172 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

I vaguely recall that you are a Cerberus supporter.



This renders you unable to argue about the moral value of human test subjects. Or any test subjects really.

[mosor]

Nightwriter wrote...

Even then it's a little severe, seeing as how all we really know he did for sure is experiment on some krogan volunteers and one human of indeterminate origin and lifestyle. Very wrong, but execution-worthy? The kid is confused. And crazy.

Maelon's no kid, and my Shepard has killed people for less serious reasons:P

[Nightwriter]

Yes but your Shepard is different, he's all right.

[Christmas Ape]

Nightwriter wrote...
I vaguely recall that you are a Cerberus supporter.
This renders you unable to argue about the moral value of human test subjects. Or any test subjects really.

I presume you're directing that at me? I didn't raise any question of their moral validity - you suggested there was only one. That's either "I didn't see it it's not real", or simply garbage writing.

But for the record, intent means a lot. Enhancing human defensive readiness in regards to extra-solar strategic realities is one thing. Unleashing a million-strong clan of krogan hellbent on revenge and empire is another entirely.

[mosor]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
I vaguely recall that you are a Cerberus supporter.
This renders you unable to argue about the moral value of human test subjects. Or any test subjects really.

I presume you're directing that at me? I didn't raise any question of their moral validity - you suggested there was only one. That's either "I didn't see it it's not real", or simply garbage writing.

But for the record, intent means a lot. Enhancing human defensive readiness in regards to extra-solar strategic realities is one thing. Unleashing a million-strong clan of krogan hellbent on revenge and empire is another entirely.

Maelon is an alien harming humans to help other aliens, the consequences of which may harm even more humans. Pefectly valid reason for a pro-cerberus humanist to be shocked and appalled enough to pull the trigger themselves.

Modifié par mosor, 17 octobre 2010 - 05:55 .

[Foolsfolly]

I usually save him. Don't know why... Never gave it much thought.



I do wish there was an option to arrest him. He should pay for his crimes but Mordin shouldn't kill him. He has enough regrets in his life, killing a former student would just add to that.

[Nightwriter]

Christmas Ape wrote...

I presume you're directing that at me? I didn't raise any question of their moral validity - you suggested there was only one. That's either "I didn't see it it's not real", or simply garbage writing.

But for the record, intent means a lot. Enhancing human defensive readiness in regards to extra-solar strategic realities is one thing. Unleashing a million-strong clan of krogan hellbent on revenge and empire is another entirely.

I am given no evidence to believe I shouldn't think there were more test subjects. There likely were. If there was only one I can't imagine he'd be left lying in a stairwell. Strike that, I can't imagine why any test subject would be left lying in a stairwell.

I think Cerberus sympathizers should try to understand Maelon more, you actually have much in common. 

- You both kill with the excuse it will save more lives in the future.
- You both run nasty tests on people.
- You are both seen as dangerous and possibly crazy.
- You both do bad things and claim it's for good reasons.
- You are both radical thinkers.
- You both conduct experiments that at first glance look totally destructive and unjustified.
- You both argue consequentialism.
- You both broke off from the group you used to belong to and went rogue.
- For all your madness, you have both made great strides in medical science and bio-engineering.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 17 octobre 2010 - 06:12 .

[mosor]

Nightwriter wrote...

I think Cerberus sympathizers should try to understand Maelon more, you actually have much in common. 

- You both kill with the excuse it will save more lives in the future.
- You both run nasty tests on people.
- You are both seen as dangerous and possibly crazy.
- You both do bad things and claim it's for good reasons.
- You are both radical thinkers.
- You both conduct experiments that at first glance look totally destructive and unjustified.
- You both argue consequentialism.
- You both broke off from the group you used to belong to and went rogue.
- For all your madness, you have both made great strides in medical science and bio-engineering.

Nice job on the list. Too bad I hate competitors.

[Count Viceroy]

Similarities like that are irrelevant when you look at what he's trying to do. Curing the genophage is baaad for the whole universe and it's even worse for any cerberus supporter who has grand visions of humanity rising to the top, as they'll be crushed under a krogan boot.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 17 octobre 2010 - 06:13 .

[Nightwriter]

I really think you need to look at what's likely in terms of what the writers will do.

The writers look like they want to have Wrex rally the krogan, which means a new krogan empire that can actually behave itself.  The genophage may be instrumental to that end.

But are we talking about the decision to kill Maelon, or the decision to keep or destroy the genophage?

[Count Viceroy]

Nightwriter wrote...

But are we talking about the decision to kill Maelon, or the decision to keep or destroy the genophage?

Isn't that by extension the same thing? By allowing Maelon to live you're giving him the chance to set up shop somewhere else. And I think it's a sure bet there will be clans just lining up to continue where werlock left off. (sp?)

And yes I'm under the suspicion that one of the major choices in Me3 will be wether to unshackle the krogan or not, they'd help immensly against the reapers but it could do a lot of harm later down the road. This is why my shepard keeps the data, if someones going to do it later, it'll be me.

I think we're thinking too highly of wrex. Like some of the other krogan say (think its the mechanic) If it works it works, if it doesn't someone else will kill him and step up with some other idea. Power on tuchanka is a fleeting thing it seems.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 17 octobre 2010 - 06:27 .

[tommyt_1994]

Nightwriter wrote...

I really think you need to look at what's likely in terms of what the writers will do.

The writers look like they want to have Wrex rally the krogan, which means a new krogan empire that can actually behave itself.  The genophage may be instrumental to that end.

But are we talking about the decision to kill Maelon, or the decision to keep or destroy the genophage?

I'd like to discuss whether or not to destroy the genophage, but not here someone can create a new thread for that. Lets keep this focused on Maelon please.

Someone said that Mordin will lock Maelon will be locked out of the STG, does he actually say this or is this an assumption? Mordin is no longer and STG member.

Modifié par tommyt_1994, 17 octobre 2010 - 06:24 .

[Dave of Canada]

Nightwriter wrote...

- You are both seen as dangerous and possibly crazy.

I take offense to this!

[Inquisitor Recon]

I like the krogan and the crazy part of me wanted Maelon to continue his little quest.

[mosor]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

But are we talking about the decision to kill Maelon, or the decision to keep or destroy the genophage?

Isn't that by extension the same thing? By allowing Maelon to live you're giving him the chance to set up shop somewhere else. And I think it's a sure bet there will be clans just lining up to take werlock left off. (sp?)

And yes I'm under the suspicion that one of the major choices in Me3 will be wether to unshackle the krogan or not, they'd help immensly agains the reapers but it could do a lot of harm later down the road.

I think we're thinking too highly of wrex. Like some of the other krogan say (think its the mechanic) If it works it works, if it doesn't someone else will kill him and step up with some other idea. Power on tuchanka is a fleeting thing it seems.

That's assuming Wrex is even alive *Shuffles his feet*. Regardless curing the genophage is a bad idea even if the Krogan become as peaceful as asari. Their long life spans plus high birth rate will overcrowd the galaxy really fast. Curing the genophage wont create more krogan to fight the reapers. They'll fight because they want to survive, and...because....they like to kill big things.

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

You are a despicable meta-gamer!

Dave of Canada wrote...

I take offense to this!

[mosor]

Aww Nightwriter, you found something Maelon can experiment on that can't do calculus! An another one for us pro-Cerberus types too!

[Nightwriter]

Neither Cerberus nor Maelon shall get any puppies. I mean I've seen what Cerberus does with kittens.

Count Viceroy wrote...

Isn't that by extension the same thing? By allowing Maelon to live you're giving him the chance to set up shop somewhere else. And I think it's a sure bet there will be clans just lining up to continue where werlock left off. (sp?)

But… but again… the conversation you have with Mordin…

He says there won’t be a repeat, because krogan highly disapprove of any clans working with the salarians. And krogan “disapprove” with grenade launchers. Weyrloc was an anomaly.

Count Viceroy wrote...

I think we're thinking too highly of wrex. Like some of the other krogan say (think its the mechanic) If it works it works, if it doesn't someone else will kill him and step up with some other idea. Power on tuchanka is a fleeting thing it seems.

Well of course we're thinking too highly of him. He's Wrex.

Of course he can take the krogan in hand. He's Wrex. This logic is infallible.

[Praetor Knight]

If Wrex is a Vanguard and if he has the biotic charge capability then only old age can do him in.



Only Shep with Grunt have killed a thresher maw on Tuchanka, so what does Wrex have to fear?



Wrex already ignored Maelon and has at least some 300 galactic years left in him, so once the reapers are an after thought who knows how the krogan will fare?



Poor Maelon has less then 15 years to reverse the genophage by himself.



And he is very behind no matter how good Maelon's memory is without his controversial research, right?

[AntiChri5]

Yes Shandepard, BioWare spends all their time conspiring against you......



Or maybe.......just maybe.......you are wrong.......

[Christmas Ape]

Nightwriter wrote...

Christmas Ape wrote...
I presume you're directing that at me? I didn't raise any question of their moral validity - you suggested there was only one. That's either "I didn't see it it's not real", or simply garbage writing.
But for the record, intent means a lot. Enhancing human defensive readiness in regards to extra-solar strategic realities is one thing. Unleashing a million-strong clan of krogan hellbent on revenge and empire is another entirely.

I am given no evidence to believe I shouldn't think there were more test subjects. There likely were. If there was only one I can't imagine he'd be left lying in a stairwell. Strike that, I can't imagine why any test subject would be left lying in a stairwell.

Fair enough on all counts. But the fact you discuss only one human subject was mentioned in your defence as "all we know for certain". What we know for certain is he was conducting medical experiments for which humans form a good reference group as a result of a broader bellcurve of genetic predispositions (but let's not start that whole thing again). If you're using humans for "diversity", you're not just using one. It's disingenuous.

I think Cerberus sympathizers should try to understand Maelon more, you actually have much in common.

- You both kill with the excuse it will save more lives in the future.
- You both run nasty tests on people.
- You are both seen as dangerous and possibly crazy.
- You both do bad things and claim it's for good reasons.
- You are both radical thinkers.
- You both conduct experiments that at first glance look totally destructive and unjustified.
- You both argue consequentialism.
- You both broke off from the group you used to belong to and went rogue.
- For all your madness, you have both made great strides in medical science and bio-engineering.

Who said I don't understand him? Who said that's not exactly why Cerberus sympathizers would want him shot? I don't think "But he's your Evil Twin*!" is a good argument in favor of sparing him.

* For those values of Evil equal to "antithetical to your primary motivation".

[AdamNW]

I killed him out of sympathy...I think. I can't remember this mission very well because every time I've played it something different happened.

[Nightwriter]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Fair enough on all counts. But the fact you discuss only one human subject was mentioned in your defence as "all we know for certain". What we know for certain is he was conducting medical experiments for which humans form a good reference group as a result of a broader bellcurve of genetic predispositions (but let's not start that whole thing again). If you're using humans for "diversity", you're not just using one. It's disingenuous.

It's likely he experimented on more than one.
It is fact that all we have seen is one.

You can let yourself be swayed by evidence or likely assumption. It is a conscious choice.

Those who assume there were more must acknowledge the evidence doesn't support it.

Those who say there was only one we ever see must accept that they are disregarding the overwhelming likelihood to the contrary.

Christmas Ape wrote...

Who said I don't understand him? Who said that's not exactly why Cerberus sympathizers would want him shot? I don't think "But he's your Evil Twin*!" is a good argument in favor of sparing him.

* For those values of Evil equal to "antithetical to your primary motivation".

Your confusion probably comes from the fact that the post wasn't particularly directed at you.

Also: I would hate to see Cerberus's evil twin. We'd all be doomed. Doomed.