303 réponses à ce sujet

[Kaiser Shepard]

Bah, as if we need to see the others punished to feel good ourselves. A good enough Renegade does what he must for the sake of doing what is best and can, if he desires so, gloat over being morally superior without seeing the Paragons' hearts broken.



It would certainly help, though.



Besides, if the difference between right and wrong was any more obviously depicted in the games, we wouldn't have these fun forum discussions on them.

[The_Numerator]

The lion's share of these "disputes" over morality are just manifestations of the frustration of players of all "ethical" inclinations, over the broad lack of consequences for any actions taken one way or the other.

[Nightwriter]

bobobo878 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
Renegades, I have the solution.
Stop killing people.

But it's fun to shoot people!  That's why they invented videogames in the first place.

So would you say renegades are motivated by logical reasoning, or fun?

Part of this is that I feel like there are two kinds of renegade, but only one kind of paragon.

There are the renegades who kill people because it's fun, or for the lulz, or just to be a jerk.
Then there are the renegades who do things for good - if ruthless - reasons.

It seems like the game can't really tell the difference, which is a problem. I don't shed many tears over the plight of renegades who shoot everyone for the lulz, but renegades who do things for good reasons I think should get a fairer deal. Yet they get the same deal as renegades who shoot everyone for the lulz.

[Zulmoka531]

I'd just prefer that each route could be treated equally rather than punish this/punish that.



I understand there needs to be some risk versus reward or everything is boring, but as it has been pointed out, as one example, there are many NPCs who took take someones place had the current ones been killed.



It's why bring down the sky was fun in the first game. Kill the terrorist lord/ let captives die. Save captive/ let the terrorist go.



Not all choices need to end in death either.

[Dave of Canada]

Zulmoka531 wrote...

I understand there needs to be some risk versus reward or everything is boring, but as it has been pointed out, as one example, there are many NPCs who took take someones place had the current ones been killed.

Nameless Colonist 2.0 wasn't really fun.

[Azint]

Certain paragon choices seem way to gullible, but otherwise I don't see the need to further antagonize people with that moral mindset. I personally think renegade is way too zealous in their brutality, well sometimes.

[D.Sharrah]

Setting the Krogan speechmaster on fire...Killing the gunship repairer...Breaking eclipse leader's neck and causing exploding tank fall...Getting Koylat's employer to talk with one line of dialogue (regardless of what your actual Spectre status is - this one especially frustrates me as Paragon, since by this time I have seen the council and accepted their offer to reinstate me)...I could go on, but all of these give you an immediate advantage in the next battle.



In ME 1 you get an opportunity to get more experience and credits and potential equipment for every enemy you defeat...For example, if you kill Helena Blake and raid her complex...if kill Major Kyle and all of his follower's...etc.

[D.Sharrah]

What is the Paragon counterpart for killing the guy who repairs that Gunship in Garrus's recruitment?  There is none...which is why even as a Paragon I use this interrupt.

Modifié par D.Sharrah, 18 octobre 2010 - 12:57 .

[Maera Imrov]

pf17456 wrote...

I think for subsequent DLC and ME3 Bioware should randomize the position of choices on the dialogue wheel just to make things a little more honest

That would be neat.

But only if they make the options actually 'say what they mean', as it were. There are times you pick things and what Shepard says after is nowhere near. One of Thane's romance convos rises to mind. "I want you, Thane." Wut? After he *just* got done talking about his wife's murder? I almost didn't pick it just because it was so ...abrupt. Thankfully what Shepard actually *said* was much more kind.

As to some post way early on, about people playing Paragon because they aren't that nice irl, no. Not in my case at least. I'm a bit of an idealist in reality, and really do try my best to avoid conflict, resolve them diplomatically if they do come up, and help out people when I can. I'm not quite as trusting as ParagonShep sometimes seems to be, but I'm certainly not an **** irl trying to make up for my shortcomings in a game. It's because I'm such a damn bleeding heart that I can't stand most of the Renegade options. ._.

[Inquisitor Recon]

D.Sharrah wrote...
What is the Paragon counterpart for killing the guy who repairs that Gunship in Garrus's recruitment?  There is none...which is why even as a Paragon I use this interrupt.

Yes but what if by making the mechanic ride the lightning a renegade Shep prevents Garrus' face from going through a meatgrinder. Somethings the less than noble action should have a nice effect like that.

[D.Sharrah]

ReconTeam wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...
What is the Paragon counterpart for killing the guy who repairs that Gunship in Garrus's recruitment?  There is none...which is why even as a Paragon I use this interrupt.

Yes but what if by making the mechanic ride the lightning a renegade Shep prevents Garrus' face from going through a meatgrinder. Somethings the less than noble action should have a nice effect like that.

Which is just one of the reasons I stated that even in my Paragon playthroughs I use the interrupt....but more importantly I was trying to point out that there is not a Paragon counterpart to this interrupt that gives you an "equal reward"...either you take the interrupt and have an advantage in the upcoming fight or you don't and have no advantage.   Or the renegade player gets an immediate reward for their action, that is the effect that the decision has on the story.  Like in ME 1 you could kill Helena Blake and raid the compound - resulting in my credtis, equipment, and experience VS not killing Helena and being rewarded with a bonus encounter in ME 2.

[Zulu_DFA]

Jabarai wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

I think it is mostly repressed guilt. They can't deal with what they have done, and lash out at Paragons.

I think it's mostly the repressed guilt that makes people play Paragon. They know they aren't such goody-two-shoes IRL, as the society expects of them, so they can at least compensate for it in the game.

We, Renegades, the jerks, want to deny them this opportunity and make them face who they are, just as we do. We want BioWare to do them a favor.

Would it be a stretch to imagine some of the Renegade players being quiet, unsocial wussies in real life and compensating for it in a game?

Probably so, although I'd look for more of what you're talking about in the "paragade" behavior - when the player saves the Council, lets the Rachni queen go and Paragon-exonerates Tali, but never misses a chance to punch / beat / defenestrate a random NPC.

I've never advocated the "pure" renegade, but we're talking the "big choices" here, aren't we?

[Zulmoka531]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Zulmoka531 wrote...

I understand there needs to be some risk versus reward or everything is boring, but as it has been pointed out, as one example, there are many NPCs who took take someones place had the current ones been killed.

Nameless Colonist 2.0 wasn't really fun.

My apologies, I didn't type what I thought I had typed out. I had meant to state there could be alternative NPCs, to take their place, someone you knew or has meaning. The problem stems from renegade options and killing everyone however.
Renegade options should have..diplomatic? (Can't think of a better term here) outcomes similar to paragon. At least in some cases.

Modifié par Zulmoka531, 18 octobre 2010 - 02:01 .

[D.Sharrah]

I see what you're sayinhg Zulu...but the one that I haven't been able to do as a Paragon(gade) is to push the Eclpise Merc out the window - love to do it my Renegade playthroughs...just can't convince myself to do it when I usually have enough "Paragon" to "talk" him down.

[aDuck]

Just putting in my 2 cents worth...

The reason ME1 Renegades dont get extra content in ME2 is because they kill anyone that can appear in ME2 (aside from Helena Blake. Pretty sure you can renegade her and she still becomes a social worker, or neutral her a** and she can work for Aria)

Rachni --> Dead

Parsani --> Dead

Fist --> Dead

Cerberus Scientist --> Dead



The list goes on...

[primero holodon]

Talogrungi wrote...

The thing that I dislike about Paragon options (in ME1) is that they typically resulted in additional content in ME2, whereas Renegade options didn't.

• Save the Rachni in ME1, you get some continuity dialogue in ME2 on Illium.
• Support Parasini in ME1, you get a tiny sidequest and some additional dialogue in ME2.
• Spare Fist in ME1 and you get a bonus encounter in ME2.
• Spare Helena Blake in ME1 and you get a bonus encounter in ME2.
• Help people in ME1, you get a variety of thank-you mails and such.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any Renegade ME1 decisions that resulted in exclusive ME2 content.
Admittedly, it's a minor grumble in the large scheme of things, but still a valid criticism in my opinion. Bioware does seem to favour Paragons in this.

the main reason behind the lack of Renegade effects in ME2 is because the NPC's on the recieving end of renegade decisions have a tendency to come down with a case of dead

[aDuck]

primero holodon wrote...
the main reason behind the lack of Renegade effects in ME2 is because the NPC's on the recieving end of renegade decisions have a tendency to come down with a case of dead

Y thank you yahtzee ;D

Modifié par aDuck, 18 octobre 2010 - 02:54 .

[theelementslayer]

I think some paragon things should bite you in the ass, like say in ME2 when you let someone go, dont know who really, but they should not follow through with what they say and kill you off. Like in GTA4 when you pull up someone and save them you meet them later in the game and then he tried to kill you, or *Farcry 2 spoilers* you save your buddies in farcry and they turn on you at the end making more enemies you have to deal with in the end if you were good to them.

[Gibb_Shepard]

primero holodon wrote...


the main reason behind the lack of Renegade effects in ME2 is because the NPC's on the recieving end of renegade decisions have a tendency to come down with a case of dead

Lol, this.

[Nightwriter]

Maybe BioWare secretly considers some renegade decisions unreasonable and is therefore choosing not to reward players for what they feel are unreasonable decisions.

Or maybe they were just in a hurry making ME2 and accidentally overlooked making renegade content.

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Like I said, like others have said, even if you kill certain NPC's there often alternatives who could appear in their place.

The funny thing here is that the extra cameos for paragons are treated as benefits to paragons whether they are benefits to the universe or not. The tone is not so much that renegades object to being made to feel wrong as they are made to feel they aren't getting equal screen time. There is a difference.

I do agree that there should be times when the renegade decision proves to be the right one (and still think that might happen with Shiala and/or the Feros survivors, due to convincing the lab not to run the additional more invasive tests).

But if the Renegades are going to then whine that paragons get an extra encounter due to having Thorians to play with in ME3, then what they are really saying is that all decisions in the ME trilogy shouldn't really mean anything, that there should be negative consequences to be dealt with later for both, and that they really don't care if it is paragon or renegade, they just want 'stuff to shoot.'

[AngryFrozenWater]

I used to play paragon and make decisions which didn't cause killing, but I soon discovered that all those had just cosmetic impact: A dialog change, an e-mail to Normandy, some media broadcast or at best a cameo. Wrex is a fine example. If he is killed some other krogan takes his place and all krogan missions and assignments play out the same. In cases where it generates a little mission the experience points aren't even worth it. You will reach ME2's maximum level well before doing the final mission no matter what. In fact I prefer it that way. You have less e-mails to click away, and playthroughs are shorter. Renegades have the advantage here.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 18 octobre 2010 - 05:20 .