110 réponses à ce sujet

[NanQuan]

Since you only get those conversations after everything is said and done, yeah I figured it was Bioware's way of telling you what the right choice was. Should it have been that way? Probably not, but personally it didn't bother me. Mostly because I think Bioware has been shouting what the right answer was for a long time (if you look at redundant themes in the game) and trying to steer players towards a particular outlook; specifically, that using reaper technology plays straight into the Reapers hands (tentacles?). It just reaffirmed what I understood to be one of the dominant messages in the games.



But I understand some people didn't see it that way, so I can see why they'd be pissed.

[ODST 3]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

ODST 3 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

ODST 3 wrote...

All of that tech is used for sinister application throughout the game. What does that have to do with medical advances and defeating the Reapers?

We don't need to know more about the Collectors. They're done.

I honestly can't tell if you're clueless, trolling, or simply a brilliant actor feigning ignorance.

Never one to assume malice or stupidity when extreme competence will do, I salute your clever double-play!

I don't get it, you didn't answer the question. I'm not intentionally slowing the conversation down but I require specifics. The base is useless without a specific use besides turning sentient life forms into gray goo.

See people? isn't he a master at this subterfuge?


Though, to be honest, it should be continued in the Collector Base thread: keep it on topic and all. But he's here all night, folks!

Trying to rally others to your cause is a sign of insecurity. Give me facts if you're so sure.

[Dean_the_Young]

I fear (well, not fear, but respect) the mod to keep on topic. There's a nice dedicated thread overthere, so if you need it explained why proven genetic knowledge and technology could be used to galactic benefit...

[Mr. Gogeta34]

In the end, regarding Miranda. She was just scared for her life and disgusted at what was done in the base to want to look at it again when it was all over.



That seems to be the extent of it.



Legion aspires to achieve "understanding" and "transcendence" yet doesn't suggest you get to understand the Reaper's technology? He also feels they should walk their own paths... yet wears a piece of Shepard's human armor. (A walking contradiction... or... planning to make the Geth ascendant themselves).

[Giggles_Manically]

Why does Legion change his mind?



Because at the base he says:

This base is data, destroying it will not bring back those who were lost, but it may save lives later.



However when you destroy it he says:

An interesting choice Shepard-Commander, you were offered everything the Geth aspire to, true unity understanding, yet you rejected it and chose to achieve your goals on your own, you are more like the Geth than we realized.



I dont get it, they dont have anything to do with the other. In one he wants to keep the base, yet says "Oh now you are like Geth! So blowing the base is all good!"

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Should you keep the base (and you romanced her), Miranda tells you that she's "dealing with a few loose ends for Cerberus."...AFTER SHE RESIGNED.







//cue conspiracy music

[Geowil]

Geowil wrote...

OverlordNexas wrote...

Yeah I didn't like it either, and thats coming from someone who always destroys the base. What's even more annoying is that some of them will recommend keeping the base during the mission, but will tell you it was the right idea to destroy it afterwords.

I get what you are saying, but are you suggesting that they can not change their minds on a subject?  I think that after TIM almost orders you to save the base and not destroy it that it would be enough reason for them to change their minds.

After just finishing the game I would also like to add that there is a long delay of time between when you finish the mission and when you are able to talk with the crew again as the Normandy is repaired.

[GodWood]

NanQuan wrote...
Since you only get those conversations after everything is said and done, yeah I figured it was Bioware's way of telling you what the right choice was. Should it have been that way? Probably not, but personally it didn't bother me. Mostly because I think Bioware has been shouting what the right answer was for a long time (if you look at redundant themes in the game) and trying to steer players towards a particular outlook; specifically, that using reaper technology plays straight into the Reapers hands (tentacles?). It just reaffirmed what I understood to be one of the dominant messages in the games.

But I understand some people didn't see it that way, so I can see why they'd be pissed.

The Mass Relays are Reaper technology.
The Citadel is Reaper technology.
The Normandy SR2 is Reaper technology.
EDI is Reaper technoilogy.
Thanix cannons are Reaper technology.

need I go on?

[Schattenkeil]

The mass relays are relatively harmless devices, meant to control the way species spread throughout the galaxy. The worst the reapers could do with them is probably to shut them all down. There is no guarantee of that of course, but it's the only practical approach.

The Citadel is indeed dangerous and if I could tell everyone to leave it and then blow it up, I would. However, since the keepers don't seem to be indoctrinated anymore it's only a latent threat, the citadel is meant to be a trap and it can't spring right now. If you managed to shut down the Citadel you'd shut that door for the reapers once and for all, and that would be a good thing.

EDI may be based on reaper technology, but she's an exception of the rule. She has proven herself.

The thanix cannon design principle may be borrowed from from Sovereign, but it is not beyond turian technology. They just got the idea of the basic function principle from sovereign, actually creating it doesn't require reaper technology.

Even EDI wasn't created out of a working reaper base meant to control indictrinated, create husks and war machines and consume people for that purpose, but out of a [i]scraps]/i] of a destroyed reaper. In other words: Whatever EDI technology has flown into EDI's design was in fact no less blown up as the collector base. Lady Benezia and Saren have demonstrated in a spectecular way that studying living reaper technology is not a bright idea. Cerberus is free to study the scraps of the reaper base at any time, if they wish. If they manage to create a second IFF. The first thing I would be doing after the suicide mission is to disconnect it and lock it somewhere safe.

Modifié par Schattenkeil, 19 octobre 2010 - 07:27 .

[GodWood]

Schattenkeil wrote...
snip.

You missed my point.
NanQuan said the message Bioware has been telling us is "that using reaper technology plays straight into the Reapers hands", I was just proving that is not the case.

[Lord_Caledore]

I found it poor writing, absolutely, since some squad-mates completely contradict what they say at the base, and it's just out of character for certain characters to disagree with the decision. It would have made much more sense if certain squadmates favored blowing it up, while others favored keeping it. It's more in-line with their dialogue at the base and with their individual personalities.It does feel like the game is trying to push one decision as the 'correct' one, though ultimately ME3 will be the real determining factor in whether one choice was better than the other.



And Miranda's sudden shift in personality made no sense to me. There was no build-up or arc of Miranda slowly coming to believe that perhaps Cerberus is wrong...it just appeared out of the blue. I suppose the best way to explain it, as some already have, is that it's an emotional response to the horrors she's seen at the base, but given Miranda's strong-willed personality, I still don't see her reacting so negatively to it and Cerberus' use of it.

[Xilizhra]

NanQuan said the message Bioware has been telling us is "that using reaper technology plays straight into the Reapers hands", I was just proving that is not the case.

Actually, using mass relays and the Citadel was playing into the Reapers' hands; we only survived out of sheer luck. The other three things were salvage from an utterly destroyed Reaper, not a fully intact base.

[NanQuan]

GodWood wrote...

NanQuan wrote...
Since you only get those conversations after everything is said and done, yeah I figured it was Bioware's way of telling you what the right choice was. Should it have been that way? Probably not, but personally it didn't bother me. Mostly because I think Bioware has been shouting what the right answer was for a long time (if you look at redundant themes in the game) and trying to steer players towards a particular outlook; specifically, that using reaper technology plays straight into the Reapers hands (tentacles?). It just reaffirmed what I understood to be one of the dominant messages in the games.

But I understand some people didn't see it that way, so I can see why they'd be pissed.

The Mass Relays are Reaper technology.
The Citadel is Reaper technology.
The Normandy SR2 is Reaper technology.
EDI is Reaper technoilogy.
Thanix cannons are Reaper technology.

need I go on?

Using Mass relays caused species to develop along the paths that the Reapers desired. The citadel was a giant trap (and a mass relay).  The Normandy used some inspiration like EDI and the thanix cannon, but these were not taken directly from the Reapers.  The base is pure Reaper technology, much like the relays and the citadel, both of which turned out to be dangerous.

[Dean_the_Young]

Nan, are you intending to argue that the Reapers intended for their Vanguard to be killed, a man brought back from the dead, the Collector Ship trap foiled, a Derilect Reaper found and robbed, the Reaper IFF overcome, the Omega 4 relay passed, the Collector Base invaded, and the Human Reaper destroyed...



...so that the base could be kept, because it is a path the Reapers desire?

[Markinator_123]

Once again, please stay on topic!

Modifié par Markinator_123, 19 octobre 2010 - 07:57 .

[NanQuan]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Nan, are you intending to argue that the Reapers intended for their Vanguard to be killed, a man brought back from the dead, the Collector Ship trap foiled, a Derilect Reaper found and robbed, the Reaper IFF overcome, the Omega 4 relay passed, the Collector Base invaded, and the Human Reaper destroyed...

...so that the base could be kept, because it is a path the Reapers desire?

Haha, no certainly not. The only point I wish to make is what I think Bioware is trying to get across.  I think you'll agree that logic isn't always... forthcoming in some parts of the game and I think this is because there is a storytelling agenda at work.  I think Bioware has a point they want to make - particularly in regards to self-determination - and so a lot of the writing reflects that. Basically, I believe that they want the player to conclude that the best path is to set themselves apart from all the civilizatons before and find a new way of defeating the Reapers that doesn't involve using their technology.

EDIT: To bring this back on topic: I wouldn't classify this as nessecarily bad writing, but a literary choice nonetheless. I think the choice was deliberate. Whether it was effective is debatable.

Modifié par NanQuan, 19 octobre 2010 - 07:52 .

[Ieldra]

NanQuan wrote...
EDIT: To bring this back on topic: I wouldn't classify this as nessecarily bad writing, but a literary choice nonetheless. I think the choice was deliberate. Whether it was effective is debatable.

For those who think the premise technology shouldn't cross species barriers is bull****, it's certainly not at all effective. I'm annoyed that the game tries to enforce a point I absolutely do not believe in and could possibly even prove wrong within the contect of the ME universe. The team members' opinions are just the last straw.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 octobre 2010 - 08:04 .

[Dean_the_Young]

The game hammered us with a need to gather tech from as many sources as possible, rather than stick to what 'we' have. Half the mission-critical upgrades are from other species, and tech scans, including from the Collectors, are the primary means of extra funding... to buy more upgrades from more alien providers.

[Jabarai]

Ieldra2 wrote...
For those who think the premise technology shouldn't cross species barriers is bull****, it's certainly not at all effective. I'm annoyed that the game tries to enforce a point I absolutely do not believe in and could possibly even prove wrong within the contect of the ME universe.

Perhaps it would help to take a step back and reconsider if that really is the point the game is trying to get across? I very much doubt it is.

The team members' opinions are just the last straw.

You probably think that way because you presume you're correct as to "the point". Maybe they've simply changed their minds after seeing the human reaper and all the atrocities in the base? Maybe they've had a debrief where they've had an opportunity to exchange thoughts?

[Phaedon]

I am sorry, to point this out, but come on, 'bad writing' ? Because of a small inconsistency ? This is a video game and we treat it as if it's a book.

[Dean_the_Young]

It's an interactive story. Bioware takes great pride in boasting about it's story. A large part of Mass Effect's success is the emphasis on the storytelling in it. It's a point of Bioware's public pride with the series.



Yes, knocking lapses is fair game.

[Exile Isan]

What, exactly, do your companions say back on the ship if you hand the base over to TIM? Do they express concern about keeping it in general or concern about you handing it over to Cerberus?

[Ieldra]

Exile Isan wrote...
What, exactly, do your companions say back on the ship if you hand the base over to TIM? Do they express concern about keeping it in general or concern about you handing it over to Cerberus?

I don't recall all of them, but Garrus and Mordin - who said we should keep it earlier - express concern about handing it to Cerberus. Legion expresses concern that we - meaning humans - might use the knowledge in the base to gain "unity and transcendence". Miranda says in a doubtful voice that she hopes whatever is in the base is worth it.

[mopotter]

I can't say it bothered me, probably because I always blow it up. But I do think it would have been good if some of the crew thought you should have kept it, just not sure who that would have been.



Miranda and Jacob would have been the logical choices, even if they supported you when you blow it up, they could question the decision when you talked to them, even just saying they hope you don't regret it later. Maybe Zaeed.



The others, disliked/distrust Cerberus and I don't see any of them disagreeing with blowing it up rather than giving it to Cerberus.

[Dean_the_Young]

Grunt, Zaeed,Garrus, Miranda,possibly even Samara.