110 réponses à ce sujet

[Cheese Elemental]

Shandepared wrote...

hooahguy wrote...

I dont think Miri's choice was out of character. By the suicide mission she was already disillusioned with Cerberus...

At what point was she ever disillusioned with Cerberus?

Her defection if you opt to destroy the base is completely out of character. Even if loyal you should have to pass a charm/intimidate check with her or else kill her.

I can agree with you on that at least, Shand. I feel that would be a fair trade-off for her nigh-invincibility during the suicide mission.

[Dave of Canada]

I think it's just to give Renegades a slap in the face and to reward the Paragons.



That's essentially how ME works, right?

[Saibh]

I think they weren't out of the character--during the SM, that is. Once on the ship, I wish they were consistent about what they felt the "right" choice was.

[smudboy]

Bad writing? Mass Effect 2?

Slow down there!

[D.Sharrah]

Simply put, how many of you in heat of the moment has thought/expressed something that you were utterly convinced as being right - only to retract that sentiment upon more careful thinking? I know that I have.



Could they have done more to explore this change of heart? Yes.



Does it make the paragon choice seem more right? Yes.



But are things as they always seem. I usually play as a paragon, and I do not think that I will ever convince myself to keep the base with those characters - but I also expect that it might come back to me in **** (which is a good reason to have a renegade file). Before ME 3 comes out, I may end up doing a "paragon" playthrough where I keep the base. We'll see...

[Casuist]

If you're a renegade and think that keeping the base is worth any risk, why should your squadmate opinions matter?



If you give a potentially significant resource to an unrepentant criminal, do you expect rational characters to not observe that decision to be risky?

[Moiaussi]

philiposophy wrote...

It was ridiculous how unanimous they were about it. The worst is that those who advocate keeping it at the time immediately say you shouldn't have done so when you're back. They should have picked who would advocate preserving it for various reasons (Miranda, Jacob, Mordin) and then have them express it with consistency.

Since they made keeping it so ominous, they should have at the very least had comments from all after destroying it questioning how you threw away potentially crucial information.

This.

I tend towards paragon, but the uniformity in a decision that was anything but clear made no sense.

[Dave of Canada]

Casuist wrote...

If you're a renegade and think that keeping the base is worth any risk, why should your squadmate opinions matter?

Because Paragons always get "Oh, you go man!" or "You're the best!". Renegades get a "Hey. You ****ed up, man." by the very people who told us to keep it.

[Alessar]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Casuist wrote...

If you're a renegade and think that keeping the base is worth any risk, why should your squadmate opinions matter?

Because Paragons always get "Oh, you go man!" or "You're the best!". Renegades get a "Hey. You ****ed up, man." by the very people who told us to keep it.

Thats not true, TIM told me I was the best after I kept the base!

[Dave of Canada]

Alessar wrote...

Thats not true, TIM told me I was the best after I kept the base!

Good point. Martin Sheen's voice outshines everybody else. If TIM told me to dance, I'll dance.

[Alessar]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Alessar wrote...

Thats not true, TIM told me I was the best after I kept the base!

Good point. Martin Sheen's voice outshines everybody else. If TIM told me to dance, I'll dance.

He really does, even though I'm slightly biased towards paragon choices, I can't make myself dislike TIM.

[Casuist]

Because Paragons always get "Oh, you go man!" or "You're the best!". Renegades get a "Hey. You ****ed up, man." by the very people who told us to keep it.

-It's been pointed out that the squadmates only point out the various motivations for keeping the base if Shepard is ambivalent about the matter. This really is equivalent to the ambiguity of squadmate opinions regarding the council rescue option in ME1 (they're present to make bland statements justifying either side of a decision), and I agree that it diminishes the validity of the characters in those scenes.



...or, in other words, their end-of-game comments are in-character, justifiable and not innately bad writing. The decision-time ambivalence commentary is an in-game character-indifferent contrivance (which could indeed be called bad writing).

[GodWood]

I think they weren't out of the character when you're actually in the Collector Base (except Miranda)

However the fact that they completely change their opinion when they're back on the Normandy is ridiculous.

[Raygereio]

Everything main plot related in ME2 was badly written and devoid of common sense. The aftermath of the collectorbase decision was no exception.

[Anglerfish]

The squad members dislike that the Illusive Man is being trusted with the Collector base, each for their own reasons and most of them reading far too much into a decision which ultimately boils down to practicality - is it more practical to destroy the base [and pursue one's own path] or keep and reverse engineer it? Morality does not enter the equation.

BioWare might be saying that destroying the base was the most flowery, lovely choice, but that in no way implies that it was the wiser choice.

Modifié par Anglerfish, 18 octobre 2010 - 09:44 .

[Foolsfolly]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

It is not unreasonable to assume that the non-human squadmembers (i.e everyone except Miranda, Jacob and Jack) might have reservations about handing potential wmd blueprints to Cerberus.

I find it much harder to believe that they'll do nothing (like, say, trying to kill Shepard and setting the explosives themselves) to prevent the Renegade choice.

It's like handing over a nuke to any terrorist organization today. That's a decision that's going to bite you in the ass somehow. The human characters should be a bit more divided on the subject...maybe. Jacob's generally disillusioned with any authority figure (his father, alliance, cerberus) so he'd probably agree. Miranda....I think she agrees a little too easily with the choice to blow up the base. Cerberus gave her purpose and protected her sister. Sure the Illusive Man's just using her like her father planned to but Cerberus clearly meant a lot to her. Betraying that shouldn't be easy for her.

Zaeed would definately disagree with blowing up the base. Kasumi....would probably rather have it destroyed.

Other than that, it's a base that's only job is to churn out Reapers using hundreds of millions of people as the raw materials. You could learn about their construction and maybe some weaknesses in Reapers....but the temption to create a dumb Reaper as an ace-in-hole will be too much for someone like the Illusive Man. He has no ethical boundries and will do anything if there's a chance for pay-off eventually.

I'm sure many crew members see that and are fine with blowing it up. Besides, Shepard's their commander who personally helped them all through their own issues and pulled them out of a sucide mission alive. The person who does that for you says destroying the base is a good idea...you'll agree out of admiration.

[Schattenkeil]

Markinator_123 wrote...

I know this has been addressed before but this is main thing that irritates me about the decision. As most of you know, after the suicide mission, your squadmates will applaud the paragon choice and complain about the renegade choice.

That surprises me actually. I never tryed the to leave the station intact so I thought they'd all applaud to any choice you make. Like Miranda in the beginning always says "Shepard did everything right, more than we could have hoped for", regardless of whether or not you saved the council.

I am not sure about the reactions of the others, but Miranda's decision agreement surprised me a little. While she was with me on the final fight and she did assist me when the Illusive Man asked her to interfere when I planted the bomb, I thought she would have at least some objections later on.

The one comment I agreed with most was Samra's. She said something similar to: "He thinks he can controll it, but he can't." - though I am pretty sure her actual comment was longer that's about it.

Modifié par Schattenkeil, 18 octobre 2010 - 10:16 .

[Caihn]

I find Miranda's reaction and her opinion during the suicide mission, totally IC.

[Foolsfolly]

Shandepared wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

It's like handing over a nuke to any terrorist organization today.

That is not a fair comparison. I'm not aware of a single terrorist organization in existence today that is as sophisticated, well equipped, or has such broad golas as Cerberus does. They aren't merely radicals who got together and decided to fight for a cause. Until very recently these people were doing work sanctioned by the official representive of humanity on the galactic stage.

And things sactioned by governments are always ethical?

Regardless of their resources or how well equiped they are Reaper tech is hundreds maybe thousands of years more advanced than anything anyone currently has. It is like giving modern day terrorists nuclear weapons. It's a huge jump in their tech and a massive weapon they can use.

Fact is, they're still unethical xenophobic radicals with an agenda to suppress people who are not like them. And giving the base to them is a huge huge risk for an awful lot of the galaxy. Until ME3 comes out we don't exactly know the outcome of this choice but the Illusive Man's constant lies and reputation makes it very conceivable that most of your crew would dislike handing over the base to them.

[Mister Mida]

It comes down to crappy writing. During the SM Legion pleads for keeping the base since destroying it won't bring back the dead and it is it says 'data'. After the SM however, he hopes you, the human race, will not use it. This occurs with many of the characters, like Mordin.

[Dean_the_Young]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

It's like handing over a nuke to any terrorist organization today.

That is not a fair comparison. I'm not aware of a single terrorist organization in existence today that is as sophisticated, well equipped, or has such broad golas as Cerberus does. They aren't merely radicals who got together and decided to fight for a cause. Until very recently these people were doing work sanctioned by the official representive of humanity on the galactic stage.

And things sactioned by governments are always ethical?

Regardless of their resources or how well equiped they are Reaper tech is hundreds maybe thousands of years more advanced than anything anyone currently has. It is like giving modern day terrorists nuclear weapons. It's a huge jump in their tech and a massive weapon they can use.

Fact is, they're still unethical xenophobic radicals with an agenda to suppress people who are not like them. And giving the base to them is a huge huge risk for an awful lot of the galaxy. Until ME3 comes out we don't exactly know the outcome of this choice but the Illusive Man's constant lies and reputation makes it very conceivable that most of your crew would dislike handing over the base to them.

When has Cerberus suppressed aliens? Moreover, since when has dominance (their goal) necessitated suppression? Police are dominant. Parents are dominant. Teachers are dominant. None of then are innatey oppressive.

When has Cerberus even warranted the terrorist label they get slapped with?

What, exactly, are the 'constant' lies of the Illusive Man? Besides the Collector Ship, where he had a reason to do so, where else does he make a habit of it?