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[Christmas Ape]

Nightwriter wrote...

Christmas Ape wrote...
Fair enough on all counts. But the fact you discuss only one human subject was mentioned in your defence as "all we know for certain". What we know for certain is he was conducting medical experiments for which humans form a good reference group as a result of a broader bellcurve of genetic predispositions (but let's not start that whole thing again). If you're using humans for "diversity", you're not just using one. It's disingenuous.

It's likely he experimented on more than one.
It is fact that all we have seen is one.
You can let yourself be swayed by evidence or likely assumption. It is a conscious choice.
Those who assume there were more must acknowledge the evidence doesn't support it.
Those who say there was only one we ever see must accept that they are disregarding the overwhelming likelihood to the contrary.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, if I may be so trite.
This logic extends seemlessly into arguing the entire Human-Reaper construct at the time of its destruction could have been made up wholly of the one person you see dissolve in the pod. You never see anyone else get processed, you have only a single uncorroborated source that says others were.

Your confusion probably comes from the fact that the post wasn't particularly directed at you.

I was probably thrown off by its seamless inclusion as the second half of a post which was directed at me. Also, your general conversational style in the forums appears constructed to generate confusion, changing gears between flippancy and discussion without notice and rarely clearly directing them at specific users even when joining an ongoing conversation. It's your right to do so, but you can hardly be surprised when it works.

Modifié par Christmas Ape, 17 octobre 2010 - 07:23 .

[jwalker]

All my Sheps stop Mordin, paragons, renegades, paragades, renegons.

He doesn't want to kill Maelon. His reasoning, twisted as it may be, is pushing him into it. It's not like Garrus. Garrus really wants to kill Sidonis.
Or Jack killing Aresh, she's not trying to change. Killing is just a reflex.

But for Mordin is different. Mordin is really atoning for his past. A past he's trying to leave behind. It's really moving all the conversation with him looking at the dead female krogan. Killing Maelon is a backtrack, he doesn't need more guilt.
Later on, he tells how grateful and honoured he is for helping Shepard in his/her mission. It seems like for the first time in a long time his reasoning, his logic, his heart and conscience are not in conflict.

And I don't think is about the genophage either. You can destroy all research data. As for Maelon restarting his work, not likely to happen right away. Anyway, if given the choice, probably my ultra-uber jerkshep might execute Maelon him/herself. If that choice is not in the game is for the writers laziness. Shepard seems completely capable of executing someone in cold blood. Hell, Shepard can kill Samara with no good reason, out of the blue, but somehow (s)he can't kill Maelon...

No, Mordin doesn't kill Maelon. He's had enough.

[Nightwriter]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, if I may be so trite.
This logic extends seemlessly into arguing the entire Human-Reaper construct at the time of its destruction could have been made up wholly of the one person you see dissolve in the pod. You never see anyone else get processed, you have only a single uncorroborated source that says others were.

Look, I feel like we're digressing into one of those really pointless avenues of debate that neither of us really cares about yet continue to participate in seemingly out of instinct.

What I'm trying to say is that what I felt for Maelon was pity and disapproval, and that if I had actually seen more human bodies, or perhaps a human body done up like David, that would totally change for the worse. Instead I got the feeling that the absence of these things indicated the writers didn't want us to see Maelon as a total monster exactly - just a kid who saw too much and did too much in response. Someone who needs to be stopped, but not crucified.

Christmas Ape wrote...

I was probably thrown off by its seamless inclusion as the second half of a post which was directed at me. Also, your general conversational style in the forums appears constructed to generate confusion, changing gears between flippancy and discussion without notice and rarely clearly directing them at specific users even when joining an ongoing conversation. It's your right to do so, but you can hardly be surprised when it works.

Gimme a break, it's late and I was responding to several people at once on that page. I thought that addressing all Cerberus sympathizers in regards to the list would make people see it was directed broadly.

Also your description of my forum behavior strangely... tickles me.

[Purge the heathens]

Well, Maelon got his access to the data revoked and without a sponsor like clan Weyrloc, he'll be hard pressed to get funds, equipment and test subjects. It's also not entirely unreasonable to think that the STG will keep an eye on him and, if necessary, even do what Shepard kept Mordin from doing. It's also mentioned that his credibility is destroyed: without the data, he has nothing to prove to other possible sponsors that he could cure the genophage.

[AntiChri5]

Yeah, let's set free the guy who nearly cured the genophage. Brilliant plan. What could go wrong?



Answer: nothing becuase for this to happen to you have to take a paragon interrupt and anything associated with paragon turns out for the best.

I said earlier that i kill Maelon as well.

And Elnora still says hello.

[Pacifien]

Maelon does have knowledge that the genophage was modified because the krogan were overcoming its effects, though. He can't really prove it, but he can get the conspiracy rolling. Which actually lends credence to the idea the STG would simply finish off what Shepard prevented Mordin from doing. At that point, you can take everything Mordin said at face value, that simply cutting off Maelon's access will be the end of it. Or you can start adding layers to give the entire incident more dimension.

[Christmas Ape]

Nightwriter wrote...
Look, I feel like we're digressing into one of those really pointless avenues of debate that neither of us really cares about yet continue to participate in seemingly out of instinct.

Yeah, that seems about right.

What I'm trying to say is that what I felt for Maelon was pity and disapproval, and that if I had actually seen more human bodies, or perhaps a human body done up like David, that would totally change for the worse. Instead I got the feeling that the absence of these things indicated the writers didn't want us to see Maelon as a total monster exactly - just a kid who saw too much and did too much in response. Someone who needs to be stopped, but not crucified.

Contrarily, I felt like one was considered enough to make their case that human experimentation was going on, and via a method that would need substantial numbers, and showing more corpses would have just been belaboring the point.

]Gimme a break, it's late and I was responding to several people at once on that page. I thought that addressing all Cerberus sympathizers in regards to the list would make people see it was directed broadly.

Not an accusation, merely an observation. I read "You, as a Cerberus sympathizer, should try to understand Maelon more".

Also your description of my forum behavior strangely... tickles me.

Glad I could give you a cheap thrill.

[Pacifien]

If you're really only directing your comments to one person, can you take it to PM? Thanks.

[Count Viceroy]

Shandepared wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

I said earlier that i kill Maelon as well.
And Elnora still says hello.

How does Elnora even compare? She's a petty merc who lies about having killed someone. She's not a threat to galactic stability, her continued existence doesn't threaten war.

In any case, 50 dollars says she'll turn up in ME3 genuinely repetent and sorry about ever wanting to join Eclipse and she'll thank you for your mercy that day.

Of course, that's how Paragons roll. They are above fault and consequence. They shouldn't be, but Bioware has spoken.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 17 octobre 2010 - 08:11 .

[Nightwriter]

The green letters follow me everywhere, everywhere.

Christmas Ape wrote...

Contrarily, I felt like one was considered enough to make their case that human experimentation was going on, and via a method that would need substantial numbers, and showing more corpses would have just been belaboring the point.

Christmas Ape, it's fine if you think he tested a large number of humans. There's nothing to deny it. If you feel it's right to think that, think it.

Myself, I feel Maelon did much wrong, but I wouldn't kill him. I can't kill a totally powerless former-threat, especially one who's young and kind of crazy.

[Count Viceroy]

Nightwriter wrote...

Myself, I feel Maelon did much wrong, but I wouldn't kill him. I can't kill a totally powerless former-threat, especially one who's young and kind of crazy.

This makes you a nice person but a terribad spectre.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 17 octobre 2010 - 08:11 .

[Phaedon]

mosor wrote...

Maelon dies in my  playthroughs. Lots of people here want to kill TIM for experimenting on humans. Maelon did the same, humans and aliens. He needs to pay for his crimes. Letting him go free isn't an option.

Sure, his experiments were brutal, but can you really blame him ? Instead of the ascension of any race, he just wants to fix what they have caused. I try to stay neutral towards the genophage (It was necessary, but don't expect me to approve it), but I don't think that he is a criminal.

[GodWood]

Phaedon wrote...
I don't think that he is a criminal.

He is a criminal.

[AntiChri5]

How does Elnora even compare? She's a petty merc who lies about having killed someone. She's not a threat to galactic stability, her continued existence doesn't threaten war.

Elnora is a clear case where the Paragon path is incorrect and punished rather then rewarded.

In any case, 50 dollars says she'll turn up in ME3 genuinely repetent and sorry about ever wanting to join Eclipse and she'll thank you for your mercy that day.

I bloody hope not. Elnora should team up with Balak and burn down an orphanage full of the children of those orphaned by the heroic deaths of humanities greatest heroes.

[tommyt_1994]

AntiChri5 wrote...


I bloody hope not. Elnora should team up with Balak and burn down an orphanage full of the children of those orphaned by the heroic deaths of humanities greatest heroes.

That's pretty sadistic lol but I think I get the point you were making. Paragon decisions need to start actually backfiring 

[Nightwriter]

Count Viceroy wrote...

This makes you a nice person but a terribad spectre.

Not really. He's not a threat anymore. I think they make that pretty clear.

And it's not like I encourage Mordin to cure the genophage or something.

[Spectre_907]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

Someone said that Mordin will lock Maelon will be locked out of the STG, does he actually say this or is this an assumption? Mordin is no longer and STG member.

Assumption. Mordin only says that STG are good at covering tracks. No proof, thus preventing any truth behind Maelon's claim that there was a modified genophage project should Maelon try to tell anyone. Also says that restarting the research will could take decades of work if Maelon begins from scratch.

As for the topic: I let Maelon live out of sympathy. He looked up to Mordin and had a major crisis of faith. He didn't deserve to die for it.

[Phaedon]

GodWood wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
I don't think that he is a criminal.

He is a criminal.

Ok, let me rephrase that. He is not necessarily a bad guy.

[Count Viceroy]

Nightwriter wrote...

Count Viceroy wrote...

This makes you a nice person but a terribad spectre.

Not really. He's not a threat anymore. I think they make that pretty clear.

And it's not like I encourage Mordin to cure the genophage or something.

How is he not a threat? He has explicit knowledge in the works and possible cure of the genophage and has shown that he's fully capable of setting aside any moral qualms in order to cure it. So what if mordin bans his access to the data stg had, he probably has everything he needs already. If anyone else would get ahold of maelon they could easily continue his work.

Bioware haven written themselves into a corner here. On one hand, krogan everwhere are obssessed with the 'phage and how it affects and debilitates their society and their struggle to overcome it but if you go the paragon route they then claim that clan Werlock is unique, calling it an anomaly that they would be the only clan willing to find a way to cure it. BS, goes against everything we know about the krogan, it's like it was written to pat a paragon on the back, not to make sense.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 17 octobre 2010 - 08:44 .

[GodWood]

Phaedon wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
I don't think that he is a criminal.

He is a criminal.

Ok, let me rephrase that. He is not necessarily a bad guy.

He is a bad guy.

[Phaedon]

GodWood wrote...
He is a bad guy.

Hmm... I don't know. I understand what you mean, but what STG did wasn't exactly good as well.

[GodWood]

Phaedon wrote...

GodWood wrote...
He is a bad guy.

Hmm... I don't know. I understand what you mean, but what STG did wasn't exactly good as well.

The STG chose the best possible solution.

[Spectre_907]

Spectre_907 wrote...

Assumption. Mordin only says that STG are good at covering tracks. No proof, thus preventing any truth behind Maelon's claim that there was a modified genophage project should Maelon try to tell anyone. Also says that restarting the research will could take decades of work if Maelon begins from scratch.

Correction: Mordin does say STG will lock the modified genophage data to prevent future access.