110 réponses à ce sujet

[Schattenkeil]

Yannkee wrote...

I find Miranda's reaction and her opinion during the suicide mission, totally IC.

Arguable. When you ask Miranda about the labs that Cerberus ran, she defends it. She even believes that using husks as shock troops as a good idea. And she seems to believe in what Cerberus stands for. At least she said that.

Might be she's just thankful for giving her a place to fill in. The conversations earlier on suggest that Cerberus accepted Miranda because of her genetic superiority without asking. Shepard in turn makes it clear that she (i.e. Shepard) actually values Miranda as a person, regardless of her genetical heritage: "Your beauty and your compassion speak for themselves". So maybe Miranda's view changes throughout the game, because within the crew of the Normandy, including the non-humans, she finds acceptance she hasn't found before.

[ashwind]

Well - who knows, maybe in ME3 - Shepard and many will die in the end if the collector base is destroyed



Your renegade squad members will say "I told you so MORON" before they die XD

[Sgt Lindog]

i attributed the change of character once you were back on the normandy to everyone having had some time to think about it, in the heat of the moment and while ****ting your pants because you were just attacked by a gigantic arny terminator it seems like a good idea to keep the base and learn from it but once back on the normandy everyone has had time to remember what a bunch of ass clowns cerberus are. seriously someone name one cerberus experiment other than lazarus that has turned into a giant catastrophe that blows up in their face... My only wish was that there was a third option allowing you to turn the base over to the council which would help accomadate shepards transition back into a full time spectre for ME3

[GodWood]

Schattenkeil wrote...
Might be she's just thankful for giving her a place to fill in. The conversations earlier on suggest that Cerberus accepted Miranda because of her genetic superiority without asking. Shepard in turn makes it clear that she (i.e. Shepard) actually values Miranda as a person, regardless of her genetical heritage: "Your beauty and your compassion speak for themselves". So maybe Miranda's view changes throughout the game, because within the crew of the Normandy, including the non-humans, she finds acceptance she hasn't found before.

Thats not always the case however.
My Shepard never said anything remotely similar to that and I didn't even have her loyalty (sided with Jack) and yet she'd still do a complete 180 in her belifes and opt to destroy the base.

(As I've said before) I think its just an excuse to have her stay on the Normandy post SM regardless of ones choices.

Modifié par GodWood, 18 octobre 2010 - 12:32 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

They (your squad) don't trust TIM... I don't either. However, TIM is the only ones taking the Reapers seriously through action (Anderson tries talking but is being shunned/rendered useless). I just don't see the consequences of what TIM would do as avoidable... besides, he's an enemy of the Council and someone that'll need to be stopped eventually.

All I see by keeping the base are opportunities.

As far as the Collector Base, I'd say the squad's reactions are emotional or forgetfull of the Reaper threat.

Example:
Should you choose to keep the base, Miranda shows where her emotional state is. She tells you that she hopes "whatever Cerberus finds at that base was worth it."

In other words, she felt the place itself was an abomination and wanted to destroy it because it sickened her regarding what was done. It wasn't a logical response... just an emotional one.

Other squad members don't trust TIM (based on what they heard and actions performed) while others again are just walking contradictions (like Legion).


P.S:  Miranda says the same thing about Shepard at the beginning of the game.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 18 octobre 2010 - 06:35 .

[gamestress]

As a person who just finished one play through, I do feel a bit bamboozled into keeping it. My second PT will destroy. I have to do all major options anyway, but I was WTF when questioned about my decision afterwards. Ugh

[MisterDyslexo]

I got tricked by Bioware and poor writing. They do what they always do, present the pros and cons of both choices. The Paragon decision is usually the one that plays it safe and it best in the long run, whereas the Renegade is either risky of self-gratifying. To blow up the base, which would likely save millions, maybe billions of lives, to feel a little good about yourself doesn't seem paragon to me. They did the same thing with the geth rewrite/destruction in Legion's loyalty mission.

And the walking contradiction squadmates I don't get. Loyalty could've played a role in how they reacted. Also I can't see some characters actually in support of blowing it up. Legion has no real ethics, and Garrus is more than willing to sacrifice a little face for the destruction of the Reapers (reminds me of how he reacted to Dr. Saleon escaping from C-Sec).

Modifié par MisterDyslexo, 18 octobre 2010 - 08:58 .

[jbblue05]

Miranda was way out of character at the CB.
The Cerberus cheerleader the person who nonstop defends Cerberus throughout the entire game but doesn't want Cerberus to have the base.
Even after seeing Teltin facility first-hand she still defends Cerberus believing the cell went rogue.
The collector ship ambush she believes TIM had a good reason .
She trusts Cerberus to hide her sister
Asks Shepard to officially join Cerberus.
obsessed with Cerberus
Their is no inkling of her second-guessing TIM or Cerberus motives and tactics..
Her wanting to destroy the base is a big WTF moment.

Miranda should've leaned towards keeping the base and disagreeing with Shepard but falling in-line.
Miranda should support Shepard no mater what decision he makes if she is romanced.

[Caihn]

I disagree.

Her behaviour during the suicide mission is absolutely IC. And the fact that she acts the same way even if she's not loyal, proves that she's an independant and intelligent woman. She's not influenced by Shepard and she has her own opinion about this.

Her resignation and the fact that she approves the destruction of the base are parts of her character development.

Definitely the best Miranda's moment in the game, after her romance.

[Markinator_123]

Yannkee wrote...

I disagree.
Her behaviour during the suicide mission is absolutely IC. And the fact that she acts the same way even if she's not loyal, proves that she's an independant and intelligent woman. She's not influenced by Shepard and she has her own opinion about this.
Her resignation and the fact that she approves the destruction of the base are parts of her character development.
Definitely the best Miranda's moment in the game, after her romance.

What part of her character development was she doubting Cerberus? Nobody has given any evidence whatsoever

[Schattenkeil]

jbblue05 wrote...

She trusts Cerberus to hide her sister

A circumstance I am seriously uncomfortable with. And I bet, since the conflict with the Illusive Man, Miranda is as well. I would certainly ask Liara to have someone keep an eye out for Oriana and her Cerberus shadows. I  am not sure whether this will be a topic in Mass Effect 3, but I'd certainly be curious.

My paragon Shepard may disagree with Miranda in many ways, but one thing's for sure. One for all and all for one. I will not let her or her sister down.

[MisterDyslexo]

Schattenkeil wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

She trusts Cerberus to hide her sister

A circumstance I am seriously uncomfortable with. And I bet, since the conflict with the Illusive Man, Miranda is as well. I would certainly ask Liara to have someone keep an eye out for Oriana and her Cerberus shadows. I  am not sure whether this will be a topic in Mass Effect 3, but I'd certainly be curious.

My paragon Shepard may disagree with Miranda in many ways, but one thing's for sure. One for all and all for one. I will not let her or her sister down.

A problem with that is that apparently Cerbeus has gotten rid of all the leaks in its network. Only briefly mentioned in the mission summary, but its still there...

[Ieldra]

I can't believe I haven't already posted in this thread.

Yes, I find some of the reactions bad writing. Most especially Miranda's reaction *at* the base. When she supported destroying the base with that infamous statement "it feels like a betrayal", I immediate went "WTF? That isn't Miranda speaking." I think that her resigning was a contrived way of keeping her available as an LI for Paragon players after they broke with TIM.

Definitely the worst Miranda moment in the game. She comes across as impulsive in a matter that could doom the galaxy, not pragmatic (the base is a first class strategic resource), stupid (not acknowledging that it is a resource, regardless whether she thinks it's worth it), and disregarding that resigning from Cerberus can cost her sister her protection. Completely OOC. If there is ever a moment in the game to not be impulsive, to think things over in the way that's actually an important part of her personality, then it's this one. That Miranda gets more emotional in some situations is OK, that she does it here absolutely is not.

As for her doubting Cerberus: on the Collector ship mission, she expresses doubts, but only if you choose "He betrayed us" with regard to TIM. If you refuse judgment at this point, she says nothing. It's a very small thing you need to blow out of proportion to make it mean anything. Consider this: before you start the suicide mission, she recommends not going after the crew if you have open loyalty missions. On the suicide mission itself, she recommends not sending a team member back with the crew, and that immediately after finding what happens to the Collectors' victims, about five minutes before the decision about the base? Why has she suddenly lost her pragmatism? It's a contrivance, both for pushing the decision Bioware obviously and heavy-handedly promotes as the "right" one, in spite of all assurances to the contrary. It's character derailment to pander to conventional (and irrational) morality.

Edit:
Note I actually appreciate the option to make her resign - but I don't like that she has to act like she can't think at the base, and I don't like that *I* have to do what I consider stupid to do so. Some more thought should have gone into this.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 octobre 2010 - 10:22 .

[Elyvern]

^^ Absolutely this. Especially her response about not going after the crew and not sending an escort back. Put them back to back with her sudden change in personality at destroying the base and there is no way to see that she was in character at all.

[Thompson family]

Not a bad topic and not a bad discussion, either. My two cents:



1. The psychological impact of seeing that colonist melt before your eyes must be sobering — and that's the best case scenario, if you rescue the rescue the crew. It must give even a Cerberus "cheerleader" like Miranda pause.



2. I make it a point in my playthroughs to take Jack on Miranda's loyalty mission and Miranda on Jack's loyalty mission. Part of my Shepard's job is to foster unit cohesion. A big part of that is to break through the hostility each of them has for the other. While that provokes a crisis, it let's Miranda see that Jack isn't just mindlessly hostile, that Cerberus' pro-human agenda can lead to horrible consequences for individual humans, and it let's Jack see Miranda as something other that a cold-hearted Cerberus b****. I also take Miranda on the Overlord mission so she can see the same thing.



Therefore, Miranda's sudden shift isn't as out-of-place as it could seem.



(I take Tali on Legion's loyalty mission for the same reason.)



3. Re: OP. Blowing up the base is the "right" decision. BioWare clearly says decisions you make in ME2 can have a huge impact in ME3. Well, there are no bigger decisions in the game than this one.



A "decision" that leads to the same result whatever happens isn't a decision at all. It has no consequences. I think if you leave the base intact, TIM is going to make you regret it.

[ODST 3]

MisterDyslexo wrote...
To blow up the base, which would likely save millions, maybe billions of lives, to feel a little good about yourself doesn't seem paragon to me.

I'd like to know just how the base will save billions? It takes billions to be melted down simply to create one Reaper, which won't be enough to stop the fleet. If you take the base, you're going to have to KILL billions just to make it work!

[MisterDyslexo]

ODST 3 wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...
To blow up the base, which would likely save millions, maybe billions of lives, to feel a little good about yourself doesn't seem paragon to me.

I'd like to know just how the base will save billions? It takes billions to be melted down simply to create one Reaper, which won't be enough to stop the fleet. If you take the base, you're going to have to KILL billions just to make it work!

Not to make a reaper. I know thats what they sorta do in the book, but I'm talking about things like reverse-engineering. And even disregarding the Reapers, there is SO much genetic information & technology on that station that could change the practice of medicine, the study of xenobiology, etc.

[ODST 3]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

ODST 3 wrote...

MisterDyslexo wrote...
To blow up the base, which would likely save millions, maybe billions of lives, to feel a little good about yourself doesn't seem paragon to me.

I'd like to know just how the base will save billions? It takes billions to be melted down simply to create one Reaper, which won't be enough to stop the fleet. If you take the base, you're going to have to KILL billions just to make it work!

Not to make a reaper. I know thats what they sorta do in the book, but I'm talking about things like reverse-engineering. And even disregarding the Reapers, there is SO much genetic information & technology on that station that could change the practice of medicine, the study of xenobiology, etc.

How do you know this? All we know is, it's just a Reaper factory.

[Dean_the_Young]

It's the Collector Base.



Where the Collectors keep their technology.



Technology that, throughout the game, has extremely potent genetic applications: Grunt's pod and construction, the redesign of the Protheans, the race-specific seeker swarms, the Omega plague, advanced husk design technology into abominations, scions, and praetorians, the actual process of liquifying organics into super materials.



And that's just the genetic aspects.

[ODST 3]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It's the Collector Base.

Where the Collectors keep their technology.

Technology that, throughout the game, has extremely potent genetic applications: Grunt's pod and construction, the redesign of the Protheans, the race-specific seeker swarms, the Omega plague, advanced husk design technology into abominations, scions, and praetorians, the actual process of liquifying organics into super materials.

And that's just the genetic aspects.

All of that tech is used for sinister application throughout the game. What does that have to do with medical advances and defeating the Reapers?

We don't need to know more about the Collectors. They're done.

[SmokePants]

Paragon Sheperd is a people pleaser and craves approval. Renegade doesn't give a crap what anyone else thinks. I see nothing wrong with the way they handled it.

[Dean_the_Young]

ODST 3 wrote...

All of that tech is used for sinister application throughout the game. What does that have to do with medical advances and defeating the Reapers?

We don't need to know more about the Collectors. They're done.

I honestly can't tell if you're clueless, trolling, or simply a brilliant actor feigning ignorance.

Never one to assume malice or stupidity when extreme competence will do, I salute your clever double-play!

[Markinator_123]

Stay on topic people! This is about the squadmate reaction to the decision not about the actual decision itself.

[ODST 3]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

ODST 3 wrote...

All of that tech is used for sinister application throughout the game. What does that have to do with medical advances and defeating the Reapers?

We don't need to know more about the Collectors. They're done.

I honestly can't tell if you're clueless, trolling, or simply a brilliant actor feigning ignorance.

Never one to assume malice or stupidity when extreme competence will do, I salute your clever double-play!

I don't get it, you didn't answer the question. I'm not intentionally slowing the conversation down but I require specifics. The base is useless without a specific use besides turning sentient life forms into gray goo.

[Dean_the_Young]

ODST 3 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

ODST 3 wrote...

All of that tech is used for sinister application throughout the game. What does that have to do with medical advances and defeating the Reapers?

We don't need to know more about the Collectors. They're done.

I honestly can't tell if you're clueless, trolling, or simply a brilliant actor feigning ignorance.

Never one to assume malice or stupidity when extreme competence will do, I salute your clever double-play!

I don't get it, you didn't answer the question. I'm not intentionally slowing the conversation down but I require specifics. The base is useless without a specific use besides turning sentient life forms into gray goo.

See people? isn't he a master at this subterfuge?


Though, to be honest, it should be continued in the Collector Base thread: keep it on topic and all. But he's here all night, folks!