25 réponses à ce sujet

[mouser9169]

I know every toolset has its learning curve and issues, and none will be perfect for everybody.

I'm looking for a toolset to practice making games (stand alone mods) before I spend the money on an engine like C4 (plus art assets, since I wouldn't plan on making everything from scratch).

I've got some good programming/development background: C, C++, Java, and a bit of experience with 3d objects - 3ds Max.

Is any current game engine out there "better" than the others for this? The ones I'm aware of are Neverwinter Nights (I+II), Dragon Age, Elder Scrolls (Oblivion and Morrowind), and Djinni (basically NVN again from what I gather). Oh, and Torchlight (Ogre, IIRC).

I'm looking to make 3rd person view CRPG's in the style of Baldur's Gate with some Final Fantasy thrown in. I know that I need to start small (a village, an outdoor area, a dungeon) and most of my early games will suck (just like starting any other skill, you don't play guitar like Eric Clapton or Steve Vai in a few weeks).

Sorry if I rambled, but any suggestions from the modders here?

[Obadiah]

I've only used NWN1, NWN2, and Dragon Age. I'd say NWN1 is the easiest to start of with. In fact, I think Bioware actually used it when developing Dragon Age levels, since creating a level in Dragon Age is soooo much more work. You can get stuff working and deployable pretty quick, and there was actually a published guide for builders when it was first released (not sure if it's still available). The toolsets for the other two games I mentioned sort of build off the functionality in that one.

Plus NWN1 has multi-player support.

EDIT: But honestly, you should probably just use whatever toolset you have that's available. Barring that, the Unreal Development Toolkit is now free to download. Looks like a lot of the pros use that.

Modifié par Obadiah, 17 octobre 2010 - 05:05 .

[DarthParametric]

Making an actual game is a very different proposition from making mods for an existing game. I'm not sure any mod toolset is going to help you much specifically in that regard. Most skills, like asset creation (models, textures, etc.) and scripting/coding, are reasonably independent anyway (e.g. you don't learn 3D modelling via a game toolset, you use a 3rd part app like Max, Maya, etc.).

[mouser9169]

Obadiah wrote...

I've only used NWN1, NWN2, and Dragon Age. I'd say NWN1 is the easiest to start of with. In fact, I think Bioware actually used it when developing Dragon Age levels, since creating a level in Dragon Age is soooo much more work. You can get stuff working and deployable pretty quick, and there was actually a published guide for builders when it was first released (not sure if it's still available). The toolsets for the other two games I mentioned sort of build off the functionality in that one.

Plus NWN1 has multi-player support.

EDIT: But honestly, you should probably just use whatever toolset you have that's available. Barring that, the Unreal Development Toolkit is now free to download. Looks like a lot of the pros use that.

Thanks for the info, the last I had checked you needed $250,000 AND a good track record of published games before you could go near Unreal.

The big advantage to going with a "game" modder is all the art assets. Yes, I do have access to 3d modelling programs, up to top professional grade, but personally, I'm not much of a modeller.  Doing it this way lets me design plots, levels, storylines and quests much more quickly. Then, when I'm ready to go, I can bring a modeller on board or struggle through some on my own to start.  I could just jump in with an engine, but then I'm buying pieces from Daz or using the same tree and humanoid models over and over. On the flip side, if I had bought a license for C4 when I was first looking at it, I'd have free updates for life...

The Aurora line, including Dragon Age (though it is a different engine) all use C based scripting, which is a big plus, but I was wondering if anyone had experience with any of the other toolsets available out there.

Oh, and I have that "builder's guide" for Neverwinter Nights. It's painfully obvious the authors never actually used the toolset (and I hear the one for NVN 2 is even worse).

[Proleric]

For making a complete new adventure, you'd probably want to look at NWN, NWN2 and DAO.

NWN is the easiest (especially area creation). It also has a huge portfolio of community-made artwork etc.

On the other hand, DAO looks much better. It's more flexible in most respects (though it doesn't support multiplayer). If you're looking for state-of-the-art, and are prepared to make a little more effort, DAO would be the obvious choice.

[mouser9169]

NWN 1 is pretty much out for being tile based. I know that makes it quick to throw levels together, but it's too limiting. Is the Dragon Age toolset much improved over NWN 2?



And has anyone here had any experience with any of the non-bioware toolsets?

[0x30A88]

I have no experience in the Toolset, nor am I a master at C scripting - This toolset is not that hard except for level editing, which kind of seems impossible in the beginning, but then you'll chum out decent looking levels in a matter of months. Making indoor levels is what's really hard, for many of the models used for walls and some floors and other pieces is not really that easy to work with, since they don't just fit together - but what you end up justify the hardship.

You have a lot of power, you can make it so only the hard-coded GUI is what's left of DA:O - But still it's just a game mod, not a game on it's own.

Modifié par Gisle Aune, 17 octobre 2010 - 11:54 .

[mouser9169]

But still it's just a game mod, not a game on it's own.

The same could be said for Counterstrike 


But I do get what you're saying. Still, learning by making "mods" for free beats learning by paying money for tools and artwork that don't get me much further along in the "learning the basics" part. At least from where I'm sitting.

[-Semper-]

depends on the game you want to create. if it's an rpg you could use every modable game like nwn1+2, da:o, elder scrolls, fallout3.

if you are looking for a more action paced game i would go with the unreal engine developement kit, half life2, crysis or doom3 (tech4), wich is open source.

Modifié par -Semper-, 17 octobre 2010 - 12:28 .

[Dallo]

mouser9169 wrote...

Oh, and I have that "builder's guide" for Neverwinter Nights. It's painfully obvious the authors never actually used the toolset ...

Are you talking about the set of tutorials made by Bioware staff or the Guide To Building created by The Builders Project?  If the former then I agree.  They were poorly presented and confusing.  If the latter, however, then I couldn't disagree more.  It was made for modders by modders, many of whom have products in the NwN HoF.

On topic, I suspect it'd be a waste of time to mess with an older toolset before jumping into something you were truly serious about.  Even the aurora toolset took a relatively long time to master/become really proficient, and there's probably very little worthwhile carry-over experience to be had.  Perhaps some things like writing convo trees might benefit from the prior experience but very little else.

[mouser9169]

Dallo wrote...

mouser9169 wrote...

Oh, and I have that "builder's guide" for Neverwinter Nights. It's painfully obvious the authors never actually used the toolset ...

Are you talking about the set of tutorials made by Bioware staff or the Guide To Building created by The Builders Project?  If the former then I agree.  They were poorly presented and confusing.  If the latter, however, then I couldn't disagree more.  It was made for modders by modders, many of whom have products in the NwN HoF.

On topic, I suspect it'd be a waste of time to mess with an older toolset before jumping into something you were truly serious about.  Even the aurora toolset took a relatively long time to master/become really proficient, and there's probably very little worthwhile carry-over experience to be had.  Perhaps some things like writing convo trees might benefit from the prior experience but very little else.

I was referring to the "Official WorldBuilder Guide" you could buy at game stores and on Amazon by Versus Books. I thought it was by Bradygames, but I happened to have it handy and checked

Almost all of the tutorials I found at that time on the internet were much, much more helpful.0+

Edit: and I think you underestimate how much does carry over: Level building, sure HOW you build the levels may be different, but you still need to be able to build levels that are good and don't suck. Conversations - same thing, how you make the tree may change, but dull, boring conversations will kill a game no matter how they were made. Balancing appropriate challenges and rewards.

That said, I suppose I'm looking for the most "modern" of the current toolsets, which seems to be DA.  I did look at Unreal, but their licensing terms are pretty horrid compared to other engines (40% of profits). I suppose I could use that then switch, but I'd have the same problem of lack of art assets that I would with going straight to C4 now.

Modifié par mouser9169, 18 octobre 2010 - 12:56 .

[Dallo]

mouser9169 wrote...

I was referring to the "Official WorldBuilder Guide" you could buy at game stores and on Amazon by Versus Books. I thought it was by Bradygames, but I happened to have it handy and checked

Almost all of the tutorials I found at that time on the internet were much, much more helpful.0+

Ah, ok   Now that you mention it I do vaguely remember some commentary about how poor that thing was.  If you really found the 'official' set of tutorials to be useful in comparison then it must've been truly woeful...

Edit: and I think you underestimate how much does carry over: Level building, sure HOW you build the levels may be different, but you still need to be able to build levels that are good and don't suck. Conversations - same thing, how you make the tree may change, but dull, boring conversations will kill a game no matter how they were made. Balancing appropriate challenges and rewards.

Mate, I'm sure that messing with another toolset for experience wouldn't be a total waste of time, but still quite unproductive, in my opinion, in the larger scheme of things.  You'd be better off simply jumping into the deep end, I reckon.  In my experience either you've got it or you haven't where design aesthetics is concerned, and either you've got good ideas or you haven't, and writing a bunch of convos in another toolset is only going to assist with a general understanding of the logistical considerations such an endeavour requires.  Again, either you can write or you can't.

Just to provide a personal anecdote, when I first started creating a module (aurora toolset) that was eventually released I didn't know how to build at all.  My area design skills were zero, for example.  My son however could build a bit and for several months he actually did all that work but to my instructions as i looked over his shoulder.  These areas turned out to be pretty good, the point being that whilst he did the actual laying down of tiles etc it was actually my design.  Eventually he got jack of it and I had to actually learn how to do it for myself.

Modifié par Dallo, 18 octobre 2010 - 03:33 .

[Proleric]

mouser9169 wrote...

... I did look at Unreal, but their licensing terms are pretty horrid compared to other engines (40% of profits)...

You probably already know that the DAO toolset EULA states that it is "solely for your personal noncommercial use".

[mouser9169]

Proleric1 wrote...

mouser9169 wrote...

... I did look at Unreal, but their licensing terms are pretty horrid compared to other engines (40% of profits)...

You probably already know that the DAO toolset EULA states that it is "solely for your personal noncommercial use".

Yes. Hence why I said "practice".

C4 costs  $350 per user for the standard license, and is good for an unlimited number of projects so long as you don't receive more than $100,000 from a publisher (I'd love to have that problem) or charge more than $100 for a game (that includes monthly fees, FTP but store, as soon as you get $100 from one customer on one title).  The main "problem" that keeps me from "jumping right in" as one poster put it, is the lack of art assets. There's a few buildings, a spider, some skeletons, a tree, and some miscellaneous stuff, but for the rest I either become a Daz3D frequent buyer, build the stuff myself, or both. And when you use Daz meshes or skins you have to make sure they can't be extracted by the end user. With a published game toolset, like NVN or DA, you get all the art assets they used to create the game (plus any created by modders).

There are other engines with similar terms - Torque seems to be a popular one, but everything I read says their code is a mess. I may have been dreaming, because I can't find it now, but I thought one major engine just opened up an indie team license for $2500.


Edit: rechecked UDK's license - it's 25% of revenue over $5000. So even if you don't make dollar one in profit, you can still be up to your neck in owed royalties. No thank you.

Modifié par mouser9169, 18 octobre 2010 - 09:09 .

[0x30A88]

mouser9169 wrote...
The same could be said for Counterstrike 

But what can't you don with the Source engine. CS was a game mod, but was released as a game on it's own by VALVe.

[mouser9169]

Gisle Aune wrote...
You have a lot of power, you can make it so only the hard-coded GUI is what's left of DA:O - But still it's just a game mod, not a game on it's own.

I think this is the final selling point. I checked the lexicon and wiki, and you can even completely redo the combat system if you want - and since the scripting is C based, that sort of stuff would transfer over fairly easily to a C/C++ engine.

Not that I would make changes like that right away. A village, an outdoor area, a dungeon. Get it working and released. Playtested and debugged. Then slowly build one step at a time.

I disagree with the sentiment that "you can write or you can't" or "you have good ideas or you don't". Those are skills that can be learned (just google "writing workshop") through practice or instruction. Game design is not some natural instinct we inherited from our hunter/gatherer forebears - though playing games may be

I'm trying to get an account on rpgcodex to get some other views, but my isp puts me through a proxy, and they don't like proxies... Hopefully I'll have an account there soon.

Now just counting the days till the "ultimate edition" is released...

[Dallo]

mouser9169 wrote...

I disagree with the sentiment that "you can write or you can't" or "you have good ideas or you don't". Those are skills that can be learned (just google "writing workshop") through practice or instruction. Game design is not some natural instinct we inherited from our hunter/gatherer forebears - though playing games may be

*shrugs*   It's my opinion, based on a reasonable amount of experience.

Hard work is key, without a doubt, but whilst one can arrive at a good understanding of what is possible with the available tools there is still that ineffable and requisite 'something'...   Creativity is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration, it's often said, and I agree   You can sweat all you like but without that 1%, however, not much worthwhile is going to happen.

What can be learned is technique.  Obviously very important, but still...

[olivier leroux]

Dallo wrote...

mouser9169 wrote...
I disagree with the sentiment that "you can write or you can't" or "you have good ideas or you don't". Those are skills that can be learned (just google "writing workshop") through practice or instruction. Game design is not some natural instinct we inherited from our hunter/gatherer forebears - though playing games may be

*shrugs*   It's my opinion, based on a reasonable amount of experience.
...

I think the truth lies somewhere in between. While it's quite possible that some people may never reach the same level of creativity than others, I'm suspicious of the claim that "either you can write or can't". IMO it is in part learned by experience, too. Noone is born a writer but writers often read a lot. And they're critical and rework their stories until they're good. It's illusory for someone to think they have it all in themselves and the first thing they write is already perfect. I think the people who "can't write" just don't realize what it takes to be a writer and that it's actually hard work.

[mouser9169]

olivier leroux wrote...

Dallo wrote...

mouser9169 wrote...
I disagree with the sentiment that "you can write or you can't" or "you have good ideas or you don't". Those are skills that can be learned (just google "writing workshop") through practice or instruction. Game design is not some natural instinct we inherited from our hunter/gatherer forebears - though playing games may be

*shrugs*   It's my opinion, based on a reasonable amount of experience.
...

I think the truth lies somewhere in between. While it's quite possible that some people may never reach the same level of creativity than others, I'm suspicious of the claim that "either you can write or can't". IMO it is in part learned by experience, too. Noone is born a writer but writers often read a lot. And they're critical and rework their stories until they're good. It's illusory for someone to think they have it all in themselves and the first thing they write is already perfect. I think the people who "can't write" just don't realize what it takes to be a writer and that it's actually hard work.

I think you've nailed it.  And it's not even just "writing".  In a game, you're writing a branched tree conversation, which is very different than writing an essay, a thesis, or even a short story or novel. The same thing goes for a lot of other parts of game design: level building, balancing appropriate challenges and rewards, and then making the whole thing FUN.

It's a skill. And even if I've "got it", I still wouldn't expect to put out quality (read: stuff that people would pay money for) games without having gone through the process many times - making a lot of games from total garbage to pretty ok along the way.

Even recognized prodigies in fields like music or chess have to put in years of hard work before they begin to reach their potential.


In any case - after looking through the Dragon Age lexicon and some wiki's, I think this is the best I can hope for. Just about everything is scripted - I can even redo the combat system if I feel like it.  UDK is tempting, buy without the source code (which is still a very hefty license fee) there's a lot that can't be changed. That along with all the art assets ruled it out.

But I think it's great for indie gaming that Epic did put it out there. There are a lot of people who don't need or want full source code access, and are very fluent with Milkshape or Blender, and for them that might be a perfect solution - you've even got the Unreal name to help sell your game.

[-Semper-]

mouser9169 wrote...

Edit: rechecked UDK's license - it's 25% of revenue over $5000. So even if you don't make dollar one in profit, you can still be up to your neck in owed royalties. No thank you.

you are talking about practicing and therefore you could license the udk for free as long as your project is noncommercial!

[mouser9169]

-Semper- wrote...

mouser9169 wrote...

Edit: rechecked UDK's license - it's 25% of revenue over $5000. So even if you don't make dollar one in profit, you can still be up to your neck in owed royalties. No thank you.

you are talking about practicing and therefore you could license the udk for free as long as your project is noncommercial!

As tempting as the UDK is, and it is tempting, it comes without assets. Which means I have to either buy or build them - neither of which appeals to me at this point. I'm sure I could find some floating around for free, but not enough to depend on.

That's the single biggest "selling point" of using a published game's toolset: you get all the assets they used when they made the game (plus any released by the "community")

[Dallo]

mouser9169 wrote...

It's a skill.

No, it's a talent.  If you put in enough hard work along the way - and I did say 99% perspiration -  then that latent talent becomes honed by skill/technique to perhaps reach its full potential sometimes.

What you and Olivier are suggesting is that anybody, given time and hard work, can excell in anything.  It simply isn't true. 

[mouser9169]

Dallo wrote...

mouser9169 wrote...

It's a skill.

No, it's a talent.  If you put in enough hard work along the way - and I did say 99% perspiration -  then that latent talent becomes honed by skill/technique to perhaps reach its full potential sometimes.

What you and Olivier are suggesting is that anybody, given time and hard work, can excell in anything.  It simply isn't true. 

I'll say this and let it drop: Go into a large bookstore like a Borders or Barnes & Noble. Look at the thousands of currently published authors. Do you really believe that every one of them is a "gifted" writer? Or did some of them simple work hard enough to gain enough skill and techique to be published?

I'm not saying anyone can become world class elite at whatever they want, but most people can become very proficient (read: good enough to earn money or recognition) at something if they work hard enough at it. Often times that 99% perspiration creates the 1% inspiration.

On a "back on topic" note: How stable is the DA toolset now.
I've read a lot of reports that it's buggy/crashes/can't connect to the database - has that been fixed?

[TimelordDC]

It is very stable - I've had only a couple of crashes and that's only when doing complex cutscenes.



As for the database connectivity issue, that's really a Microsoft problem and it will rear it's head every now and then.

[Proleric]

Yes, the DAO toolset is very stable. The community bug list gives workarounds for the known issues - there are no showstoppers AFAIK.