not know how many players are female, but they do know how many people played as female, which might be even more relevant for this discussion.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 13 décembre 2010 - 11:11 .

[DaewaNya]

Here's an example: Persona 3 Portable. It's a dungeon RPG featuring two playable characters, one male (blue hair, blue eyes, headphones) or one female (red hair, red eyes on the right). In addition to exploring dungeon, the main protagonist has to maintain good social relationships, become friends or lovers. Of course, whether or not you play as a female or a male, the game adapts itself.

See bioware? Both main character on the cover ! You can do it ! No excuses about confusing people.

Modifié par DaewaNya, 18 décembre 2010 - 06:37 .

[Altima Darkspells]

DaewaNya wrote...

See bioware? Both main character on the cover ! You can do it ! No excuses about confusing people.

Not only that, but there are more women on the cover than men.

Of course P3P is probably one of the few games where playing as a girl (or distaff counterpart) is one of its main selling point.

[Shadelon]

 I don't know if this has been suggested, but mayhap someone talented with photoshop and such could do a fan art version of the DA-II box art with Lady Hawke instead?

I've always printed out fan art versions of the Madden box art with like Matt Hasselbeck from the Seattle Seahawks instead of whoever the cover athlete is for that year, so perhaps someone with that kind of talent here could do the same for DA-II. I'd download it for sure, since, even as a male, I do tend to only play female characters, even in pokemon games. That's just me. 

[Sutamina]

best bet to get the box art you want is to use a multicolored inkjet printer the picture you want and tape it onto the box.

[DaewaNya]

Here's another great example: Dawn Of War II Retribution




Come on Bioware ! It's really not too much asking !

Modifié par DaewaNya, 07 janvier 2011 - 08:59 .

[Ryuukishi]

A reversible cover is such an awesome idea! I have no problem with male Hawke being the focus of the game's branding and advertising, but if given the choice I would rather have female Hawke on the cover of my own copy.

[AngelicMachinery]

One side of the box should be bro-hawke and the other should be fem-hawke.

[Taiga7US]

Personally I don't care for the cover or the promotional art itself. This happened with Mass Effect too. What bothers me is that making male Hawke/Shepard the cover boy kind of gives the feeling that the female character is non canon. Like the male is the real choice, and the female is just an extra.

I really dislike that, specially on games that supposedly let you choose these things.