303 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Geowil wrote...

Actually Karma is a very real part of some religions. Saying that it is not real is like saying to a Catholic that the bible is fake.

Parts of the bible are, undoubtably, fake, in the sense that they didn't happen as portrayed. That's what happens when you go through dozens of translations and selections by people and authorities of various motivations.

Attributions of karmic linking are as grounded as a depressed persons' view of hopelessness and an optimists view of nothing going wrong.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 17 octobre 2010 - 10:38 .

[goatman42]

Talogrungi wrote...

The thing that I dislike about Paragon options (in ME1) is that they typically resulted in additional content in ME2, whereas Renegade options didn't.

• Save the Rachni in ME1, you get some continuity dialogue in ME2 on Illium.
• Support Parasini in ME1, you get a tiny sidequest and some additional dialogue in ME2.
• Spare Fist in ME1 and you get a bonus encounter in ME2.
• Spare Helena Blake in ME1 and you get a bonus encounter in ME2.
• Help people in ME1, you get a variety of thank-you mails and such.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any Renegade ME1 decisions that resulted in exclusive ME2 content.
Admittedly, it's a minor grumble in the large scheme of things, but still a valid criticism in my opinion. Bioware does seem to favour Paragons in this.

I totally get what your saying but at the same time it makes since for Paragons to get all the extra options in the context of the story. I mean people want to thank you for all the nice things you did for them. If your renegade, everyone is ether dead or doesn't want anything to do with you because your such a horrible person.

[doagrl]

DPSSOC wrote...

doagrl wrote...
But that's really not that different from the Paragon decision because regardless of the choice that you make humanity is still looked at with suspicion by the older Council races. It's very clear when you walk around on the Wards & during Thane's loyalty mission that even if you save the Council the other races see Humans as moving in and taking over.

 
There's a fine but definitive line between resentment and hostility.

doagrl wrote...
It's hard to understand what Renegades want to see happen in game other than what has already happened. It would be out of range for Bioware to create new and exclusive content just for Renegade playthroughs and the characters who are dead are dead so they can't come back.

 
What I want, is for the choices not to be so one sided.  I know this is going to sound like whining but it's not fair with the current set up.  Name a single Renegade choice, just one, that has a positive result in ME2...I'll wait.  Now name a Paragon choice, cause I can come up with 2 off the top of my head; Rachni allies and a non-hostile Council.  I don't care about the cameos, they're a nice little extra for not putting a round through their head, what I do care about is balance.  I can deal with a few Renegade choices biting me in the ass, like the Council I'm cool with that, but in return I'd like to see a few Paragon choices biting as well.  Letting Fist lives allows him to restablish himself and he's now running a mafia style organization on Illium where he's completely untouchable.  I'm not saying every Paragon choice should turn out wrong, but it'd be nice if we actually had to think about which was the better choice rather than going, the Paragon one.

I consider a candidate openly campaigning on an anti-human platform (& gaining quite a lot of support) regardless of if you saved the Council or not to be pretty much even when all is said and done.

Again I don't think there is any way to bring about the changes that you want to see without Bioware making the Renegade choices the "right" choices. The Council was the same old bunch of smug, non-believing jerks to me even though I saved them as the human council is to the Renegade who let the old Councilors die. And that is just as it should be because both decisions were equally valid when role playing and I don't know why you think that's unfair.

As for the Rachni, Renegades constantly bring them up as a "win" for the Paragons and after ME2 it looks like they will be allies for Shepard's cause which if it happens will be great for Paragons who took a chance on letting the Queen live.

However, we all know that Bioware never does anything to really give one player an advantage over another in these games. So for Paragons who played ME 1 they will still know and feel good about their decision to save the species but for Renegades or people who never played the earlier game they won't be penalized by not having Rachni allies on their side.

[Dean_the_Young]

Why is 'killing people' even a Renegade-characteristic in the first place? It's not like Paragons have 'clean' hands.



There should be more cases like the C-SEC investigation into weapon mods and the Syndicate Warfare, where if you try the direct paragon option (to arrest the criminals), it gets you a fight.



Of course, on of those had a paragon option that didn't cause a fight, and the other had no carry-over at all.

[upsettingshorts]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Attributions of karmic linking are as grounded as a depressed persons' view of hopelessness and an optimists view of nothing going wrong.

Karma, as it is commonly understood in the West - is actually quite different from the Eastern theological concept of Karma.

The former is convenient nonsense that is used to justify tons of stuff.

The latter is... harder to explain.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

Considering that the default opening (i.e. if you don't play Mass Effect 1) is basically the continuation of the "renegade" ending (you can also sacrifice the Council and still be a paragon but the opening, dialogue, and consequences are all still the same), I don't the think Renegades were forgotten, they got the default opening and everyone on the Citadel thinking that Shepard and humanity are big bunch of jerks.

I don't think they are forgotten or ignored.  I think the Renegade Shepard is vague in concept and inconsistent in writing, therefore when compared with Paragon Shepard - a failure in execution.

I think the Renegade are as consistant as the paragons, the only difference is that the paragons saved more people the renegade killed more people. So unless there is a medium on board the Nomanday in Mass Effect 3 I hate to say it but the renegades got exactly what they wanted they put humanity on top, and pissed off every other race in the galaxy.
 
What do you expect someone to say about killing the rachni queen? How and why? Other than the Council, Shepard, and the squadmates that went there with Shepard. So nobody knows or cares.

The renegades' options result in more characters getting killed, so less reasons for people to NOT to like Shepard and not give a damn about her/him.  

[upsettingshorts]

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...
I think the Renegade are as consistant as the paragons,

How do you figure?  I believe I've adaquetely demonstrated the inconsistency among Renegade actions and motivations in ME1-2. In the same post I have categorized Paragon Shepard as "right makes might." 

If you're going to challenge my conclusion, I'd appreciate something along the lines of either attempting to explain the Renegade's inconsistencies, or demonstrate that Paragon Shepard is equally inconsistent.  Otherwise, why should I be convinced?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 17 octobre 2010 - 10:47 .

[ObserverStatus]

Shandepared wrote...
Now though... what's the point? I know that any choice that is in the upper right or left portion of the dialog wheel will ultimately lead to a positive outcome. I know that any choice in the lower left or right portion of the dialog wheel will lead to a violent universe or a sad outcome. None of the choices are hard to make anymore.

It's too early to determine how all of the choices Shepard has made will affect ME3.  In ME2,  Shiala admitted that doctors still can't determine what the Thorian spores have done to her and the Zhu's hope colonists.  No one knows how the Thorian reproduces either for that matter, so on my most recent playthrough I massacred them.  I'm not sure if Bioware will bring back the Thorian in ME3,  but I seriously doubt they'll let players get away with letting Balak go.

Modifié par bobobo878, 17 octobre 2010 - 10:58 .

[mosor]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...
I think the Renegade are as consistant as the paragons,

How do you figure?  I believe I've adaquetely demonstrated the inconsistency among Renegade actions and motivations in ME1-2. In the same post I have categorized Paragon Shepard as "right makes might." 

If you're going to challenge my conclusion, I'd appreciate something along the lines of either attempting to explain the Renegade's inconsistencies, or demonstrate that Paragon Shepard is equally inconsistent.  Otherwise, why should I be convinced?

Renegades are consistant. The put the primary mission objectives above all else and are generally untrusting.
Paragons generally put  the feelings and needs of others above the goals of the primary mission. They are generally trusting.

Depending on which renegade action (Since sometimes there are more than one action that generates renegade points) some of them are greedy or brutal.

Depending on the Paragon action, some of them are outrageously naive.

Modifié par mosor, 17 octobre 2010 - 11:00 .

[upsettingshorts]

mosor wrote...
Renegades are consistant. The put the primary mission objectives above all else and are generally untrusting.

That only fits one of the three categories of Renegade behavior of outlined above.  Renegade Shepard also executes people for no mission critical reason, and he might also believe in advancing the cause of human dominance.  These represent fundamental differences in my opinion.  Each calls for a different mindset, different motivations, and different goals.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 17 octobre 2010 - 11:03 .

[Giggles_Manically]

I think the problem is Shand, is that Bioware cut corners and cameo's to save money.

Honestly an email is WAY cheaper than a cameo most likely.



However some emails pointed out a confrontation or something happening in ME3.

[Cheese Elemental]

Shandepared wrote...It seems to me that turning over the evidence in Tali's trial should be the paragon choice if you can't charm/intimidate the admirals. You are all after all looking out for Tali's best interests in the long run and you are also trying to look out for the best interests of the Migrant Fleet. Shepard has good reasons for doing it, "Your people were gearing up for a dangerous war, they need all the facts to make an informed decision."

Generally speaking, Paragons are less nationalistic/racist and much more open-minded about the differences between cultures. A Paragon would try to prevent the quarians embarking on a near-suicidal war against AIs who only rebelled in order to survive.

Modifié par Cheese Elemental, 17 octobre 2010 - 11:36 .

[pf17456]

I think for subsequent DLC and ME3 Bioware should randomize the position of choices on the dialogue wheel just to make things a little more honest

[Giggles_Manically]

pf17456 wrote...

I think for subsequent DLC and ME3 Bioware should randomize the position of choices on the dialogue wheel just to make things a little more honest

They are doing that in the Old Republic, where the top right dialouge is most likely what that class archtype would say. and the bottom right is the more abnormal one.

ie the "Paragon" slot for Sith is more Darth Vader like, while the "Renegade" slot is more normal.
If I remember the Interview right. 

[Cyberstrike nTo]

If Gianna died you could instead meet Maeko Matsuo who complains that Gianna and Anoleis' deaths got her fired.

IIRC she works for different company. So chances are she wouldn't be fired regardless.

If you killed Shiala you could meet Elyzabeth Beynam.

Well you do meet a female human colonist that looks a lot like her. It was probably meant to be her but maybe there were problems with scheduling with the VO actress or something.

If you killed the rachni queen maybe the Council declassifies Shepard's actions on Noveria and thus everyone discovers what Binary-Helix did. The company goes bankrupt and Shepard is confronted by some angry former employees at some point.

 
Why would the Council declassify that kind of info?  

If you killed Chorban you could meet his partner who either thanks you for helping him or complains about being arrested and slapped with fines and jail time for stealing from his company. (meeting an actual person only if Chorban died would balance out not meeting anybody if Fist died)

When I play as a renegade I kill the salarian and get the volus arrested.

If the Council died the solution is simple: let me meet the new Council or at least get a longer dialog with Anderson and Udina.

Like what?



Personally it sounds like dealing with a bunch of whiners that would most likely ****** off the Renegade Shepard and end with Shepard killing them.

Modifié par Cyberstrike nTo, 17 octobre 2010 - 11:48 .

[Saremei]

Biggest renegade gripe of all: where's my all human council I set up? Oh they're off being retardedly identical to the incompetent imbeciles I allowed to die.

[pf17456]

Shandepared wrote...

[Edit: Offensive comment removed. -- Pacifien]

It's comments like this which reflect the essence of the renegade. Rude, impulsive and angry , driven by emotion and a short fuse.
Just the type to make rational decisions that determine the fate of the galaxy.

Can't wait to see how succssful they'll be. Let's start first with the fate of this thread.

Modifié par Pacifien, 18 octobre 2010 - 10:08 .

[Sundance31us]

Dissing religious beliefs and personal insults, though not in the same post.



Shall we take bets on how long this thread says open?

[Dave of Canada]

pf17456 wrote...

It's comments like this which reflect the essence of the renegade. Rude, impulsive and angry , driven by emotion and a short fuse.
Just the type to make rational decisions that determine the fate of the galaxy.

... but Paragon Shepards are extremely forgiving and self righteous. I don't think that's any better.

[Inquisitor Recon]

pf17456 wrote...
It's comments like this which reflect the essence of the renegade. Rude, impulsive and angry , driven by emotion and a short fuse.
Just the type to make rational decisions that determine the fate of the galaxy.

Can't wait to see how succssful they'll be. Let's start first with the fate of this thread.

Oh yes. Better to let the wussified paragons make all the decisions. Nobody would ever lie to Shepard right? The geth which have consistently slaughtered organics prior to Legion would certainly NEVER go back on their word. Those vicious giant space bugs certainly won't be indoctrinated again or dare lie about their intentions! Lets just stroll into this whole Geth-Quarian conflict and make peace because "its the right thing to do." Hey batarian who decided to poison me, I'll let you go if you agree not to poison humans. An upstanding citizen like yourself would never go against their word right?

We can trust the geth, rachni, and countless others but we can't trust TIM to not do something as incredibly stupid as create his own reaper?

[D.Sharrah]

I am surprised that there is as much discussion about this as there is...I was always under the impression that both are rewarded. Renegade decisions are just rewarded immediately - whether it is making the next conflict easier (multiple examlpes of this in both games) or a material reward (credits or equipment). Whereas Paragon decisions take time to develop into a reward - which makes it easier for it to appear as bonus content later in the story (whether that is in game or in story).



I think that if you want to argue a difference you have to focus more on the consequences of your action. For example, Paragons could argue that if Bioware wanted truly arcing consequences than for those in Mass Effect that made the decison to go through the Sirta facility with reckless abandon and kill everyone - that a proper consequence would be that you would not be able to access the Sirta store on the Citadel.