303 réponses à ce sujet

[Slayer299]

jbblue05 wrote...
Your missing the point she killed a drug dealer who was trying to kill them.
Elnora is a coward she probably recorded that message while other eclispe sisters were around.

I doubt Elnora is going to go around killing innocents for the lulz.
Even when the Eclipse sisters outnumbered Shepard she ranned and hide.
This is a decision that is highly likely to not bite you in the ass

@jbbblue - a drug dealer trying to kill them? You're kidding me...right? Elnora killed a greedy Volus who was out to make a faster buck, right along with Pitni. Why would they *want* to kill the Eclipse Sisters? You make it sound as if Elnora was doing the galaxy a favor by removing a murdering, drug dealer by gunning him down with modded shotgun ammo that blew his exosuit apart.

[ODST 3]

AntiChri5 wrote...

I think it is mostly repressed guilt. They can't deal with what they have done, and lash out at Paragons.

That's right. The Renegade choice is exactly that, renegade. You expect and possibly hope for a negative consequence or you would have chosen otherwise. Making the Paragon choices are for those who seek better consequences.

[Dean_the_Young]

ODST 3 wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

I think it is mostly repressed guilt. They can't deal with what they have done, and lash out at Paragons.

That's right. The Renegade choice is exactly that, renegade. You expect and possibly hope for a negative consequence or you would have chosen otherwise. Making the Paragon choices are for those who seek better consequences.

Talk about a no true scotsman fallacy, and combined with a false dichtomy as well.

Have you two stopped beating up children yet? Yes or no.

[ODST 3]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

ODST 3 wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

I think it is mostly repressed guilt. They can't deal with what they have done, and lash out at Paragons.

That's right. The Renegade choice is exactly that, renegade. You expect and possibly hope for a negative consequence or you would have chosen otherwise. Making the Paragon choices are for those who seek better consequences.

Talk about a no true scotsman fallacy, and combined with a false dichtomy as well.

Have you two stopped beating up children yet? Yes or no.

Take a few psych classes at community and come here to talk down to everyone? Yes or no.

[Arijharn]

The idea that you should be always rewarded as paragons and always penalised as renegades is absurd to the point of being utterly stupid imo.

[GuardianAngel470]

Arijharn wrote...

The idea that you should be always rewarded as paragons and always penalised as renegades is absurd to the point of being utterly stupid imo.

Agreed. Some Renegade choices make logical sense, like the Geth choice and some Paragon choices just are itching to bite you in the butt, like, coincidentally, the geth choice.

[TheBlackBaron]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

The idea that you should be always rewarded as paragons and always penalised as renegades is absurd to the point of being utterly stupid imo.

Agreed. Some Renegade choices make logical sense, like the Geth choice and some Paragon choices just are itching to bite you in the butt, like, coincidentally, the geth choice.

It seems to me there is also the potential for rewriting the geth to backfire.

[jbblue05]

Slayer299 wrote...

[@jbbblue - a drug dealer trying to kill them? You're kidding me...right? Elnora killed a greedy Volus who was out to make a faster buck, right along with Pitni. Why would they *want* to kill the Eclipse Sisters? You make it sound as if Elnora was doing the galaxy a favor by removing a murdering, drug dealer by gunning him down with modded shotgun ammo that blew his exosuit apart.

I believe those drugs were tainted killing anyone who was exposed to it for a time.
Elnora did the galaxy a favor a corrupt merc killing a corrupt merchant.  Always a good thing when the bad guys kill each other as long as innocents aren't involved.

 
My main point is this is something that is highly unlikely to bite paragons in the ass. I doubt Elnora is dangerous as letting Balak or Vido go

[doagrl]

jbblue05 wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...

[@jbbblue - a drug dealer trying to kill them? You're kidding me...right? Elnora killed a greedy Volus who was out to make a faster buck, right along with Pitni. Why would they *want* to kill the Eclipse Sisters? You make it sound as if Elnora was doing the galaxy a favor by removing a murdering, drug dealer by gunning him down with modded shotgun ammo that blew his exosuit apart.

I believe those drugs were tainted killing anyone who was exposed to it for a time.
Elnora did the galaxy a favor a corrupt merc killing a corrupt merchant.  Always a good thing when the bad guys kill each other as long as innocents aren't involved.

 
My main point is this is something that is highly unlikely to bite paragons in the ass. I doubt Elnora is dangerous as letting Balak or Vido go

That was one of the few Paragon decisions that you see the end result of almost immediately. If you didn't pay attention to the fact that she's wearing an Eclipse uniform and bought her story that she was just in the wrong place at the wrong time then you've set a cunning, murderous mercenary free.

Plus, her potential for inflicting pain & suffering on others is even greater than Vido or Balak simply because she's likely to be around a lot longer than them. Elnora is a very young Asari and she has centuries left to live and rise up the ranks of the Eclipse killing, drug dealing and smuggling every step of the way.

[Antiochrasy]

ReconTeam wrote...

pf17456 wrote...
It's comments like this which reflect the essence of the renegade. Rude, impulsive and angry , driven by emotion and a short fuse.
Just the type to make rational decisions that determine the fate of the galaxy.

Can't wait to see how succssful they'll be. Let's start first with the fate of this thread.

Oh yes. Better to let the wussified paragons make all the decisions. Nobody would ever lie to Shepard right? The geth which have consistently slaughtered organics prior to Legion would certainly NEVER go back on their word. Those vicious giant space bugs certainly won't be indoctrinated again or dare lie about their intentions! Lets just stroll into this whole Geth-Quarian conflict and make peace because "its the right thing to do." Hey batarian who decided to poison me, I'll let you go if you agree not to poison humans. An upstanding citizen like yourself would never go against their word right?

We can trust the geth, rachni, and countless others but we can't trust TIM to not do something as incredibly stupid as create his own reaper?

umm if youve read the books TIM did just that

[Dean_the_Young]

ODST 3 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

ODST 3 wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

I think it is mostly repressed guilt. They can't deal with what they have done, and lash out at Paragons.

That's right. The Renegade choice is exactly that, renegade. You expect and possibly hope for a negative consequence or you would have chosen otherwise. Making the Paragon choices are for those who seek better consequences.

Talk about a no true scotsman fallacy, and combined with a false dichtomy as well.

Have you two stopped beating up children yet? Yes or no.

Take a few psych classes at community and come here to talk down to everyone? Yes or no.

No.

See, this is where your example failed: it has a good answer. To both parts even: no, I haven't taken a few psych classes, and I'm also not talking down to everyone.

Compare it to the classic attack question of 'have you stopped beating your wife yet': either answer, yes or no, is an acceptance of the premise that you have, in fact, beaten your wife. It's an invalid question, same as the one I was linking it to.

[Tony Gunslinger]

Arijharn wrote...

The idea that you should be always rewarded as paragons and always penalised as renegades is absurd to the point of being utterly stupid imo.

I agree, but as I've mentioned before, it depends on what your definition of 'reward' and 'punishment.' If reward means more content/screentime, then please list any substantial extra content that a renegade misses out in ME2.

[Arijharn]

doagrl wrote...

Plus, her potential for inflicting pain & suffering on others is even greater than Vido or Balak simply because she's likely to be around a lot longer than them. Elnora is a very young Asari and she has centuries left to live and rise up the ranks of the Eclipse killing, drug dealing and smuggling every step of the way.

True, but just maybe there could be a chance for her turning her life around and becoming a Justicar like a certain lass named Samara? Hah, who am I kidding? I shoot her there too, but only because she attempted to quick draw on me.

[Arijharn]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

The idea that you should be always rewarded as paragons and always penalised as renegades is absurd to the point of being utterly stupid imo.

I agree, but as I've mentioned before, it depends on what your definition of 'reward' and 'punishment.' If reward means more content/screentime, then please list any substantial extra content that a renegade misses out in ME2.

Your mileage my vary of course, but I would list the fact that sacrificing the workers on zorya to ensure Zaeed's loyalty as the epitome of bad direction that only really serves to give renegade's a disadvantage. Consider:
1) Sacrificing the workers means you do not get the Heavy Weapon Ammo upgrade
2) I'm less certain of this (it's been a while) but you do not get as many mineral pick ups
3) A paragon player can get the full ammo pick up and the minerals and get Zaeed's loyalty without sacrificing anything. What has the Renegade gotten other than the shaft in this instance?

I do not think the choice between a paragon and renegade should basically alter flavour text only, I do not believe that a renegade or paragon should get the same things at all, what they should get are equal things (like for example; instead of getting Heavy Skin Weave, perhaps he gets another upgrade of roughly similiar 'weighting' like a Weapon upgrade?).

[lovgreno]

Arijharn wrote...

The idea that you should be always rewarded as paragons and always penalised as renegades is absurd to the point of being utterly stupid imo.

True. And the other way around as well of course. All choices have cosequences yes, but those should not be read as punishment, rewards or a proof that you was right before.

[mopotter]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I've called for it a bunch of times and I play Paragon.

It's just that I don't think my offers of second chances and belief that everything's going to turn out alright anyway shouldn't always work out.

That, and Renegade players have an excellent point in that they don't gain much of anything for their choices and instead simply have content "removed" from the sequel.

Xilizhra wrote...

Ah. Well, I don't take Renegade options, so I don't really mind what they get; I wish you luck in ME3 rectifying this (even though I can't help but feel a bit smug about being on the right side).

There is no right side.  It's about supporting features they've implemented.  Why even include a Renegade dynamic if it isn't going to be fully supported?

I agree with you.  I never play a total renegade in any of my games but renegade choices should have some kind of payback, and some of the paragon choices should not necessarily bring great rewards.  

i saved the Rachni 90% of the time but in ME 3 I would not mind if "the tone from space" which I think was the reapers, caused them to join the reapers, making it a bit harder to win the war.  Not impossible, but harder.

Or the collector base at the end of ME2. -  I always destroy it, but if you kept it, and in ME3 you have some extra knowledge or weapons that make it a bit easier that would be ok too.  I would still destroy it.

I don't think you should lose the war because you play paragon or renegade, and I don't think that will happen, but having it harder to win because of choices (paragon or renegade) I think that would be reasonable. 

[tallinn]

Shandepared wrote...


Commander Shepard is not me. He's nothing like me really. He's violent, aggressive, confrontational, a natural leader, and a professional soldier who never blinks in the face of danger. He's also apparently quite comfortable with killing and with making hard choices.

A man like that is not a "natural leader". The game does not reflect that but taking the renegade route when dealing with your team members in ME2 does not punish you any more then getting Jack not to talk to you any more.

It would be much more logical that you won't get people loya as a Renegadel, or at least not all of them. If you are rude to people you end up alone in most cases, thus having to rely more on your own (which means death in the ME2 final). Team members I could imagine to become loyal to the renegade Shephard are  Grunt and Mordin. No chance with Tali (isn't it so that a pure renegade Shephard fails to obtain Tali's loyality?) or Jacob, Thane or Samara - to much idealism in all of them which a renegade Shephard does not acknowledge. Hard to tell about Miranda and Garrus. Legion is the only character that fits to any kind of Shephard. (BTW: Is it just me phantasizing or is it really so that the choice regarding the heretics is presented two times during Legions loyality mission with killing the heretics being the paragon choice the first time and the renegade choice the second time?).

And Jack is special: she could team up better with a renegade Shephard as she expects everyone to be renegade. But the price for that is: she would never be loyal to such a guy, she would instead just take care of herself. So Jack teaming up with a renegade Shephard should be somewhat stronger but should not count as loyal.

[Katamariguy]

Considering most of the renegade options discussed involved deciding whether to kill something, it makes sense that they wouldn't appear in ME2.

[tallinn]

Arijharn wrote...



Your mileage my vary of course, but I would list the fact that sacrificing the workers on zorya to ensure Zaeed's loyalty as the epitome of bad direction that only really serves to give renegade's a disadvantage. Consider:
1) Sacrificing the workers means you do not get the Heavy Weapon Ammo upgrade
2) I'm less certain of this (it's been a while) but you do not get as many mineral pick ups
3) A paragon player can get the full ammo pick up and the minerals and get Zaeed's loyalty without sacrificing anything. What has the Renegade gotten other than the shaft in this instance?

Look, it is simple: making better decisions gives better results. Why should a story tell a different thing?

Acting "good" is no value on its own. It's is simply the better choice, making life easier on the long run. That is true in RL, why should it not be true in the ME-universe? Forcing the things the violent way is more often then not just impatient and a waste of energy and chances, while taking more risk, and adding more problems to your life then it is able to resolve. Don't bomb the wall when there is an open door to go through.

And Paragons all feel bad about letting Vido slip away. However, the whole Zaeed mission is absurd in more then one way: the final result should be to get rid of this Zaeed bastard as soon as possible. He is not able to obey orders, not able for teamplay, not respecting Shephard as a leader - and eventually loyal? Wether you are Paragon or Renegade or anything in between: you do not want to have someone like that in your team. I would have been happy to have the Paragon result being a Zaeed leaving to hunt Vido, or a dead Zaeed. Anyone could see that as a punishment for Paragon. I would take it as relief.

[Arijharn]

tallinn wrote...

Arijharn wrote...



Your mileage my vary of course, but I would list the fact that sacrificing the workers on zorya to ensure Zaeed's loyalty as the epitome of bad direction that only really serves to give renegade's a disadvantage. Consider:
1) Sacrificing the workers means you do not get the Heavy Weapon Ammo upgrade
2) I'm less certain of this (it's been a while) but you do not get as many mineral pick ups
3) A paragon player can get the full ammo pick up and the minerals and get Zaeed's loyalty without sacrificing anything. What has the Renegade gotten other than the shaft in this instance?

Look, it is simple: making better decisions gives better results. Why should a story tell a different thing?

Acting "good" is no value on its own. It's is simply the better choice, making life easier on the long run. That is true in RL, why should it not be true in the ME-universe? Forcing the things the violent way is more often then not just impatient and a waste of energy and chances, while taking more risk, and adding more problems to your life then it is able to resolve. Don't bomb the wall when there is an open door to go through.

And Paragons all feel bad about letting Vido slip away. However, the whole Zaeed mission is absurd in more then one way: the final result should be to get rid of this Zaeed bastard as soon as possible. He is not able to obey orders, not able for teamplay, not respecting Shephard as a leader - and eventually loyal? Wether you are Paragon or Renegade or anything in between: you do not want to have someone like that in your team. I would have been happy to have the Paragon result being a Zaeed leaving to hunt Vido, or a dead Zaeed. Anyone could see that as a punishment for Paragon. I would take it as relief.

Than what's the point of even offering a damn choice in the first place in a game if it only ever rewards half the people who chose option A over the other half who don't chose it?

Does that make sense? If you want to be a good guy and save kittens and get rewarded with a blueberry muffin then all the power to you, but if I do certain 'kick ass' things I want to be rewarded occasionally with a meat pie. Does that make more sense?

[Nightwriter]

Well I think that in that example the decision doesn't suffer from unequal paragon/renegade rewards, but from how the renegade decision is written.

The refinery choice was particularly strange, the renegade decision is somewhat ridiculous, even pointlessly evil. It's so bad I am hardly surprised we aren't rewarded for it.

The solution is to make a better and more justifiable renegade decision, and then reward that one equally.

[Elyvern]

Nightwriter wrote...

Well I think that in that example the decision doesn't suffer from unequal paragon/renegade rewards, but from how the renegade decision is written.

The refinery choice was particularly strange, the renegade decision is somewhat ridiculous, even pointlessly evil. It's so bad I am hardly surprised we aren't rewarded for it.

The solution is to make a better and more justifiable renegade decision, and then reward that one equally.

There is a reward for it: it's the only way you can acquire the 7/7 assault rifle upgrade.

[Arijharn]

Elyvern wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Well I think that in that example the decision doesn't suffer from unequal paragon/renegade rewards, but from how the renegade decision is written.

The refinery choice was particularly strange, the renegade decision is somewhat ridiculous, even pointlessly evil. It's so bad I am hardly surprised we aren't rewarded for it.

The solution is to make a better and more justifiable renegade decision, and then reward that one equally.

There is a reward for it: it's the only way you can acquire the 7/7 assault rifle upgrade.

ZOMG really? o.0 Where is it?

[Elyvern]

Arijharn wrote...

There is a reward for it: it's the only way you can acquire the 7/7 assault rifle upgrade.

ZOMG really? o.0 Where is it?

From the ME Wiki:

If you chose to go after Vido, then you will proceed through the door while an explosion is heard behind you. You enter another room with a door; open it and take cover on the other side. There are three Blue Suns Troopers in this area. Use any methods to take them out, then move up. Another Trooper is coming down a ramp bridge, but before he can get across, an explosion sends him and the bridge down into the depths of the refinery. Turn right and head up to cover because more enemies will come out, two Troopers and a Pyro. Once they fall, head in the door they came out of to access a servo for credits and a terminal for assault rifle damage.

Modifié par Elyvern, 19 octobre 2010 - 12:29 .

[Arijharn]

Well let me change my past point then. Other than the fact that leaving the workers to die/letting them live smacks of cartoon villainy (especially since the paragons say: "screw loyalty" and then can get it anyway) then I would say this is a good example of an equal trade off.



Not the same thing, neither are leagues more useful than the other, but both are 'rewards.' This is the sort of thing I'd like to see more of.