303 réponses à ce sujet

[NYG1991]

it makes sense that paragons would have more cameos as they dont shoot people in the face as much. if you killed the rachni queen-> no rachni, council -> no council meeting.



often the renegade choice leads to shep killing the person he's interacting with or shep saying "i don't have time for this"

[Saberchic]

Elyvern wrote...
Not all content is made equal,and a decision like that just indiscriminately throws in content for the sake of throwing it in, when in actual fact it will further reinforce the tendency to see paragon as the "right decision". You cannot assume that all renegade decisions that end in killing are done out of cold-bloodedness. There is enough room to interpret a number of them as pragmatic decisions to prevent a problem from rearing its head again. That a paragon puts his trust in blind faith and turns out to be 100% correct is the issue that needs to be addressed, not punish some renegades for rational behaviour.

But it seemed to me that a lot of the probelms where people  took the Renegade option didn't necessarily have to end in bloodshed. <-- (I'm talking about the options that have the player kill someone) To me, that's the player's choice. As such, if the player kills someone, then any storyline where that deceased character would show up, ends.
I also don't think that Renegade options necessarily equate rational behavior either. Some yes, but not most. But what's wrong with having to deal with the repurcussions of those actions? I'm not saying that every family member of a victim of Shep's is going to retaliate, but I also don't think that would be a stretch either and would be a different aspect to someone's game who wanted to play Renegade. On the other hand, if Shep did kill someone who was awful, I could also see them getting a letter from some unknown, thanking them for freeing them from that jerk's tyranny. (just an example. but not every renegade-kill-option should get that either)

I do, however, agree with you on the game leading people towards a more Paragon route. I can see that. I'm still holding out for some of the Paragon options to bite me on the backside in ME3. I don't think some of the Paragon options were logical at all (nor did I follow all of them either because some of them were straight ridiculous and Shep wasn't going for Sainthood, ya know? )

Btw, I wasn't saying that I agreed with all the consequences that the poster I quoted was saying. I just meant that it would be a good change to have something like that happen because, let's face it, Renegades are usually huge jerks in the game.

edited to add last part...

Modifié par Saberchic, 17 octobre 2010 - 09:25 .

[Jabarai]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Jabarai wrote...

Would it be a stretch to imagine some of the Renegade players being quiet, unsocial wussies in real life and compensating for it in a game?

Hilarious to see people whip out their psychology degree and start analyzing. Give you some points for effort at least.

Please, don't.   I was merely suggesting Zulu_DFA that his take on the Paragon's motives didn't quite hold up. :innocent:

[doagrl]

Elyvern wrote...

doagrl wrote...

Elyvern wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

:OI think this is a GREAT idea! LOL

I guess I can see some of the points made by other posters abou t how they feel it's unfair treatment because they think content is being cut, but I'm not sure what Renegades should expect when they kill a lot of people. Because, no, the victims can't come back. But having to answer for some of their actions later on makes sense to me and would be a Renegade only feature.

Would a solution like this be viable and keep everyone happy?

Not all content is made equal,and a decision like that just indiscriminately throws in content for the sake of throwing it in, when in actual fact it will further reinforce the tendency to see paragon as the "right decision". You cannot assume that all renegade decisions that end in killing are done out of cold-bloodedness. There is enough room to interpret a number of them as pragmatic decisions to prevent a problem from rearing its head again. That a paragon puts his trust in blind faith and turns out to be 100% correct is the issue that needs to be addressed, not punish some renegades for rational behaviour.

Why do you say that it is 100% correct? 

If you save the Council you are still going to be in the same position as someone who let the Council die at the start of ME2. Your position is not better or worse it is equal and that's the major decision that you had to make in ME1.

No, a renegade's position is worse. Because the citadel races basically turns hostile against Shepard. Even if this is an issue where a paragon's choice doesn't pay out positively, it still pans out more negative for a renegade.

No one is being punished it's just that no choice is being given an edge over the other which considering this is an rpg and there is no wrong way to play it is the correct decision by Bioware. What a lot of rengades seems to want is for the game to make the Renegade decisions the "right" path rather than keeping it all fairly down the middle.

Please read the post I was making that particular point to again.

But that's really not that different from the Paragon decision because regardless of the choice that you make humanity is still looked at with suspicion by the older Council races. It's very clear when you walk around on the Wards & during Thane's loyalty mission that even if you save the Council the other races see Humans as moving in and taking over.

It's hard to understand what Renegades want to see happen in game other than what has already happened. It would be out of range for Bioware to create new and exclusive content just for Renegade playthroughs and the characters who are dead are dead so they can't come back.

So the only reasonable decision is for them to continue to play it neutral; no matter what you did with the exception of a few conversations all players are going to end up pretty much equal.

And I did read the post you were replying to my post wasn't specifically aimed at you but the overall feelings that most renegades seem to bring to these discussions.

Modifié par doagrl, 17 octobre 2010 - 09:31 .

[pf17456]

OK so you go to feed Urz a pyjack and he bites your hand off limiting you to a pistol for the rest of the game.



Rana tampered with Grunt's creation causing him to go crazy, he destroyes the Hammerhead and you have to kill him.



Helena Blake has taken over Omega and charges you 50000 credits to access the slums where Mordin is.



Fist organizes a merc group and one of your crew dies.



The Asari you help to exit the Citadel left several crates behind containing Geth



Char's new Asari wife on Tuchanka commits suicide.



Shiala, overcome by Thorian spores indoctrinates the colony on Ferros



The pregnant woman and brother in law you gave advice to on the Citadel have a stillborn and blame you. You get a threatening e mail



Turns out that Narali Bathia's corpse held the secret to resisting indoctrination.

[Nightwriter]

pf17456 wrote...

OK so you go to feed Urz a pyjack and he bites your hand off limiting you to a pistol for the rest of the game.

Rana tampered with Grunt's creation causing him to go crazy, he destroyes the Hammerhead and you have to kill him.

Helena Blake has taken over Omega and charges you 50000 credits to access the slums where Mordin is.

Fist organizes a merc group and one of your crew dies.

The Asari you help to exit the Citadel left several crates behind containing Geth

Char's new Asari wife on Tuchanka commits suicide.

Shiala, overcome by Thorian spores indoctrinates the colony on Ferros

The pregnant woman and brother in law you gave advice to on the Citadel have a stillborn and blame you. You get a threatening e mail

Turns out that Narali Bathia's corpse held the secret to resisting indoctrination.

No, no, no, these are all cases of punishing paragon decisions extravagantly and ridiculously, you need to reward renegade decisions instead.

A reward could be something as simple as running into Fist's nephew if you kill him and having a new sidequest.

[The BS Police]

Logically if you keep shooting people in the face, commiting genocide on other species, let others be killed, or are just an outright ****, of course less people are gonna ask for your help.

[Cheese Elemental]

I agree that the two morality paths are imbalanced, but rather than punish Paragons, BioWare should reward Renegades. The former has long-term benefits while the latter is more focused on the present.

[Therion942]

Why don't Renegades ever see any repercussions from their rampant murder sprees?
Even if the law can't touch you, surely all those people you ventilated had friends.
It hurts my non-existent paragon feelings that nobody is seeking to bring you to justice.
Saren even had more trouble than Renegade Shepard does.

[upsettingshorts]

The BS Police wrote...

Logically if you keep shooting people in the face, commiting genocide on other species, let others be killed, or are just an outright ****, of course less people are gonna ask for your help.

But it isn't like that.  Despite it being bad form to repost one's own comments:

Well the problem there is that I really don't think Mass Effect 1 or 2 does at all a good job at deciding what Renegade Shepard is.

Is he a coldly expedient problem solver?
If so, he ought to be rewarded for doing the smart thing as opposed to the right thing.  The reward for doing the right thing is feeling good about yourself, and having others feel good about you. Note: This is how I think he ought to be, as the right thing vs. smart thing makes forinteresting decisions.

Is he a psychopathic bad-ass who kills for sport?
If so, well... I have a hard time coming up with anything for this one. But plenty of Renegade actions in Mass Effect qualify for this label, no matter how little it makes sense for someone like that to rise to the rank of Lieutenant Commander in a civilized military force, let alone command the respect of level headed subordinates or a person like Captain Anderson.

Is he dedicated to human dominance in the galaxy?
If so, he ought to be rewarded by the end of Mass Effect 3 with just that - humanity in control of the galaxy.  The problem is this really only comes up in a small handful of major decisions (endgame of both ME1 and ME2, for example) and can't be the basis for his entire character. The downside is all the aliens hate you, but if you're roleplaying this Shepard, you don't really care about them.

Paragon Shepard however can be easily categorized:  Right makes might.  He's a good guy,he sets an example, and he still gets the job done.  He's a consistent character.  Renegade Shepard's inconsistency makes playing any of the above three options problematic, and impossible with any consistency. 

Needless to say, combined with my earlier posts it's safe to say I think Renegade Shepard has a lot of problems.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 17 octobre 2010 - 09:50 .

[DPSSOC]

doagrl wrote...
But that's really not that different from the Paragon decision because regardless of the choice that you make humanity is still looked at with suspicion by the older Council races. It's very clear when you walk around on the Wards & during Thane's loyalty mission that even if you save the Council the other races see Humans as moving in and taking over.

 
There's a fine but definitive line between resentment and hostility.

doagrl wrote...
It's hard to understand what Renegades want to see happen in game other than what has already happened. It would be out of range for Bioware to create new and exclusive content just for Renegade playthroughs and the characters who are dead are dead so they can't come back.

 
What I want, is for the choices not to be so one sided.  I know this is going to sound like whining but it's not fair with the current set up.  Name a single Renegade choice, just one, that has a positive result in ME2...I'll wait.  Now name a Paragon choice, cause I can come up with 2 off the top of my head; Rachni allies and a non-hostile Council.  I don't care about the cameos, they're a nice little extra for not putting a round through their head, what I do care about is balance.  I can deal with a few Renegade choices biting me in the ass, like the Council I'm cool with that, but in return I'd like to see a few Paragon choices biting as well.  Letting Fist lives allows him to restablish himself and he's now running a mafia style organization on Illium where he's completely untouchable.  I'm not saying every Paragon choice should turn out wrong, but it'd be nice if we actually had to think about which was the better choice rather than going, the Paragon one.

[scotchtape622]

The issue with your argument shorts, is that there is no "Renegade Shepard." There is also no "Paragon Shepard." Each Shepard is supposed to be a mix, and Bioware puts the dialogue options to fit the conversation, not to fit some sort of predetermined Shepard.

[ObserverStatus]

Talogrungi wrote...

The thing that I dislike about Paragon options (in ME1) is that they typically resulted in additional content in ME2, whereas Renegade options didn't.

• Save the Rachni in ME1, you get some continuity dialogue in ME2 on Illium.
• Support Parasini in ME1, you get a tiny sidequest and some additional dialogue in ME2.
• Spare Fist in ME1 and you get a bonus encounter in ME2.
• Spare Helena Blake in ME1 and you get a bonus encounter in ME2.
• Help people in ME1, you get a variety of thank-you mails and such.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any Renegade ME1 decisions that resulted in exclusive ME2 content.
Admittedly, it's a minor grumble in the large scheme of things, but still a valid criticism in my opinion. Bioware does seem to favour Paragons in this.

I agree, there should be a bonus mission in which you are attacked by an undead Shiala, who has been revitalized by the Thorian spores in her body after having her head blown off by shepard.

[Inquisitor Recon]

scotchtape622 wrote...

The issue with your argument shorts, is that there is no "Renegade Shepard." There is also no "Paragon Shepard." Each Shepard is supposed to be a mix, and Bioware puts the dialogue options to fit the conversation, not to fit some sort of predetermined Shepard.

Yet in order to use the renegade/paragon dialogue options later in the game, you pretty much have to be a full paragon or renegade.

[Nightwriter]

Renegades, I have the solution.

Stop killing people.

[upsettingshorts]

scotchtape622 wrote...

The issue with your argument shorts, is that there is no "Renegade Shepard." There is also no "Paragon Shepard." Each Shepard is supposed to be a mix, and Bioware puts the dialogue options to fit the conversation, not to fit some sort of predetermined Shepard.

I disagree.  The presence of the Paragon/Renegade scoring system and cutoffs for the ability to use such dialogue options relies on choosing a particular path.

In order to have access to all the options without significantly metagaming the system or cheating, the player must be consistent.  As a result, I am justified in making the argument that Renegade Shepard is wildly inconsistent.  Paragon Shepard doesn't seem to have nearly the same issues.

In my opinion Paragon Shepard is a consistent character, even if the player takes small liberties with what that particular label means to them.

But Renegade Shepard's motivations and actions are inconsistent to the point that they do not constitute a believable character.  For reasons stated in my previous post.

Nightwriter wrote...

Renegades, I have the solution.

Stop killing people.

I don't mostly.  I cheat to max out my Paragon and Renegade options, and then am mostly Paragon but take as many "coldly expedient" Ruthless options as I feel a reasonably objective "good guy" would in my estimation.  But I am forced to change the rules of the game in order to do that.  Otherwise constructing such a character would be impossible.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 17 octobre 2010 - 10:26 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

Nightwriter wrote...

Renegades, I have the solution.

Stop killing people.

Killing people works. It's how things get done. I hope the geth betray you.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

Considering that the default opening (i.e. if you play Mass Effetc 2 and don't play Mass Effect 1) is basically the direct continuation of the "renegade" ending (I know you can also sacrifice the Council and still be a paragon but the opening, dialogue, and consequences are all still the same), I don't the think Renegades were forgotten, they got the default opening and everyone on the Citadel thinking that Shepard and humanity are big bunch of jerks who used the Battle of the Citadel as an excuse to stage a coup to put humanity on top.  

Modifié par Cyberstrike nTo, 17 octobre 2010 - 10:28 .

[upsettingshorts]

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

Considering that the default opening (i.e. if you don't play Mass Effect 1) is basically the continuation of the "renegade" ending (you can also sacrifice the Council and still be a paragon but the opening, dialogue, and consequences are all still the same), I don't the think Renegades were forgotten, they got the default opening and everyone on the Citadel thinking that Shepard and humanity are big bunch of jerks.

I don't think they are forgotten or ignored.  I think the Renegade Shepard is vague in concept and inconsistent in writing, therefore when compared with Paragon Shepard - a failure in execution.

[ObserverStatus]

Anyone who thinks that Renegade players are being treated unfairly should take a look at how the handle Paragades >_<

[fongiel24]

Nightwriter wrote...

Renegades, I have the solution.

Stop killing people.

But rescuing kittens out of trees just doesn't offer the same kind of rush and needlepoint doesn't scratch that psychopathic itch .

What ME needs is the option to arrest people. Too many of these decisions have only two choices - kill them or let them go. In a lot of these situations I would have liked to lock up the individuals in question but couldn't, so given a choice between letting them run free in the galaxy or shooting them, I chose the latter.

[upsettingshorts]

bobobo878 wrote...

Anyone who thinks that Renegade players are being treated unfairly should take a look at how the handle Paragades >_<

Paragades are missing significant options in the game unless they cheat.

Thankfully I do, and as such I'm basically a 65/35 Paragade.

[ObserverStatus]

Nightwriter wrote...
Renegades, I have the solution.
Stop killing people.

But it's fun to shoot people!  That's why they invented videogames in the first place.

[Nightwriter]

fongiel24 wrote...

But rescuing kittens out of trees just doesn't offer the same kind of rush and needlepoint doesn't scratch that psychopathic itch .

Yeah, my psychopathic itch is plenty scratched by the "What sound will you make when you hit the bottom?" speech (so awesome) and beating the crap out of those two guys in the Afterlife VIP section.

Also beating the crap out of Elias Kelham. Which. I. Always. Do.

[Giggles_Manically]

I take a fair number of renegade decisions, to fun not to, and many of them make a good deal of sense.



Almost all the renegade interrupts people should take (except for Mouse, ouch).