110 réponses à ce sujet

[Markinator_123]

I know this has been addressed before but this is main thing that irritates me about the decision. As most of you know, after the suicide mission, your squadmates will applaud the paragon choice and complain about the renegade choice. I thought that was ridiculous and it was basically Bioware saying that the paragon choice was the right one. I personally think that the squad should have been split on this decision. Some of are even out of character, like Miranda, by agreeing with the paragon choice.

PS: This is not a topic about whether keep the base vs destroying it. This is just concerning the squadmate reaction and how it could have been handle better.

Modifié par Markinator_123, 17 octobre 2010 - 07:13 .

[hooahguy]

I dont think Miri's choice was out of character. By the suicide mission she was already disillusioned with Cerberus, makes sense for her to side with the Paragon decision. Plus seeing how royally Cerberus tends to mess things up, its not surprising that other squaddies would agree with you for blowing it up.

[OverlordNexas]

Yeah I didn't like it either, and thats coming from someone who always destroys the base. What's even more annoying is that some of them will recommend keeping the base during the mission, but will tell you it was the right idea to destroy it afterwords.

[Elyvern]

Yes. It does shoehorn you into thinking destroying the base is a good idea. I can never understand why the narrative hand-of-god is so strong with this one. In fact you don't even have to go that far ahead, the number of characters that are written to support destroying the base when you are doing it outnumbers the ones against it, including Miranda, the Cerberus Loyalist. She gives a really irrational explanation about how it feels like a betrayal. How does an emotional response like that gel with her renowned pragmatism?

[Markinator_123]

hooahguy wrote...

I dont think Miri's choice was out of character. By the suicide mission she was already disillusioned with Cerberus, makes sense for her to side with the Paragon decision. Plus seeing how royally Cerberus tends to mess things up, its not surprising that other squaddies would agree with you for blowing it up.

How was she disillusioned? Throughout the game, she remained pragmatic and supportive of Cerberus. She showed no signs that she was doubting Cerberus at all. Sorry, but I find her resignation half-***** and badly handled.

[AlexMBrennan]

It is not unreasonable to assume that the non-human squadmembers (i.e everyone except Miranda, Jacob and Jack) might have reservations about handing potential wmd blueprints to Cerberus.

I find it much harder to believe that they'll do nothing (like, say, trying to kill Shepard and setting the explosives themselves) to prevent the Renegade choice.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 17 octobre 2010 - 07:46 .

[Xilizhra]

Theoretically, it might count as bad writing, but I really don't mind.

[philiposophy]

It was ridiculous how unanimous they were about it. The worst is that those who advocate keeping it at the time immediately say you shouldn't have done so when you're back. They should have picked who would advocate preserving it for various reasons (Miranda, Jacob, Mordin) and then have them express it with consistency.



Since they made keeping it so ominous, they should have at the very least had comments from all after destroying it questioning how you threw away potentially crucial information.

[chris025657]

 About half the squad advocates keeping the base while in the mission, but all them change their positions about five minutes later on the Normandy. So yes, it was inconsistency and poor writing 
There was a thread about this here, explaining what each squadmate advocates. 

From that thread:

Garrus: I don't know, Shepard. What happened here was horrible, but we have to stop the Reapers. If we destroy this base then all these people died for nothing.
Grunt: He's right. When your enemy gives you a weapon, you use it. You might not get another chance.
Jack: Seriously? Shepard, he's a user, just like Collectors.
Jacob: It's better because we'll do it? Shepard, this is way over the line.
Kasumi: Shep, he's talking about doing it all again. How will that help anything?
Legion: Shepard-Commander, this facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others.
Miranda: I'm not so sure. Seeing it first hand--using anything from this base seems like a betrayal.
Mordin: Agreed. Collector base horrific. Vile experiments, but should use what's here. Risks galaxy to ignore opportunity.
Samara: You have not really defeated the enemy if you adopt their methods.
Tali: Shepard, we fought to stop it. Us using it doesn't make it right.
Thane: Shepard/Siha, I've made a life of killing those who deserve to die. We must struggle to not become what we hate.
Zaeed: Someone gives you a weapon, you don't complain that it's dirty--you use it.

Highlighted names for quick reference as to whether or not each individual's opinion falls into the Renegade orParagon choice category.

Modifié par chris025657, 17 octobre 2010 - 08:01 .

[Dileos]

It isn't really bad writing. Its made very obvious over the course of the game that TIM and Cerberus are pants-on-head-retarded. Miranda and Jacob, two Cerberus employees even show extreme distrust for the company. Jacob even goes so far as to say that they do deserve the title "terrorists".



Giving Cerberus the Collector base would be like giving a redneck all of America's nuclear launch codes and pointing him at the middle east.

[doagrl]

I think it kind of fits for everyone except maybe Miranda depending on how your relationship with her has gone so far.

None of your recruits really trust Cerberus they are only there because of either their past relationship with you or because the threat of the Collectors is to great to ignore (Miri being the exception). So for them to not voice concerns about you handing over something as potentially powerful and game changing as the Collector base to TIM would be completely out of character.

Now, I always blow the base up but the first time I played I was surprised by Miranda because I had pretty much avoided her the whole mission and didn't really consider her my Shepard's friend more like a necessary co-worker only. So in that way I think it was bad writing because the last time I talked to her she was still Cerberus' Head Cheerleader.

But on subsequent playthroughs I made a real effort to get to know Miranda and it got to a place where I felt her doubts about Cerberus as an organization were growing. By the time we got to the end game it felt right that she would express concerns over keeping the Base & that she would resign from Cerberus rather than try to stop Shepard from destroying the thing.

[Geowil]

OverlordNexas wrote...

Yeah I didn't like it either, and thats coming from someone who always destroys the base. What's even more annoying is that some of them will recommend keeping the base during the mission, but will tell you it was the right idea to destroy it afterwords.

I get what you are saying, but are you suggesting that they can not change their minds on a subject?  I think that after TIM almost orders you to save the base and not destroy it that it would be enough reason for them to change their minds.

[LorDC]

Yeah, that was really disappointing. Even those who are against destroying the base at the moment of choice change their mind. Feels really strange when 12 completely different characters say more or less same thing. It is even more strange considering that Bioware tried to make this choice ambiguous(at least it looks for me like that).

I think it should have been something like that:

1) Miranda if not loyal is against destroying. If loyal supports any your choice.

2) Jacob supports any your choice.

3) Mordin should support keeping base. As a side dialog option expresses his concerns about Cerberus.

4) Garrus if not loyal is against keeping base. If not loyal and was made renegade aligned(Spectre path) in ME 1 supports keeping base. If loyal supports Shepard's choice.

5) Grunt should be indifferent about it. "You are my battlemaster, your choice is my choice."

7) Jack, Samara, Thane and Tali should be against keeping base.

8) Legion, Kasumi and Zaeed(don't remember if last two say anything about it) should support keeping base.

[kraidy1117]

I don't see how miranda is OOC. It was just done poorly. She should have challenged TIM more. Miri goes through a lot of dev during the game. It's not poorly, but it's not OOC. Romance her, do LotSB and then when Liara ask Shepard is he fighting for miri, tell her yes.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I thought the squad mates comments on the base were all mostly in character, but it did really annoy me that almost anyone who supported the decision to keep the base changed their mind by the time they got back to the Normandy. Garrus was the one who came closest to some kind of consistency.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 17 octobre 2010 - 08:26 .

[Markinator_123]

kraidy1117 wrote...

I don't see how miranda is OOC. It was just done poorly. She should have challenged TIM more. Miri goes through a lot of dev during the game. It's not poorly, but it's not OOC. Romance her, do LotSB and then when Liara ask Shepard is he fighting for miri, tell her yes.

I have done the romance, done LotSB, and have seen her character development. I saw no indication that she was distrusting Cerberus at all.

[hooahguy]

IGNORE

Modifié par hooahguy, 17 octobre 2010 - 10:34 .

[Crimmsonwind]

Markinator_123 wrote...

hooahguy wrote...

I dont think Miri's choice was out of character. By the suicide mission she was already disillusioned with Cerberus, makes sense for her to side with the Paragon decision. Plus seeing how royally Cerberus tends to mess things up, its not surprising that other squaddies would agree with you for blowing it up.

How was she disillusioned? Throughout the game, she remained pragmatic and supportive of Cerberus. She showed no signs that she was doubting Cerberus at all. Sorry, but I find her resignation half-***** and badly handled.

While I think there needed to be a bit more of a transition between warming up to Miri and having her side with you on destroying the base, I don't think it was out of character for her to commend you.

I was playing as an almost straight-up Paragon, like I suaully do, and I talked to my squad mates constantly. Miranda starts off saying that Cerberus isn't evil like we make them out to be. After helping her with her sister, talking to her about her life, and just generally being nice to her, she admits that I'm not so bad. I imagine this potentially shakes her foundation a little bit. Here, I've done her a great personal favor and treated her with the utmost kindness, putting aside my grand mission to help her with personal matters that are cleary very important to her. TIM has done things for her, sure; but there's always a catch to it. With me, there are no hooks, no catches. Just a favor for a friend.

So when you come to the base, suddenly TIM is pleading with you, obviously excited because you're in a position he's never anticipated; a real opportunity for him. Frankly, to me, he came across as a tad evil. This is possibly what Miranda saw, too. Upon seeing this, she could have basically said "screw this, I'm with Shepard on this one," and sided with you, surprised at TIM's sudden behavioral change, and unsettled by it.

What we're missing is a real opportunity to voice our opinions about Cerberus and TIM. We're more or less shoehorned into working with them, and we can give TIM a hard time about being a general dick, but it doesn't go much deeper than that until the end. And even then, there wasn't a whole lot more to it (maybe this has been expanded upon in LotSB, but I haven't played it yet).

As far as other characters are concerned though, yes. They shouldn't just agree with you. Those in favor of keeping it should have still been in favor of keeping it after the fact. A conversation with them rationalizing your decision would have been nice, just so half your squadmates don't suddenly think you're some kind of pansy now. But it would have been a nice little bit of character exploration.

[forgivingrud]

I think it was kind of bad writing that some characters werent consistent with their opinions prior to making the decision. I think that the characters that come the closest to consistency are Garrus and Mordin. Because they both imply that it was necessary, but that they dont trust Cerberus. Atleast thats what I remember.

Im not sure if the writers were trying to tell us which was the right choice though, it could go either way. Either they were telling us that destroying the base was the right choice, or they were trying to fool us into thinking that it was by having everyone support the paragon choice. Honestly, I can see how either decision could have negative consequences come the next game.

[CMP023]

Well, the fact that almost everyone tells you it is a bad idea to give the base to cerberus does not necessarily mean it was the wrong choice... Remember how you got told off by almost everyone in ME 1 when you let the rachni queen go? And now in ME 2, she sends you a friendly message about how the rachni will help f*cking the reapers up when they show up...

IDK.. I wouldnt say that saving the collector base was the wrong choice just because almost everyone tells you it is.

[Tleining]

to me it kinda shows the difference between making a choice right in the action, and thinking/sleeping your choice over.

When you are presented with the option "Destroy the technology/keep the Technology", it would make sense to keep it. All your squadmates know the reapers are coming. Afterwards it's about giving that tech to Tim. For the same reason, i wouldn't have given the base to the council. Who knows what they would have used it for.

[Dean_the_Young]

Given how nearly all the crew needed me to settle their great angst emotional life delimas for them, I'm not exactly impressed by their hesitance later.

[Zhijn]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Given how nearly all the crew needed me to settle their great angst emotional life delimas for them, I'm not exactly impressed by their hesitance later.

Lol yup, my thought aswell. Thanks for nothing you bastards!.

[Dean_the_Young]

The thing is, I don't even think the intent for them was that it was the 'wrong' decision: no one actually goes 'bad Shepard, bad!', and then bemoan how it won't help. They're just concerned about what else TIM will do with it. Individually, some of their concerns are well couched, and could be good 'but did you really make the best choice'.



The issue is that everyone takes that hesitance, and no one is anything but gung-ho about destroying the base. It's all flowers and sunshine and sticking it to the man if you destroy the base, which by contrast makes the hesitance in the previous case look like opposition even when it isn't.



It would be a marked difference if, say, everyone on the Paragon path were also going on about 'I know it was the right thing, but just how do we intend to face the Reapers now?' sort of looming despair.



Or, better, let characters vary on both sides of the decision: some support keeping the base and oppose destroying it, while others are vice versa.