303 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

And what if in ME3 Vido shows up again, thereby gifting paragon players with extra content?

Would you still feel the scales were equal?

Purely as an example, of course, I doubt they'll do any substantial follow-up content for DLC decisions.

[Tony Gunslinger]

Arijharn wrote...

Your mileage my vary of course, but I would list the fact that sacrificing the workers on zorya to ensure Zaeed's loyalty as the epitome of bad direction that only really serves to give renegade's a disadvantage. Consider:
1) Sacrificing the workers means you do not get the Heavy Weapon Ammo upgrade
2) I'm less certain of this (it's been a while) but you do not get as many mineral pick ups
3) A paragon player can get the full ammo pick up and the minerals and get Zaeed's loyalty without sacrificing anything. What has the Renegade gotten other than the shaft in this instance?

I do not think the choice between a paragon and renegade should basically alter flavour text only, I do not believe that a renegade or paragon should get the same things at all, what they should get are equal things (like for example; instead of getting Heavy Skin Weave, perhaps he gets another upgrade of roughly similiar 'weighting' like a Weapon upgrade?).

Like mentioned before, the renegade choice gets you an AR upgrade, it is also harder to gain Zaeed's loyalty if you chose paragon, so I don't think that's a good example of a renegade being punished. We need another example.

[tallinn]

Arijharn wrote...

Than what's the point of even offering a damn choice in the first place in a game if it only ever rewards half the people who chose option A over the other half who don't chose it?

Does that make sense? If you want to be a good guy and save kittens and get rewarded with a blueberry muffin then all the power to you, but if I do certain 'kick ass' things I want to be rewarded occasionally with a meat pie. Does that make more sense?

Well, from a gamer perspective it may make sense. From a story writer perspective it would not. Not every action leads to a plausible "reward".

Two renegade actions I think that are very well rewarded are in the Archangel mission and in IIRC Mordins loyalty mission. Paragons have a harder life here. And what about the Jack casual sex encounter? Some guy may find this more "rewarding" :-)

On the other some renegade actions are utterly useless and dumb, mainly killing people one does not have to kill to get along. IIRC there is an occasion in the Thane mission where you may kick a mercenary through the window. At that point in the conversation where the renegade interrupt shows up it makes absolutely no sense to perform it.

[Nightwriter]

Do y'all consider it renegade to sell Legion to Cerberus?

[Flamewielder]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'm against any roleplay system in which one path virtually always comes out fine and best, while other paths can fail/be detrimental in outcome and content.

I have nothing against Paragon decisions being rewarded, and sometimes being rewarded more for greater risks. The Rachni is a good decision point. But I am against Paragon decisions always being rewarded, regardless the risk, and equally or greater than Renegade choices.

To date, there have been... maybe one decision, keeping the Collector Base, to which the Renegade decision might be better... or might not, as plenty of people have voiced expectations that keeping the base is traded off by losing equivalent support from the Council races. In which case it's a zero-net-sum gain.

I agree with Dean, that a fully-supported Renegade option should be balanced with the Paragon one, at least in terms of content. Every once in a while, a paragon choice should bite you in the nether regions.

Everyone will agree that Renegades, as defined by the rules of the game, sacrifice ethical considerations in favor of immediate results. But ethical considerations also imply sacrifices from both Shepard's and the galaxy's perspective.

[snfonseka]

If the game presents three options....
1. Let go the criminal because you believe that he is going to be a "good guy" after the encounter with you (Paragon)
2. Arrest the criminal and prevent any further disaster from him.
3. Kill the criminal for the deeds he has done and prevent any further disaster from him (Renegade).

If ME gives me the second option, I will gladly choose that one. But since ME doesn't provide that option I will go for the Renegade option. Because I don't think my Shepard is naive enough to be a blind optimistic.....

Modifié par snfonseka, 19 octobre 2010 - 01:46 .

[chris025657]

Flamewielder wrote...

I agree with Dean, that a fully-supported Renegade option should be balanced with the Paragon one, at least in terms of content. Every once in a while, a paragon choice should bite you in the nether regions.

Everyone will agree that Renegades, as defined by the rules of the game, sacrifice ethical considerations in favor of immediate results. But ethical considerations also imply sacrifices from both Shepard's and the galaxy's perspective.

Renegade is not about about sacrificing ethical considerations in favor of immediate results. It's more about doing whatever is necessary in the name of the greater good. Renegade decisions shouldn't be inherently unethical or short sided. The renegade decision of killing the Rachni queen, for example, was not for immediate results, it was done for the potential threat they posed to long-term stability of the galaxy. 

Nightwriter wrote...
Do y'all consider it renegade to sell Legion to Cerberus?

Why would anyone sell Legion? He's a Geth that had already shown that he wants to fight the Reapers. Given the networking of the Geth having them as allies could be very useful against the Reapers. Plus, he does the robot while beatboxing. That alone should be reason enough to keep him for renegades and paragons. 

[Pacifien]

Flamewielder wrote...
I agree with Dean, that a fully-supported Renegade option should be balanced with the Paragon one, at least in terms of content. Every once in a while, a paragon choice should bite you in the nether regions.

What are we balancing it with, though? More emails? Cameos that provide nothing to the story other than "this is where they end up?"

Though I do agree if the developers went through the trouble to acknowledge all those paragon decisions with those types of tidbits, it would have been fair to acknowledge the renegade ones somehow. Get an email from the next proprietor of Chora's Den saying "Hey, thanks for killing Fist."

[Slayer299]

jbblue05 wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...

[@jbbblue - a drug dealer trying to kill them? You're kidding me...right? Elnora killed a greedy Volus who was out to make a faster buck, right along with Pitni. Why would they *want* to kill the Eclipse Sisters? You make it sound as if Elnora was doing the galaxy a favor by removing a murdering, drug dealer by gunning him down with modded shotgun ammo that blew his exosuit apart.

I believe those drugs were tainted killing anyone who was exposed to it for a time.
Elnora did the galaxy a favor a corrupt merc killing a corrupt merchant.  Always a good thing when the bad guys kill each other as long as innocents aren't involved.

 
My main point is this is something that is highly unlikely to bite paragons in the ass. I doubt Elnora is dangerous as letting Balak or Vido go

Bad guys killing themselves is fine by me, but I don't think you can call them corrupt though. Dakni was a greedy and unscruplous and Elnora'd discovered her talent/love in this world...killing ad neither seemed really corrupt.

[Nightwriter]

chris025657 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
Do y'all consider it renegade to sell Legion to Cerberus?

Why would anyone sell Legion? He's a Geth that had already shown that he wants to fight the Reapers. Given the networking of the Geth having them as allies could be very useful against the Reapers. Plus, he does the robot while beatboxing. That alone should be reason enough to keep him for renegades and paragons. 

I have no idea. I've never sold him. I've heard from some renegades who have, though.

[Xilizhra]

Bad guys killing themselves is fine by me, but I don't think you can call them corrupt though. Dakni was a greedy and unscruplous and Elnora'd discovered her talent/love in this world...killing ad neither seemed really corrupt.

I should point out that the drug was, in fact, lethally poisonous and both volus knew it, without informing Eclipse. Legally, this is attempted murder, I believe.

[SimonTheFrog]

Yeah, again, as somewhere else mentioned already: why is it always letting get away or shoot. Especially in this case the police station is just around the corner. Shepard could have called in and wait 3 minutes for the cops to arrive and take Elnora in. But nooooooo we have to shoot her like the good citizens we are

[Dean_the_Young]

The Legion sell decision comes before you talk to him in the first place. (Whether you should believe him is an entirely different decision.)

Helping you out on the Derelict Reaper could have been grounded in many ways not entailing the Legion is good and opposes the Reapers. Consider the possibility that the Geth needed something from the Reaper and the husks were automatically opposing them, thus making Shepard a useful distraction to be preserved (think to Garrus's recruitment, where you get better results from the hacked YMIR mech if you shoot the Eclipse attacking it).That barrier he lowered to let you in? It was also keeping him from getting out. It could have been because the Geth were trying something to 'infiltrate' and get closer to Shepard: Legion is a geth infiltrator, after all.

About the only unique thing Legion does before the choice that can't have entirely self-serving reasons behind it is actually talk... and that doesn't mean one thing or another. Before your choice, Legion never says he wants your help, that he's here to help you, or anything that actually explicitly says he's on your side. Even when you go to wake him up, he's under fire walls and barriers from everything else.

The selling Legion decision is fundamentally a question about personal curiosity versus potential gains. If you wake Legion up you can ask it questions, but there's little chance you can re-capture it intact if it's dangerous, making it not much more than any other geth wreckage recovered. If you send it to Cerberus, the questions will still be asked (but by someone else at Cerberus), and someone finally gets the unique chance to study the circuitry and software of a completely intact geth. Which, from what we here, is a potential holy grail of anti-geth research... and the same geth you've been fighting all this time.

Or, in other words, what do you actually expect to get out of it? You don't know he's really for you/against the Reapers, as opposed to just also targetted by the Derilect Reaper's husks. You know nothing of the Geth/Heretic split.


I'll admit that, like most people, I get Legion. But, strangely enough, that's on my renegade. My paragon doesn't see the point, and trusts both Jacob and Tali's advice to not wake it.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 19 octobre 2010 - 02:59 .

[ScooterPie88]

THe only way that is theoretically "wrong" is to kill Shepard at the end or with Morinth. This is wrong because you can't continue to ME3 if you're dead and if you get Shepard killed you are either an idiot or want to see the content. I mean the face Shep makes with Morinth is priceless.

[Giggles_Manically]

I just cant believe ANYONE is dumb enough to fall for it though.



"Oh I think you can survive it shep! You are strong willed!"

"Its not like everyone over the last 300 some odd years didnt die from it!"

Shep: Ok.



<Dies>

Honestly how dumb can you be?

[Xilizhra]

Honestly, I wish Shepard could survive it. I'd be quite interested to see what happened with Morinth if she did find a lasting relationship...

[tallinn]

Xilizhra wrote...

Honestly, I wish Shepard could survive it. I'd be quite interested to see what happened with Morinth if she did find a lasting relationship...

She would be very disappointed and annoyed and would look for other ways to achieve what should have happened just by mating: kill Shephard.

Mating Morinth is a  developer joke and explains what are the consequences of making love with a black widow.

[Xilizhra]

Personally, I doubt it. The way I saw it, Morinth wasn't lying; she didn't know if Shepard would survive, but wanted her to, as having someone around who was this interesting and willing to both put up with her and keep sleeping with her would be a wonderful way to experience companionship for the first time.

[Moiaussi]

Xilizhra wrote...

Personally, I doubt it. The way I saw it, Morinth wasn't lying; she didn't know if Shepard would survive, but wanted her to, as having someone around who was this interesting and willing to both put up with her and keep sleeping with her would be a wonderful way to experience companionship for the first time.

Until he is tired but horny after a long grueling arguement and/or fight with whoever, and is not at full mental strength when they mate.... 

Russian roulette and sex are not concepts that ever go well together.....

[Xilizhra]

Granted; I hadn't thought of that.



Ah well, Shepard lives hideously dangerously all the time anyway.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

Personally, I doubt it. The way I saw it, Morinth wasn't lying; she didn't know if Shepard would survive, but wanted her to, as having someone around who was this interesting and willing to both put up with her and keep sleeping with her would be a wonderful way to experience companionship for the first time.

There's a really good chance that Morinth was lying, she's a master manipulator.

The only reason she said that Shepard could survive their melding was in hopes of him falling for it, so she could suck his soul out.

[Inquisitor Recon]

That creepy smile she does right before she kills you is proof she fooled you and she knows it!

[Xilizhra]

The only reason she said that Shepard could survive their melding was in hopes of him falling for it, so she could suck his soul out.

I guess we'll agree to disagree, then.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

ReconTeam wrote...

That creepy smile she does right before she kills you is proof she fooled you and she knows it!

Yeah... Forgot to mention the creepy sex looks she give Shepard before killing him.

[Ultai]

And the fact she's been playing people and manipulating entire towns...oh well for hundreds of years, yea I'm sure she wasn't trying to fool Shepard at all, nope.